[TheBigCW]

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Originally Posted by jax /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can't speak for others, but the joy I get in life has more to do with being open to possibilities that are not necessarily in the realms of logic or reason. The best things in my life have come from some kind of leap of faith....driven by a gut instinct and or blind passion. That is not to say I abandoned reason all together in those cases, but I've found there are times for both.

There's nothing that isn't within the realm of logic or reason. There's never any reason to abandon reason in cases that involve large sums of money and frankly that's incredibly faulty logic.

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Originally Posted by jak /img/forum/go_quote.gif Go listen to the stuff yourself and make your own decisions....enjoy the music above all...enjoy life!

Say I make a box full of random gears and cogs and such, pieces that cost me $100. I sell it for $1,000,000,000 dollars, claiming it will improve the enjoyment of your life. Despite the fact that the lie is easily disprovable, should someone still make wide profit margins on simply scamming people, even if someone does feel better after using it (placebo)? No, of course not. However, by your 'logic' I should purchase all of the devices that make claims to improve something even if they're easily disprovable just to test it for myself. That's just simply a bad idea.

 

[jax]

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There's nothing that isn't within the realm of logic or reason. There's never any reason to abandon reason in cases that involve large sums of money and frankly that's incredibly faulty logic.

As far as I can tell, everything just is. Logic and reason are entirely fabrications of the human mind. None of this stuff has any meaning at all except what we, as individuals ascribe to it. What that meaning becomes is often entirely unique to the individual. A scoop of vanilla ice cream in a bowl may mean something entirely different to you than it does to me. Some folks seek comfort in faith. Some folks seek comfort in logic and reason. Some find a happy middle ground. Live and let live. I would not deny someone their faith and their happiness because I might see things differently (unless, of course their faith involves doing harm to others). Nor do I deny you your logic and reason - have at it and enjoy. I just shared my own take on it, which is personal to me. I did not mean it to be a criticism of your own choices.

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Say I make a box full of random gears and cogs and such, pieces that cost me $100. I sell it for $1,000,000,000 dollars, claiming it will improve the enjoyment of your life. Despite the fact that the lie is easily disprovable, should someone still make wide profit margins on simply scamming people, even if someone does feel better after using it (placebo)? No, of course not. However, by your 'logic' I should purchase all of the devices that make claims to improve something even if they're easily disprovable just to test it for myself. That's just simply a bad idea.

Let me clarify something: I did not suggest that anyone go out and buy anything specifically. If someone were interested in improving some aspect of their system I would encourage them to try the different options they can realistically afford, in their own system, with their own music, and with their own two ears. What someone is willing to pay for something is entirely up to them. Their are countless things people choose to spend their money one that I would never choose to invest in. I don't think they're wrong, or the people who are capitalizing on a demand for a product are wrong for doing so. I personally would be ashamed to mark something up to the degree some manufacturers do. But that's me. Obviously in some cases there is a demand of people who actually believe the added investment brings them something of value in their life, otherwise they wouldn't spend it. I'm not going to stand in judgment of what someone else chooses to value. I can only speak for myself, and I don't believe others should follow my lead. I believe everyone should find their own path and make their own decisions. You are basically just criticizing capitalism. I have nothing much to say to that. I enjoy having the freedom of choice that the system gives me. Certainly, I too feel there are individuals and corporations that take full advantage of it and that bothers me too. There are far worse, and more far reaching breaches of ethics and morals taking place in industries like banking, pharmaceuticals, medicine and government, to name but a few. But I digress far off topic. Capitalizing on capitalism is not a new notion...it comes with the territory, as it were.

If someone actually does feel better after using 'it', in your example, then what does it matter whether it is a Placebo or something based upon your tightly held belief in logic and reason. If the end result is the person is happy using it, who are you or I to question the means to which one chooses to reach their happiness (again, as long as they are not harming others in the process)?? Questions to consider: If you go to some of the best restaurants in the world, and weigh the cost of the ingredients against what they charged for the meal. Someone pays a million dollars for a vase that is made from clay and paint, or an artwork that is canvas and paint. Are the purveyors of those good to be held accountable to your reason? Why should they get to charge millions for things that are worth less in another person's opinion. Those things are worth what they are simply because someone is out there willing to exchange that much money for the privilege of temporarily owning this thing. It will all go to dust in the end.

.....It's just a complicated game.
-XTC

 

[Prog Rock Man]

I posted a response to criticism I received for my last post on 'burden of proof'. Both have gone from the thread. Is a forum administrator able to explain why that is?

