[BobFiggins]

I'm still pretty darn new into the IEM/CIEM world. What is the importance of having more than one balanced armature in your earphone? 
 
I guess the way I would think of it, which may be wrong, is that balanced armatures that produce certain frequencies can sound better than one that can cover the whole spectrum. So you combine different balanced armatures that specialize in different frequencies to ensure each part of the frequency response sounds immaculate. 
 
Which would then make me wonder, can a high end headphone like the HD 800 with its single transducer be capable of thunderous lows if it still kept its absolute clarity and extension in the mids and treble? I seriously don't know this.
 
Why did the V shaped sound signature become a thing? Was it a limitation of speakers, and it became popular?
 
Assuming the A6 and A12 had the same sound signature/FR, what kind of sound differences should you be able to pick out? Would this require critical listening, or could the average person pick it out?
 
So many questions I've always wanted the answers to, but feel that they are really basic. Is this common knowledge to everyone else?
 
Be gentle.

 

[yxpoh]

  I'm still pretty darn new into the IEM/CIEM world. What is the importance of having more than one balanced armature in your earphone? 
 
I guess the way I would think of it, which may be wrong, is that balanced armatures that produce certain frequencies can sound better than one that can cover the whole spectrum. So you combine different balanced armatures that specialize in different frequencies to ensure each part of the frequency response sounds immaculate. 
 
Which would then make me wonder, can a high end headphone like the HD 800 with its single transducer be capable of thunderous lows if it still kept its absolute clarity and extension in the mids and treble? I seriously don't know this.
 
Why did the V shaped sound signature become a thing? Was it a limitation of speakers, and it became popular?
 
Assuming the A6 and A12 had the same sound signature/FR, what kind of sound differences should you be able to pick out? Would this require critical listening, or could the average person pick it out?
 
So many questions I've always wanted the answers to, but feel that they are really basic. Is this common knowledge to everyone else?
 
Be gentle.

 
I would most likely need someone verifying what I said, but..
 
regarding multiple BA, yes, they spread it out to the BAs to do different job, thats why they will say things like 2 lows, 1 mid, 1 high, meaning 2 BA for the low frequencies, 1 in mid freq, and 1 in high freq.
 
For the headphone, I am not sure if I get what you meant but the driver used in the headphone is different therefore it is capable of what multiple BAs can do, but of course since its a different type of driver, the signature will be different.
 
For V-shaped signature, rather than it being a thing, it just mean a sound that concentrates music of low and high freq, and not so much about the mids, if I am going to say it crudely. This usually means that the vocals aren't as clear as the instruments(really need someone to verify this)
 
Not sure if it is a limitation, but i think it is popularly most likely due to being able to hear the instruments, since they are usually in the lows and high range, where vocals is in the mids. So if you imagine a graph of frequency with a shape of a V. with frequency as the x axis and decibel for the y axis, i guess.
 
Regarding A6 and A12,
It really depends on yr hearing ability. I can't really explain this as it really depends on the person is sensitive to sound. and also the file used to play the music and whether the music itself has so much to be displayed.
 
Please do correct me if I am wrong as I also wished to learn from my mistakes.

 

[BobFiggins]

  regarding multiple BA, yes, they spread it out to the BAs to do different job, thats why they will say things like 2 lows, 1 mid, 1 high, meaning 2 BA for the low frequencies, 1 in mid freq, and 1 in high freq.
 
For the headphone, I am not sure if I get what you meant but the driver used in the headphone is different therefore it is capable of what multiple BAs can do, but of course since its a different type of driver, the signature will be different.
 
For V-shaped signature, rather than it being a thing, it just mean a sound that concentrates music of low and high freq, and not so much about the mids, if I am going to say it crudely. This usually means that the vocals aren't as clear as the instruments(really need someone to verify this)

 
I already understood these aspects. You seemed to answer the "what", but not the "why" part. It wasn't really answering my question because I already know what they stand for, but not the point, or meaning. I appreciate the time you took to write that though.
 
To be ultra clear, I know multiple armatures are used in different places like lows and highs, but what's the point if one really good armature can do it all? Like the Custom Art Music One. Never heard it so I can't really judge, but there must be a downside, right?

 

[yxpoh]

   
I already understood these aspects. You seemed to answer the "what", but not the "why" part. It wasn't really answering my question because I already know what they stand for, but not the point, or meaning. I appreciate the time you took to write that though.
 
To be ultra clear, I know multiple armatures are used in different places like lows and highs, but what's the point if one really good armature can do it all? Like the Custom Art Music One. Never heard it so I can't really judge, but there must be a downside, right?

 
I see. Sorry that I couldn't help.
 
