[scootermafia]

Well, Grado has to be selective in who they let review it. It's pretty hard to make any of their kickass headphones sound bad, but there's really no proof that the amp is any better than a headphone jack. I think that if someone like Skylab that has heard everything reviewed it and was tasked with determining what it is worth, the news would not be good for them. I don't think the people endorsing the amp are as qualified as some of the people on this board - like for instance, when Stereophile reviews a headphone product they admit that speaker sound is their specialty and that they know relatively little about headphones. They're just not a head-fi publication. I don't trust their listed recommendations any more than I would trust my mom reviewing it.

The fact is that a $30 CMOY would cause the reviewers to have the exact same impressions (if it were presented as a Grado product hidden in a wood box, because this amp is LITERALLY a CMOY. As in, one op amp, batteries, a pair of caps, and a couple resistors. The extra money is being robbed from customers who like what they hear because of how it is marketed. If a cutaway view was shown before they listened, and then customers had the option to A/B it with any $200 and up headphone amp from any other company, there's no way they'd still go with the RA1.

The whole point of the RA1 is to pull a fast one on customers in dealerships by convincing them they need one of these contraptions to finish a system. They're going to demo it and like it, assuming they don't know headphone amps real well, and they'll assume it's money well spent because of the look and the brand. As I said, it will sound good because their headphones sound good. This is the same thing that Best Buy does when it sells you accessories to go with your stuff like a $40 ipod power cable that can be bought from the Chinese for $1.

The only use for the RA1 is as a snazzy conversation piece/paperweight/decoration.

 

[scootermafia]

And the website says:

"And the sound? Just like all Grados: warm, smooth, full-bodied, non-fatiguing and rich."
Yep, because you're hearing Grados with almost nothing done to the signal other than running it through a cheap op amp.

"Hook it up to any line source (portable or in-home) and drive your Grado headphones to their full potential."
I think this is where we have our "false advertising". I think all of us can recommend a few amps to make them reach their "full potential."

And yeah, the "state of the art" line cracked me up. The idea that this amp represents any sort of pinnacle of anything besides biggest differential between parts cost and product cost, is laughable.

 

[panda]

notice how all the ra-1 haters don't own any grados. never mind the fact that it was designed specifically for rs-1. i see it as the same kind of ignorance as dissing a band for selling a demo cd for $20 stating it's a rip off because it was recorded in a garage with crappy equipment, yet they don't even listen to the type of music that band plays...

i figure these people just don't understand the importance of what 'gels' right, let alone design and final outcome of the product. something could have only two parts and cost less than five dollars to make, yet if the end result was of my satisfaction, i would definitely not be crying about how it's a rip off. what you're willing to pay is entirely of your own accord.

the rega ear is a fine amp, i use one myself. i've read that article on it and while the technicalities might have some truth behind it, it's just specs. the sound is what matters most and this amp delivers in strides, i'd consider it a bargain at only $300 in comparison to the competition.

 

[Alai]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif Finally, with regard to "what would happen if some no name manufacturer came along and tried to do that," there are plenty of well-known manufacturers that engage in such tactics as you describe, as well as other, more devious tactics that actually are unethical.

Logitech, Razer's audio department, Bose, Creative, etc?

 

[scootermafia]

I'd like some sort of proof that a single op amp, two caps, and a couple resistors represents the "best" way to amplify an RS-1. I think it "works" with the RS1 because anything works with an RS1 cuz it's a good can. I think it's the best in that it did the best job of making Grado profits.

Just because it has good synergy with the RS-1 doesn't mean that 50 other designs aren't better. It's hard to make RS-1s sound bad.

 

[peanuthead]

If some genious developed an amp that is indisputably the best sounding ever, with $10 worth of parts, and charged $1000 for it, I'd buy it.

 

[QQQ]

Same old ****. Every similar discussion turns into RA1 fuss...

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by QQQ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Same old ****. Every similar discussion turns into RA1 fuss...

Recently, I've seen many members discouraging others from products that they've never even heard of and claiming that what they own is better.

Some members claim that amp or dac x is better than y basing on how some other reviewer don't like it. I think this REALLY bothers me. It's just ridiculous.

Something should definitely be done about it. Sharing your knowledge is a good thing, but don't compare or comment on anything that you have no experience in!

 

[scootermafia]

I know you're calling me out, and that's fine.
I realize I can't say that the Grado or the Gilmore GS-1 are bad in any way, because that would be unfair, and because I literally do not know first hand. The GS-1 is a thing of beauty and it is a very nice design.

I criticized that the GS-1 has an identical amp section to the lite, but with a few convenience features added, and a very large, sophisticated internal power supply similar to a sigma-11 or other high quality power supply. Yes, a power supply of high quality is extremely important. No, I don't think it should cost $500 more over the price of the Lite. That is a personal opinion of mine, and shouldn't discourage anyone from getting a GS-1. The amp section is of course well designed, and many like it. It is more that the Lite is a very good value because it has the exact same amp section as the GS-1 and one half the amp section of the GS-X. I have said nothing other than that some amplifiers give you more for the money than others simply because some amplifiers' costs are going to marketing.

As for the Grado, my criticism is that it is not that it is a bad design or that it sounds bad. It is that it is literally a $30 CMOY for $450. The design is the same. It isn't fair to call it state of the art and use your name and the fact that it matches your products to encourage your customers to pick this thing up. It sounds good because of the placebo effect and because Grados sound good already, and putting it through a tiny circuit to pump up the volume is going to only make them sound better - just not as good as nearly other amp. There'll be some high end amps that don't "gel" well with the Grados but that is because there are so many amps out there that there are always incompatibilities.

