[sia rezaei]

  Thanks! Both speakers were driven since I don't know how to configure REW to only drive one at a time, the microphone was level in height with the middle of the speakers at the edge of the desk; the speakers are set back 14" and 30" apart, toed in to point directly at the mic. Room is very large being in one corner of a loft with 2 story high ceilings and an open living + dining + working area. Desk is set against window but there's a good 18" of distance between them and the back of the speakers.
 
BTW, just ordered a calibrated mic from parts-express so I'll be redoing the measurements with it when it comes. I'll be comparing the last run and also against the setup with a ProSub800 underneath. The ProSub makes a huge difference with the low end as is to be expected.

I just found out about REW 3 days ago. It looks powerful for a freeware. The type of measurement for measuring speakers is different from those of measuring rooms. For speaker measurement you should test one speaker. In Windows, I mute the other channel by adjusting the balance in Windows' Sound settings. 
Also, if you want to measure the speaker more accurately without the influence of the room, you should do a gated measurement. It would get rid of the irregularities you have been getting here.
There is a good explanation of how do it with REW on miniDSP's website here. The downside of measuring speakers indoors is that you can't get accurate bass response.
Basically the lowest frequency that you can measure with accuracy is (speed of sound)/(length of the shortest path for reflected sound). For example, if the floor is the closest surface and the path length from the speaker to floor and back to mic is 2 meters, then your measurement won't be good below 170Hz. 
When I want to take more accurate bass measurements. I go outside (on a sunny day ), set the mic and speaker 3 meter off the ground, and 10 meters from other reflecting surfaces. 
 
I wish we could see more measurements in audio forums. I think it would settle a lot of arguments such as the one we have had here for the past couple of days

 

[cel4145]

The downside of measuring speakers indoors is that you can't get accurate bass response.
Basically the lowest frequency that you can measure with accuracy is (speed of sound)/(length of the shortest path for reflected sound). For example, if the floor is the closest surface and the path length from the speaker to floor and back to mic is 2 meters, then your measurement won't be good below 170Hz. 
When I want to take more accurate bass measurements. I go outside (on a sunny day ), set the mic and speaker 3 meter off the ground, and 10 meters from other reflecting surfaces. 

I wish we could see more measurements in audio forums. I think it would settle a lot of arguments such as the one we have had here for the past couple of days

This is good advice for direct radiating speakers.

But the Inclines are bipolar. In addition to the front tweeter, midrange driver, and passive bass radiator, they have a rear firing full range driver:
https://www.definitivetech.com/products/incline (see specs)

It would be very difficult to measure them accurately individually using typical anechoic measurement processes because the rear driver is meant to reflect off boundaries. So measuring them properly setup from a listening position is probably the only way to get a realistic sense of how they measure.

 

[sia rezaei]

This is good advice for direct radiating speakers.

But the Inclines are bipolar. In addition to the front tweeter, midrange driver, and passive bass radiator, they have a rear firing full range driver:
https://www.definitivetech.com/products/incline (see specs)

It would be very difficult to measure them accurately individually using typical anechoic measurement processes because the rear driver is meant to reflect off boundaries. So measuring them properly setup from a listening position is probably the only way to get a realistic sense of how they measure.

You are right, bipolar are a bit messy that way. They interact with the room more than a direct radiating speaker. I have never measured bipolars, so I don't know what the best approach is. Maybe a listening window average?
But in the bass and lower midrange region, they should be identical to direct radiating speakers. 

 

[cel4145]

You are right, bipolar are a bit messy that way. They interact with the room more than a direct radiating speaker. I have never measured bipolars, so I don't know what the best approach is. Maybe a listening window average?
But in the bass and lower midrange region, they should be identical to direct radiating speakers. 

It depends on how "full range" that rear driver is. Unlikely it's doing a lot for bass, but could be adding to midrange.