I also do not have that knowledge, but if i think of it from the point of view, where every instrument has its own speakers, compared to 1 single speaker, I kinda understand why it might sound better, but that might be wrong..
 
Aside that,
 
Anyone knows the different between A6 and A12? and does a6 still some level of bass? lets compare it to Qi.

 

[KaminKevCrew]

   
I already understood these aspects. You seemed to answer the "what", but not the "why" part. It wasn't really answering my question because I already know what they stand for, but not the point, or meaning. I appreciate the time you took to write that though.
 
To be ultra clear, I know multiple armatures are used in different places like lows and highs, but what's the point if one really good armature can do it all? Like the Custom Art Music One. Never heard it so I can't really judge, but there must be a downside, right?

 
 

   
I see. Sorry that I couldn't help.
 
I also do not have that knowledge, but if i think of it from the point of view, where every instrument has its own speakers, compared to 1 single speaker, I kinda understand why it might sound better, but that might be wrong..
 
Aside that,
 
Anyone knows the different between A6 and A12? and does a6 still some level of bass? lets compare it to Qi.

heh... I went from my bed watching videos to the kitchen table to type this... This may take a while. 
 
Anyway, All transducer types have their own advantages and weaknesses. Since we are talking about IEMs, I will try to keep it in that realm, but I suppose I'll give a broad overview for now. I'm assuming that everyone knows the basic construction of each driver type, so that's a bit of background that you would need. 
 
Dynamic drivers are great. They are cheap to produce (I'm not talking about all of them, but there is a reason that $20 will only ever get you a dynamic driver), and they are very, very reliable, .and fairly durable. That being said, they are susceptible to resonance, due to the fact that you cannot create a perfectly rigid piece of plastic that thin, so it likes to have internal resonances across the surface that happen due to the diaphram moving. The natural resonant frequency is what creates those humps in impedance graphs for headphones (it's why things like the HD600/650 have 300-500+ Ohms of impedance at different frequencies.) And that can cause the headphones to have strange frequency responses, depending on the output impedance of the amp used.
 
Planar magnetic drivers, in contrast to dynamic drivers, almost always have laser-flat impedance graphs. That's because they have significantly different resonant frequencies, and their extreme light weight and thin-ness allow them to be supremely flat throughout the lows and mids, since their diaphrams essentially act as drums (hence why they are generally considered dark). 
 
Balanced Armature drivers tend to have some insane impedance graphs, because, well, I'm not exactly sure, I haven't gotten that far yet. 
 
Anyway, due to the small size of balanced armature drivers, they often have trouble with moving large amounts of air (which you need for bass). To remedy this, IEM/CIEM companies often pull a trick out of loudspeaker construction where you use multiple drivers to amplify a certain frequency. If all of the drivers in a section of the crossover (e.g. the four bass drivers in an A12) are all vibrating at the same frequency, and they all move the same direction at the same time, then they are said to be "in phase". This allows them to move significantly more air than a single one would have been able to on its own. That's why you almost always see more bass drivers than any other driver, assuming that they are not all of equal count (I find the A10 somewhat interesting in that regard, since it has two bass drivers and four of everything else). 
 
Now, balanced armature drivers are capable of being VERY, VERY accurate, but as a general rule, they are only able to reproduce accurate sound in a relatively small frequency range, before they fall off at either end. As such, most companies will introduce multiple drivers into their setup (That's also why many consider single BA IEMs to be bass light, and often somewhat lacking in the treble too). The trouble with multiple balanced armature setups, other than their being more expensive, is the crossover. This is why JH audio made such a big deal about their Freqphase thing. It makes sure that the drivers are all in phase with each other (across different sections of the crossover) so that all of the sound that should reach your ear at once, does. Now, from my understanding, a crossover filters out the low frequencies, and sends them to the low end drivers, before sending the rest of the signal on to be further filtered all the way up until the treble drivers get their signal. This (I believe, anyway) is why JH puts their treble drivers so much closer to the tip of the piece, instead of farther back into the shell (this is from what I've heard, anyway, since I have no experience with JH at all). Tuning for that is also very, very difficult, so there's another issue with them. Again though, if you're willing to pay the premium, you get better sound. 
 
I'm sorry if this is rather convoluted, and incomprehensible. I'm rather tired (It's past 2AM) and I didn't actually plan to write any of this... I may come back to it or make a post dedicated to all of this at a later time.
 
