[hoodlum]

After seeing the inside of the Rega Ear I will add this to the list.

Random Acts of Upgrades: The Rega EAR Gutted!

 

[atbglenn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp_hebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just thought it was unfair from Jamato to pinpoint a precise product (Grado RA-1) while most commercial audio amps cost way more than the sum of the individual parts, not just the Grado.

No amp is worth the sum of individual parts, but the RA-1 is an extreme case. I totally agree with Jamato


Would you pay $450 for this??

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp_hebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, for what it's worth, a Mini^3 should be about the same size as a SR-71A and cost less than 100$ in parts. My point was not about DIY vs commercial amps though, I just thought it was unfair from Jamato to pinpoint a precise product (Grado RA-1) while most commercial audio amps cost way more than the sum of the individual parts, not just the Grado.

Of course there is air in the price of every piece of equipment, thats where profits are made, but taking a basic cmoy (and trying to hide it under a pile of glue) and putting it in fancy box and selling it as high-end amp (and priced as such too) IS definetly questionable.


In any case, back to the thread. I thought M^3 is a very good and powerfull amplifier design and why it is so cheap is because its sold as DIY product mainly. If someone would start selling it comercially, I guess its price might very well be around GS-1? Thats the impression I got, when I considered buying one. Why I didnt get it was only because I wanted a discrete design amp.

 

[scootermafia]

Yeah, that Grado RA1 is horrific. It's all marketing and a fancy wood box filled with nothing. I'm sure you could plug some nice Grados into it and hear some great sound. That's because Grados sound good, not the amp. And CMOYs don't sound all that bad, they're better than nothing. It's a CMOY in a wood box and charging more than $150 for it is unethical. In fact, my CMOY is more overbuilt than it, it has a lot of bypass capacitance and a better op amp.

 

[Barry]

The debate about the Grado amp reminds me of a joke about a heating consultant who enters one of the biggest skyscrapers with a broken system. Nobody has been able to fix it. Nobody. So they called the consultant who pulls up in a limo, wearing a tux. He wanders through the bowels of the building for about five minutes, finally taking out a small wrench, turns a valve and leaves. The building is finally fixed and the consultant bills $50K.

The auditor challenges the bill and asks for an itemization. The itemized bill goes like this: turning a valve - $5.00. knowing which valve to turn, $49,995.

When I buy an amp, headphone, whatever, I am not buying the parts, I am buying the sound. Don't you?

For that matter, every headphone I have seen is just a couple of diaphrams, maybe a couple of resistors, etc. and and a housing/headband. Yet some cost way more than others. Do you really think that it is the parts cost?

Sorry for the rant. I used to know a couple of small hifi manufacturers. I can tell you that they spent untold hours picking parts and perfecting a design. And the parts never were the biggest basis for the final price of the product.

That said, I would not have complained if the price of the Grado amp was only a couple of hundred. I probably would have bought one.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif Y It's a CMOY in a wood box and charging more than $150 for it is unethical.

And how, exactly, is this unethical?

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif And how, exactly, is this unethical?

I don't think it's unethical at all. If people don't like it, they don't have to buy them.

 

[scootermafia]

It's unethical in that you market it as something extremely awesome with all these great quotes on your website and people trust you because you are a respected headphone company. Most reputable amp makers at least show a gore and guts shot so that you know you're not getting disguised junk. Think of what would happen if some no name manufacturer came along and tried to do that. The markup really is nearly as bad as Monster Cable.

And the placebo effect is extra bad because you really want to trust Grado and this beautiful mahogany gadget that matches your headphones. You think that because your headphone's maker created it, and it matches and all, that it HAS to sound good. I'm sure it sounds good...like a good CMOY.

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's unethical in that you market it as something extremely awesome with all these great quotes on your website and people trust you because you are a respected headphone company. Most reputable amp makers at least show a gore and guts shot so that you know you're not getting disguised junk. Think of what would happen if some no name manufacturer came along and tried to do that. The markup really is nearly as bad as Monster Cable. And the placebo effect is extra bad because you really want to trust Grado and this beautiful mahogany gadget that matches your headphones. You think that because your headphone's maker created it, and it matches and all, that it HAS to sound good. I'm sure it sounds good...like a good CMOY.