 

[enkidu]

  I just found out about REW 3 days ago. It looks powerful for a freeware. The type of measurement for measuring speakers is different from those of measuring rooms. For speaker measurement you should test one speaker. In Windows, I mute the other channel by adjusting the balance in Windows' Sound settings. 
Also, if you want to measure the speaker more accurately without the influence of the room, you should do a gated measurement. It would get rid of the irregularities you have been getting here.
There is a good explanation of how do it with REW on miniDSP's website here. The downside of measuring speakers indoors is that you can't get accurate bass response.
Basically the lowest frequency that you can measure with accuracy is (speed of sound)/(length of the shortest path for reflected sound). For example, if the floor is the closest surface and the path length from the speaker to floor and back to mic is 2 meters, then your measurement won't be good below 170Hz. 
When I want to take more accurate bass measurements. I go outside (on a sunny day ), set the mic and speaker 3 meter off the ground, and 10 meters from other reflecting surfaces. 
 
I wish we could see more measurements in audio forums. I think it would settle a lot of arguments such as the one we have had here for the past couple of days

Thanks! That is some great information! My mic should be arriving in a few days and I'll be able to do a few passes, hopefully mono and mono+sub measurements with 20-20k sweeps and perhaps different mic positions (above desk, close in, far back, above speakers, below desk etc). At least until the SO puts the foot down. REW is very cool, able to generate sweeps and tones, different color noise etc. All the other stuff I found was at least $40 to start, and $100+ for any decent capability.
 
As for anechoic measurements, that isn't a high priority for me. I'm interested in measuring how stuff sounds in my setup, not so much testing audio equipment for their theoretical performance, although here finding sunny days is never a problem . Finding a large quiet open space with power + no noise restrictions, not so simple. I recall that Apple has a bunch of completely crazy anechoic rooms where they test electronics. They'd be perfect for speaker testing. However, 'twould be tricky to sneak into them for testing, even for an Apple employee.

 

[cel4145]

Thanks! That is some great information! My mic should be arriving in a few days and I'll be able to do a few passes, hopefully mono and mono+sub measurements with 20-20k sweeps and perhaps different mic positions (above desk, close in, far back, above speakers, below desk etc). At least until the SO puts the foot down. REW is very cool, able to generate sweeps and tones, different color noise etc. All the other stuff I found was at least $40 to start, and $100+ for any decent capability.

As for anechoic measurements, that isn't a high priority for me. I'm interested in measuring how stuff sounds in my setup, not so much testing audio equipment for their theoretical performance, although here finding sunny days is never a problem . Finding a large quiet open space with power + no noise restrictions, not so simple. I recall that Apple has a bunch of completely crazy anechoic rooms where they test electronics. They'd be perfect for speaker testing. However, 'twould be tricky to sneak into them for testing, even for an Apple employee.

You should try using REW for what it is generally used for--smoothing the frequency response using EQ at the primary listening position. You'll need a tripod to position your mic where your head would be, though

 

[enkidu]

You should try using REW for what it is generally used for--smoothing the frequency response using EQ at the primary listening position. You'll need a tripod to position your mic where your head would be, though

I see how it is; first I do a few measurements, then I get a tripod and set up EQ on my laptop, then before I know it, I'm installing an 8x8 miniDSP and multi-channel amp, bi-amping my speakers, and spending weekends with a mic and laptop tweaking my home theater setup. I'm on to you Interwebs!

 

 

[cel4145]

I see how it is; first I do a few measurements, then I get a tripod and set up EQ on my laptop, then before I know it, I'm installing an 8x8 miniDSP and multi-channel amp, bi-amping my speakers, and spending weekends with a mic and laptop tweaking my home theater setup. I'm on to you Interwebs!  

No need for a miniDSP. Equalizer APO!

http://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/ :etysmile:

 

[sia rezaei]

It depends on how "full range" that rear driver is. Unlikely it's doing a lot for bass, but could be adding to midrange.