If a moderator thinks that this commentary is unfair or unacceptable for this site, let me know, and I'll refrain from expressing myself.

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sure it sounds good...like a good CMOY.

I have no problem if you're only criticizing their parts, but you rated their sound to be as good as a cmoy.

In another thread, you recommended a Graham Slee over the GS-1 even though you haven't heard either one.

In yet another thread in which you review your M^3 (good job for revising

), allow me to quote Borat: "By your own account, you have never even heard the Caliente, Lite, or GS-1. Why are they even in the conversation and why do you need to disparage them to make yourself feel good about your amp?"

Lastly, I'm not singling you out Scootermafia, I do indeed notice this trend that I was speaking of and I'm just trying to bring it out in the open.

 

[scootermafia]

Yeah, I was only recommending one over the other based on reviews and budget and anything else I know, not any first hand knowledge - should have probably prefaced everything with that.

In my review I was mostly comparing build quality/parts count which isn't all that reliable since sound quality is subjective, but it's a loose rule that a bigger build with more separation of tasks, redundant systems for tasks (like stepping up from GS-1 to GS-X and getting separate boards for +/-) has more power and definition, especially if the parts are high quality and the design is based on science and relentless testing and refinement...but yeah, we can only get a verdict with our own ears, not even everyone else's recommendations. Although most of us don't have the luxury to hear something like a Darkvoice easily in the states outside of a meet, and have to buy based on what others think, and are not satisfied 100% of the time.

I wouldn't ASSUME that the RA1 is a worthwhile purchase, but I will never know for sure. Impressions are personal and the amp means something to a certain contingent of people who say that nothing else is quite like it, and indeed lots of simple products have been elevated to high levels - cheap products transformed by modding, unheard of products coming to prominence due to how they perform, etc.

A lesson learned. I guess anyone in future who reads anything I write should know that I've only recently ever heard a M3, a 336SE, a CMOY...nowhere near I live sells headphone gear. Anything else I say one should assume is a guess based on my various biases.

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have no problem if you're only criticizing their parts, but you rated their sound to be as good as a cmoy.

It quacks like a duck, it looks like a duck, it probaply is a duck. What kind of voodoo would Grado use that a basic of the basic of the basic amplifier design would suddenly play in the same ballpark like Gilmore Lite and such, outputting as much power with that kind of quality etc... You can use quality caps, quality transistors and quality opamps, but still it would not change the fact that the design is still SIMPLE and there is only so much it can do despite parts used.


Quote:

notice how all the ra-1 haters don't own any grados.

Now thats wrong...

 

[scootermafia]

Yeah, the Grado's simplicity has pissed off legions of people who want to know how Grado is getting away with selling what is basically the circuit and parts of a CMOY stuffed into a wood box. Looking at past threads, this has come up before, and every time someone asks about the RA1, cut-open pix are posted and the person recoils in horror.

I agree that with only a few parts you can only do so much. The amp is cute and so it has already seduced the listener before they have even put the headphones on. And you want it to sound good because it's made for your Grados. I also agree with previous posters that it is criminal to suggest that your amp is state of the art when it's a CMOY (albeit one that despite being physically a CMOY with expensive power caps that people somehow thing sounds better than a CMOY). At this point, this amp has pissed me off so much that I just want to buy one, see how it sounds, then go Office Space on it.

I think that it might be profitable to build a special amp for HD650s. It will be a beautiful carbon fiber box with the same pretty metallic finish as the Senns. It will be commensurately expensive. All of its insides will be potted into a brick that entirely fills the inside of the amp, and the epoxy goodness will seal the amp shut so no non-believers can pry inside. It will consist of RCA jacks in the back, a volume control attenuating the signal, and a headphone jack. It will be billed as not even needing power because it runs on Sennheiser's awesomeness. Just the mere presence of the headphones near the amp will fill it with the Holy Spirit. Sennheiser fanboys will declare a blood feud when the amp is questioned, saying that the product was "destined" to power the HD650 and that nothing else could improve upon the Sennheiser designer's eternal pairing of amp and headphones.

 

[cosmopragma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Something should definitely be done about it.

Won't happen ........
The phenomenon isn't exactly new.Members having shmopinions about gear they've never actually auditioned is common at least since 2003.
You have to learn who are the blahblah post count whores and who does have to say something significant.

BTW, I do have plenty of experience with dozens of headphones and at least twenty amps.
I've once owned a RS-1/RA-1 (clone) combo and the resulting sound was particularly good and in fact better than with a common Cmoy and even better than a RS-1 combined with nonsynergistic expensive amps.YMMW, but better after you've actually auditioned the amp.

A wealthy middle class consumer that doesn't want a new hobby and is only looking for a decent headphone rig does exactly get that in the brick and mortar store next door hassle free without dozens of hours for research and costs for trial and error.
What's wrong with this?
It's just a different target market and doesn't apply to head-fiers.
We are knowledgeable and can build or get a cheap clone instead or we can go overboard with a custom balanced amp or whatnot.We represent a niche with our own terms.


What do you think does a RS-1 cost in parts and production costs? $30? $40?
The build quality is certainly not on par with the standards of the huge european or japanese manufacturers.
Should this be considered as a rip off as well?

I don't think so.

 

[The Monkey]

The even bigger problem going on here these days is product shilling, which to me is a more insidious practice.