Thanks.

 

[TheBigCW]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jax /img/forum/go_quote.gif As far as I can tell, everything just is. Logic and reason are entirely fabrications of the human mind. None of this stuff has any meaning at all except what we, as individuals ascribe to it. What that meaning becomes is often entirely unique to the individual. A scoop of vanilla ice cream in a bowl may mean something entirely different to you than it does to me. Some folks seek comfort in faith. Some folks seek comfort in logic and reason. Some find a happy middle ground. Live and let live. I would not deny someone their faith and their happiness because I might see things differently (unless, of course their faith involves doing harm to others). Nor do I deny you your logic and reason - have at it and enjoy. I just shared my own take on it, which is personal to me. I did not mean it to be a criticism of your own choices.

I don't see the point of your first statement. You simply said a true thing that barely addressed my point. Logic, defined as 'reasoned and reasonable judgment', and reason, defined as 'the capacity for rational thought or inference or discrimination', are two things that can be used to explain why everything (everything!) happens. Your point merely addressed perspective, which does not distort reality.

Addressing your second point, you act like these are mutually exclusive. You don't have to have faith to be happy, and you don't have to be wrong to be happy. You can be reasoned, logical, happy, and not be misled by the cable manufactures who lie and steal. If, at this point, you're basically admitting to the placebo effect (whatever makes them happy makes them happy) then preserving their wallets is just a humanitarian effort. Besides, rarely does cable belief stop there. It leads people to recommend cable treatment to those who are uneducated, untrained, or otherwise not knowledgeable about the science behind our side. They go out and waste money on cables, thinking it will help, when it doesn't. That's one of the very scary aspects of cable belief. I don't think it's simply benign.

 

[Lumient]

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Originally Posted by jax /img/forum/go_quote.gif Live and let live. If someone were interested in improving some aspect of their system I would encourage them to try the different options they can realistically afford, in their own system, with their own music, and with their own two ears. What someone is willing to pay for something is entirely up to them. I believe everyone should find their own path and make their own decisions.

x2

I don't really understand why this discussion and topic invokes such heated debate.

The cable issue is pretty simple and inexpensive for anyone interested to try out. And usually the people who really spend a great amount of money on cables already have found it worthwhile or have so much money that it doesn't matter anyway.

I agree that false advertising is not good thing. But it's not restricted to audio world. Every day the advertisers try to convince me to buy new things that would make me as handsome, popular, rich or young as the people on the commercials. It's up to people to try to figure out what they really need and what not. And unfortunately also what in the commercials are facts and what just imaginary visions that won't come true in real life.

 

[jax]

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Your point merely addressed perspective, which does not distort reality.

Precisely. Perspective is human experience. Reality just is. We don't get pleasure from what just is, we get pleasure from what we make that mean...how we interpret it, and how our bodies respond to it.

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Addressing your second point, you act like these are mutually exclusive. You don't have to have faith to be happy, and you don't have to be wrong to be happy. You can be reasoned, logical, happy, and not be misled by the cable manufactures who lie and steal. If, at this point, you're basically admitting to the placebo effect (whatever makes them happy makes them happy) then preserving their wallets is just a humanitarian effort. Besides, rarely does cable belief stop there. It leads people to recommend cable treatment to those who are uneducated, untrained, or otherwise not knowledgeable about the science behind our side. They go out and waste money on cables, thinking it will help, when it doesn't. That's one of the very scary aspects of cable belief. I don't think it's simply benign.

Oh brother! I don't know where to start here. I never said you HAD to be one way or the other to be happy. I only was trying to share my own personal viewpoint. The point I was trying to make is that we are as individual as our fingerprints and by all means, I agree, that, embracing any position on the spectrum - one can find one's own happiness in faith, logic, reason, and anything in between, or combination thereof. I was suggesting it is not our place to judge what makes another happy. I see no point either in trying to change what makes another person happy. Why would I want to do that. I have really shared nothing about my personal experiences or beliefs on cable use or prices (nor any of the other topics the author of this article addresses), nor do I care to beyond what I've already said as a broad generalization. There is nothing whatsoever that I find "scary" about "aspects of cable belief" - it is relatively harmless in perspective to far more grave and serious digressions by corporations, governments, and individuals, a few of which I alluded to. If you really want to make some "humanitarian efforts", you can turn your energies to far more effective things than saving audiophiles from spending money on cables, and putting the evil, greedy manufacturers of cables behind bars where they may never again take an innocent audiophile's hard-earned cash. But that's just my opinion. If you think your crusade is a humanitarian effort worth pursuing, well, who am I to keep you from saving the world from the evils of boutique cables. I pass you the official head-fi soap box from which you may pontificate further and do your part to rid the world of this scourge of wrong-doers manufacturing boutique audio cables. I wish you god-speed on your righteous quest to help mankind..Oh, whoops, I just read your sig file....I wish you 'speed' on your righteous quest to help mankind, one audiophile at a time!