Anyway, if you're not satisfied, I hope that this pair of links will at least help with the understanding of multi-BA stuff:
https://brianli.com/in-ear-monitors-balanced-armature-drivers-vs-dynamic-drivers/
https://jhaudioblog.wordpress.com/2012/09/26/what-is-a-balanced-armature-driver/
 
(I scanned through these both, and they both were quite accurate in their content, so read up )
 
@yxpoh, I have no real experience with the Qi, but I can certainly say that my A6 is not lacking in bass in any way, at all. If you take a look back in the thread (I think I posted it around September 10th-15th, whatever page that is) I posted impressions of most of the line, since I had gone down to the 1964 lab on Friday the 4th of September to pick up my A6. 
 
 
@BobFiggins, According to |Joker|, the Music One is a vented balanced armature driver (Interestingly enough, the Final Audio Design Fi-BA-SS also uses a single vented BA driver, although it costs ~5X more). So I would think that the isolation would be somewhat lacking in comparison to a fully sealed IEM. Also, the frequency response of the music one is more focused on mids, and some on bass. According to Piotr (I talked to him about the prospect of my purchasing a music one) It sounds fairly similar to the Shure SE425 (which is cool, because it costs about the same, all told, I think). As such, according to many, I would guess that the Music One has some treble roll off. That assumption is backed up by the FR graphs on the CA website. If you look at the frequency response spec, it only goes from 10-18,300hz. That is certainly a pretty good FR spec, especially for a single BA driver, but you should note that that rating is a +-20dB rating, meaning that there is a significant fall off there (as backed up by looking at the graphs, which show a significant drop beyond about 10khz). 
 
^^^That being said about the Music One, Piotr gets massive props for posting not only the frequency response graphs, but also the equipment used, AND the SPL range used to determine the frequency response range. I appreciate that immensely. And I love that it's pretty much the second thing you see (after the picture, of course). That's absolutely awesome. I wish more companies would do this (looking at you 1964, especially since I know that you test the FR of all your in ears before you send them out)... 
 
As far as the sound of the music one... |joker| has reviewed them, and they rank very, very highly on the headphone list (something over 9.7/10 in sound quality, if I recall correctly), especially considering that they are about $220 USD at sticker price (That means I'm not including impressions, options, or shipping.)
 
hopefully that helps?
 
Also, as for the HD800 and thunderous lows; Being that the HD800 is a flagship headphone, it is designed to have as flat a FR as possible, and the HD800 is one of (if not the) best measuring dynamic headphones in the world. Sennheiser really,  really got it right. (Here is a rather cool powerpoint about flagship headphones. NOTE: It's rather harsh towards certain companies. I agree with it from a scientific point, however, I realize that many may find that I'm stepping on their toes. I don't mean to, I am linking it because I hope it helps answer some of the previous questions. Also, this is NOT my powerpoint. All credit goes to the original author (I apologize for not knowing who that is...)

 

[yxpoh]

Thanks! but comparing A6 to A12 specifically, is that possible?
 
And that was some info you provided!

 

[Antihippy]

There are makers like Final Audio Design that makes very well regarded single BA earphones.

 

[ezekiel77]

   
 
heh... I went from my bed watching videos to the kitchen table to type this... This may take a while. 
 

 
Respect to you man, for an amazingly thorough introductory explanation to earphone/headphone drivers 101. Should be required reading for everyone.

 

[BobFiggins]

 
*snip*

 
Thanks for writing that, good stuff! You have a lot of energy before going to bed!

 

[Steven R. Rochli]

Considering the U12 after reading a bit about them.  The ADEL technology intrigues me as a low-volume listener. Does anyone know how they compare to the beloved K10?  With the 15% discount for ADEL models there's not much reason price-wise for me to purchase the K10 over the U12.  

 
At low volume level the K10 seem to have a touch more deep bass. Am using the 64 Audio A12 more than the Noble K10 nowadays (with Double Helix top-line silver cable) yet I tend to listen at medium volume levels, and sometimes a bit more. Both the A12 and K10 are excellent, so I feel you can't go wrong either way. ADEL is really interesting if you're a musician and/or need to hear outside ambient sound too, such as being a musician and needing to hear the band (if your sound guy/gal isn't mixing it into your send/channel/IEMs). Did a review this month with more compare comments between the two at www.EnjoyTheMusic.com/magazine/equipment/1015/64_Audio_A12_Custom_In_Ear_Monitors_Review.htm

 

[KaminKevCrew]

Thanks everyone for the kind words, I'll see what I can do about making something a bit more thorough for people's reading, since I feel that my write up, up there didn't really capture everything.
 
Quote:

  Thanks! but comparing A6 to A12 specifically, is that possible?
 
And that was some info you provided!

Well, the A12 certainly has a darker presentation than the A6. The A6 is a nicely balanced headphone, and to my ears, they are about as neutral as the Sennheiser HD600 (which is high praise indeed). I think that if you're considering the flagship level 1964Ears, and you're looking for well balanced, you should go for the A10. The A10 has all of the low end extension of the A12, there simply isn't as much of the low end. It's still very much there, but it isn't invasive (That's not to say that the A12 has invasive bass, it's just that to my ears, the A10 is much more balanced.)
 