You've never heard of it and you just KNOW that it sounds like a cmoy.

I actually don't know how it sounds, but I would refrain myself from commenting on the sound quality of any products I haven't actually heard or have experience in extensively. You should already knew that by now since you already drew criticism from other members by doing exactly what you did just now (but otherwise, a nicely written review).

 

[atbglenn]

I personally don't care if it sounds good or not. I'm not going to pay $450 for an amp that has $5 worth of Radio Shack parts. End of story.

 

[scootermafia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by atbglenn /img/forum/go_quote.gif I personally don't care if it sounds good or not. I'm not going to pay $450 for an amp that has $5 worth of Radio Shack parts. End of story.

That about sums it up. When you buy something, you at least like to know that most of the purchase price is not just lining someone's pocket, but that you were buying goods, not just "services" (as much as you could consider being sold a wood box amp a special service).

 

[jinp6301]

Quote:

Originally Posted by atbglenn /img/forum/go_quote.gif I personally don't care if it sounds good or not.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry /img/forum/go_quote.gif When I buy an amp, headphone, whatever, I am not buying the parts, I am buying the sound. Don't you?

Not all amps are original works of art. Many on the market are either blatantly copied or slightly reworked versions of designs long in the public domain.

There are a few companies that put out original designs but it's mostly the DIY crowd and a handful of amp fiends who know the difference.

The irony is those who recycle designs tend to be the biggest self-promoters while demanding top dollar for their products. Those who design often put their designs into the public domain - look at how many designs Kevin Gilmore has given us. Or Pete Millett, or several other talented designers.

There is value in running a company, putting your capital out to build a product, honoring warranties, and so on. I'm not criticizing that, it takes time, money, effort, and talent to run a business. But don't give the businessmen credit for something they didn't do. If they're just recycling, then it's simply a commodity and should be priced as such.

 

[Taikero]

The important thing to remember with any company is that the better the marketing is, the more they're probably paying the people selling the product rather than the ones making it and/or researching for it.

Superior marketing of an inferior product always beats inferior marketing of a superior product. Just look at Bose, V-Moda, and Skullcandy (Plenty of others too). Logitech has a solid reputation and good mice and keyboards, so "logically", their "headphones for gaming" should be good too, right?

It's the same story over and over again.

That's why some, but not all, amps under $1000 beat amps over $1000 (apply this to any product category you wish, even outside audio). It's because you're paying the company to market the product to other people who will, in return, pay the company to remarket the product again. And again. And again.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's unethical in that you market it as something extremely awesome with all these great quotes on your website and people trust you because you are a respected headphone company. Most reputable amp makers at least show a gore and guts shot so that you know you're not getting disguised junk. Think of what would happen if some no name manufacturer came along and tried to do that. The markup really is nearly as bad as Monster Cable. And the placebo effect is extra bad because you really want to trust Grado and this beautiful mahogany gadget that matches your headphones. You think that because your headphone's maker created it, and it matches and all, that it HAS to sound good. I'm sure it sounds good...like a good CMOY.

So you think that Grado is engaging in false and misleading advertising with respect to the promotion of the RA-1. I disagree. The testimonials are what they are. We're all welcome to disagree with them, but using them to promote is not unethical provided that the reviews are quoted or characterized properly. As for Grado's own promotional language, the only real quibble I would have is the use of the term "state-of-the-art," which it really is not. Aside from that, Grado doesn't really say much at all about its amp (at least on the website, please point me elsewhere if I am missing something).

Does all of this make the RA-1 a great amp. Of course not. But does it make it unethical to sell it for whatever the market will bear? No.

Finally, with regard to "what would happen if some no name manufacturer came along and tried to do that," there are plenty of well-known manufacturers that engage in such tactics as you describe, as well as other, more devious tactics that actually are unethical.