 

[haloxt]

Both my parents died to blood-thirsty cables.

 

[terriblepaulz]

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Originally Posted by TheBigCW /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... then preserving their wallets is just a humanitarian effort. Besides, rarely does cable belief stop there. It leads people to recommend cable treatment to those who are uneducated, untrained, or otherwise not knowledgeable about the science behind our side. They go out and waste money on cables, thinking it will help, when it doesn't. That's one of the very scary aspects of cable belief. I don't think it's simply benign.

This is the point. In the grand scheme of things, the importance of cable-belief is negligible. But magical thinking does contribute to disillusioned budding audiophiles, a glut of silly products, and an over-all deterioration in the quality of this and other forums. That's all. Taunting silly people making silly claims is just hobbyists caring about their hobby.

 

[Lumient]

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Originally Posted by terriblepaulz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Taunting silly people making silly claims is just hobbyists caring about their hobby.

But who's in the position to determine what is silly and what is not?

 

[Uncle Erik]

jax, I think what you're saying is that the ability to reason and discriminate just isn't all that important and that whatever a person makes up their mind is correct is all that matters.

Unfortunately, the world doesn't work that way. Some perspectives are better than others. Magical realism is not healthy. A bad decision on the road could get you killed. Or kill someone else. Cables aren't that serious, but it's the principle. You have to do your best to determine the truth - even if that goes against what you wish were true. I've abandoned a number of deeply felt things over the years. A couple of girlfriends, a political party I loved that now seems filled with fruitcakes and lunatics, particular brands and products, a complete 180 on what I eat, and countless other things.

Yeah, it hurt and was somewhat humiliating to admit I was wrong. But I was wrong. Unquestionably wrong. So I ate crow and did what had to be done. I am better off for it.

If I had wallowed in magical thinking and wish fulfillment, I'd be in a terrible position and very unhappy.

When it comes to audio gear, you must realize that there is a minefield of scams and dubious goods. It's like that in every high-end market with fat margins. I've seen it with cars, real estate, watches, pens, and any number of markets with high margins.

People see that they can make enormous amounts of money with littlemeffort and a bunch of lies. It's a lot easier than making an honest product and selling it at a fair price to people who pay damn close attention to price and performance. This is why you'll find garden variety Toyotas and Hondas that whoop the so-called "luxury" brands. Despite a nice income, I drive a garden variety Toyota. It doesn't have problems. I apply the same discrimination to everything else I consume. If something provides a worthwhile value, I buy it. If it is loaded with hype and stinks of profiteering, I avoid it.

The savings go towards worthwhile purchases. What I could have spent of cables "worthy" of my system instead put a down payment on an income property that generates $1,200 a month and more as I raise rents over the years. It gives me some nice tax benefits, as well. You, or anyone else, could do the same.

Getting caught up in the lies of people trying to make huge margins off you is completely against your self interests. The $400 spent on a cable could very well be invested, saved or spent on tuition or something else that directly improves your life.

Buying a cable simply transfers your wealth to the undeserving.

I've done OK in life. I also like to see others do well. If I can give advice or point someone in the right direction, it makes me happy.

Magical thinking is not going to do anything for you. You'll end up buying something that isn't any different from far less expensive items. That is a tax on you and your life. Ask the hard questions, draw reasonable conclusions and do not be afraid to admit you were wrong. There is nothing tobe gained from a cable, whatsoever. If you believe that there is, you are cheating yourself and your future.

 

[jax]

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Originally Posted by terriblepaulz /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is the point. In the grand scheme of things, the importance of cable-belief is negligible. But magical thinking does contribute to disillusioned budding audiophiles, a glut of silly products, and an over-all deterioration in the quality of this and other forums. That's all. Taunting silly people making silly claims is just hobbyists caring about their hobby.