Basically, if you have the budget, and you want something that's as balanced as possible, go for the A10. If you want to save some money, but keep a very similar sound signature, then you should go for the A6. If you want something that's slightly darker, you should go for the A12, and if you want something that will sound similar, but you want to save a bit of money, I would go for the A8. 
 
Now this may just be specific to me, but I have always found that the A12 has something slightly off about it. To my ears, it sounds like the drivers are slightly out of phase with each other, so the A12 sounds just slightly weird. Now, that being said, BobFiggins and I seem to be the only ones that have that issue with them, so it may just be our ears, but I've had that issue with the two different A12s that I've listened to. Again, take that bit with a slightly large grain of salt, as it seems to be something that's fairly isolated to myself and BobFiggins. 
 
Hope that helps a bit more! 
 
Is there anything specific that you're looking for in a CIEM? That could help me recommend something in a more tailored fashion, since I have no idea what kind of sound you prefer. Also, what headphones/IEMs do you have experience with so far? I ask that, because some people's version of bass-heavy or treble-heavy can vary greatly depending on the headphone experience that they have had previously. 

 

[yxpoh]

  .............
 
Is there anything specific that you're looking for in a CIEM? That could help me recommend something in a more tailored fashion, since I have no idea what kind of sound you prefer. Also, what headphones/IEMs do you have experience with so far? I ask that, because some people's version of bass-heavy or treble-heavy can vary greatly depending on the headphone experience that they have had previously. 

 
thank you very much for going the extra mile to assist.
 
I am currently holding on to a Cosmic Ears BA4 F , should be a CE4 right now. F is supposedly the edition where the music is tuned to be "fun". I find my CE still slightly lacking in impact.
On my computer I am using a Grados Lab SR225i, though lacking the strong and impactfulness as the Denon D2000 that i previously have, but I love the music it produces.
 
I hope I make sense here.
 
I usually go for J-pop or anime songs, and OST of movies, anime series, games. 

 

[KaminKevCrew]

   
thank you very much for going the extra mile to assist.
 
I am currently holding on to a Cosmic Ears BA4 F , should be a CE4 right now. F is supposedly the edition where the music is tuned to be "fun". I find my CE still slightly lacking in impact.
On my computer I am using a Grados Lab SR225i, though lacking the strong and impactfulness as the Denon D2000 that i previously have, but I love the music it produces.
 
I hope I make sense here.
 
I usually go for J-pop or anime songs, and OST of movies, anime series, games. 

Well, I personally am a fan of pretty much the same stuff. I had the Denon D7000, so that's a common ground that we have, although I can't say that I've ever tried any of the other headphones that you have. 
 
Anyway, I find that the A6 has more than enough impact for my taste, although the A12/A8 would probably be more up your alley if you're looking for some deep, visceral impacts. Neither the A12 nor the A8, to my ears, ever bleed into the mids or drown out the highs, so I think you'd be pretty happy with either of those options. The A8 will probably be the most similar to the D2000, but it won't have all of the splashy, or bloated bass. The A8 will have all of the quantity (to my ears) of the DX000, but the quality is much higher. 
 
From what I'm hearing, I think you would love the A8 or the A12, although I think that the A8 will be more up your alley. 

 

[yxpoh]

  Well, I personally am a fan of pretty much the same stuff. I had the Denon D7000, so that's a common ground that we have, although I can't say that I've ever tried any of the other headphones that you have. 
 
Anyway, I find that the A6 has more than enough impact for my taste, although the A12/A8 would probably be more up your alley if you're looking for some deep, visceral impacts. Neither the A12 nor the A8, to my ears, ever bleed into the mids or drown out the highs, so I think you'd be pretty happy with either of those options. The A8 will probably be the most similar to the D2000, but it won't have all of the splashy, or bloated bass. The A8 will have all of the quantity (to my ears) of the DX000, but the quality is much higher. 
 
From what I'm hearing, I think you would love the A8 or the A12, although I think that the A8 will be more up your alley. 

 
Thanks! That really makes selection easier. But that said, it sound like you might like A8 more than yr current A6
 
Really thank you for the inputs you have given me.

 

[KaminKevCrew]

Thanks! That really makes selection easier. But that said, it sound like you might like A8 more than yr current A6

Really thank you for the inputs you have given me.

I got the a6, because it was all I could afford at the time... Also, I was looking for something with less bass than the D7k,which is exactly what I got, so I'm actually really quite pleased with them