What I was trying to say is that at low frequencies, it actually doesn't matter how much the "full range" contributes to the bass, a bipolar speakers would still be identical to a direct radiating speaker, because at low frequencies sound will be dispersed uniformly.
 
btw, have you used REW to do what enkidu is trying to do here? If yes, I'm curious to see what your experience has been.

 

[cel4145]

What I was trying to say is that at low frequencies, it actually doesn't matter how much the "full range" contributes to the bass, a bipolar speakers would still be identical to a direct radiating speaker, because at low frequencies sound will be dispersed uniformly.

Eh...wonder if that's true when it comes to taking anechoic measurements. I've seen discussions about how difficult it is to take readings from dual driver opposing subs, for example.

btw, have you used REW to do what enkidu is trying to do here? If yes, I'm curious to see what your experience has been.

I'm not sure on what he's trying to do here

 

[sia rezaei]

Eh...wonder if that's true when it comes to taking anechoic measurements. I've seen discussions about how difficult it is to take readings from dual driver opposing subs, for example.
I'm not sure on what

To be honest, now that I think about it I have never tried to measure my speakers from extreme angles! Ahh if only we had this discussion a week earlier, I would have taken measurements from side and back of my speakers when I was in the field last Thursday. I'll do it next time  
 
 

You should try using REW for what it is generally used for--smoothing the frequency response using EQ at the primary listening position. You'll need a tripod to position your mic where your head would be, though

 
I thought you might have done this 

 

[cel4145]

I thought you might have done this 

I have measured, but I use Audyssey MultEQ and an Antimode with my primary home audio setup. One day, maybe I'll get a different receiver that has better EQ capability

 

[enkidu]

Pox, measurements are on hold for now. The mic arrived, but is not recognized by my MacBook Pro. Interface should be TRRS, but doesn't work. Verified that standard Apple headphone does work so the socket is ok. Looking more closely at the documentation the mic (Dayton Audio iMM-6) specifies as designed for Android and Apple Devices, but the web page seems to mean Apple iOS devices, not Mac devices. Gah. I do have a Yamaha YPAO mic which came with my home theater amp and I think it'll fit in the Apogee One with a 1/4" adapter. Will try that when I get a chance.

 

[enkidu]

Did a few measurements with Yamaha setup mic through the Apogee One. For all the measurements, The upper frequencies on all three graphs are pretty uniformly crappy. I'm still not sure the cause of this. First two measurements were taken more or less where my head is when I'm working. I turned off the left channel by unplugging it. The first is the right Incline only, no sub.

The Inclines alone definitely don't have much beneath 40Hz, but have decent response above 50Hz.
 
Then I plugged in the ProSub800 which has been set to something around what seems to sound balanced with the Inclines:

As we can see, the response begins around 30Hz and is pretty good around 33Hz.

This last is with the ProSub800 connected and the mic placed very close to the sub:
 

 
Adding the ProSub800 definitely improves the response down to 33Hz or so. Nothing super low, but I wasn't expecting it to. Well worth the addition I think.
 

 

[cel4145]

Did a few measurements with Yamaha setup mic through the Apogee One. For all the measurements, The upper frequencies on all three graphs are pretty uniformly crappy. I'm still not sure the cause of this. First two measurements were taken more or less where my head is when I'm working. I turned off the left channel by unplugging it. The first is the right Incline only, no sub.


The Inclines alone definitely don't have much beneath 40Hz, but have decent response above 50Hz.

Then I plugged in the ProSub800 which has been set to something around what seems to sound balanced with the Inclines:


As we can see, the response begins around 30Hz and is pretty good around 33Hz.


This last is with the ProSub800 connected and the mic placed very close to the sub:





Adding the ProSub800 definitely improves the response down to 33Hz or so. Nothing super low, but I wasn't expecting it to. Well worth the addition I think.

That's good. Were you able to get the Dayton Audio iMM-6 to work, then?