Taunting silly people making silly claims is all in good fun, and I'm all for freedom of speech, and freedom in general. Sharing diverse topical opinions on a hobby we share in common is what makes conversations like this one interesting to me, and what makes participating in forums fun (diversity). But taking the same cause on like it's a mission of grave seriousness, where wrong-doers are perpetrating evil lies and stealing the money of helpless audiophiles because they are not capable of rational reasoning....well, sorry, that's just as silly to me. That's just my opinion. Indeed, which of has the right to sit in judgment, ultimately. I'd venture to guess as many people are engaged by such seductions into the hobby as there are those disillusioned, as you posit. There are also those who simply will test the waters themselves and make their own decisions based on the results, and not play victim at the expense of their own enjoyment of life. What "is" will sometimes have little to do with how that plays out. It's what we make what "is" mean to each of us that is our experience of the world. If one claims that ration and reason is their filters, well all the power to them. It is not the only way. That idea is myopic and limiting, IMO.

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jax, I think what you're saying is that the ability to reason and discriminate just isn't all that important and that whatever a person makes up their mind is correct is all that matters.

No, that's not what I am saying. I don't think reason and logic are bad things, nor are they aspects of how we deal with the world that should be ignored. Again, I am just sharing a personal perspective.

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Some perspectives are better than others.

And who determines that? At one point the perspective that the world was flat was universally accepted. All kinds of things that were once thought to be understood in the realm of science and reason, have evolved into perspectives that entirely refute that which once was accepted as "truth". There are just perspectives. Better, worse. Bad, good. Those are opinions and, as I said, may be as individual as fingerprints.

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Magical realism is not healthy. A bad decision on the road could get you killed. Or kill someone else.

I'm sorry, I've never suggested anyone embrace "magic realism" as a way to get from point a to point b in life. I have rendered no opinions about cables-beliefs here.

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You have to do your best to determine the truth - even if that goes against what you wish were true. I've abandoned a number of deeply felt things over the years. A couple of girlfriends, a political party I loved that now seems filled with fruitcakes and lunatics, particular brands and products, a complete 180 on what I eat, and countless other things.

I'm mostly with you here...I think. Just my point...people's perspective's change. What "is" remains the same as far as our best indicators are able to tell us. Yet we each may experience it entirely differently. Such is life. Things do change.

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If I had wallowed in magical thinking and wish fulfillment, I'd be in a terrible position and very unhappy.

Again, nothing I've suggested, nor would particularly endorse. There are those who live their lives guided by such thinking and manage to get through it and be happy...I've met some. Good for them!

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When it comes to audio gear, you must realize that there is a minefield of scams and dubious goods. It's like that in every high-end market with fat margins. I've seen it with cars, real estate, watches, pens, and any number of markets with high margins.

Capitalism at its worst. Yes.

The rest of your post contains some very sensible advice.

My only objection remains in sitting in judgment over others for the choices they've made. Whatever floats your boat.

Thanks for the conversations one and all.

 

[jax]

Forgive me for not properly crediting Uncle Erik for his quotes above.

As an addendum, and a question to you, Eric:

I would venture to say, the majority of people on the planet would look at your investment in your hobbies as extraordinary to say the least. Lets just take the head-fi bit - according to your current list you have 17 pairs of headphones and 10 headphone amps along with quite a bit of other stereo gear - the majority of people on this planet would probably find reason to think this was a bit silly, and I'm pretty confident in guessing that would even include those who might not blink at what that investment means in dollars and cents. Is that 'popular' opinion of your acquisition of those objects, and of your chosen priority to invest in your own passion... is that popular opinion a "reality"...is that the "truth"....or is it just the opinion of the majority of people on the planet? And how relevant is that opinion to you - how much are you likely to let it effect your decision not only to hang onto, and enjoy all that stuff, but to actually buy more of it in the pursuit of ___________?! I am not, by the way, questioning your choice, or asking you to defend it...Just trying to make a point. In the same token, BigCW seems to think his stance as an Atheist is worth adding to his signature file, and speaks of reason and truth over faith (I'm interpreting a bit here). I have nothing at all for or against his choice of atheism, and of course this is not the place to discuss as much (which is probably why we don't see that many people posting their religious beliefs, or political opinions, or sexual preferences in their sig files). But, again, I would venture the majority of individuals on the planet live lives based in faith of something else... Something beyond what is the evident "truth" that such 'reason', BigCW speaks of, is based upon. Therefore a good part of the planet may see atheism as the 'wrong' choice. Does that make it wrong? Certainly not for BigCW, as well as a rapidly growing number of others! Do those who might question atheism have concrete proof of their beliefs? No more than CW has of his own - it's what he chooses, it's what reason tells him...it's as obvious to him as Buddha may be to another. Is that "magic reality". Perhaps to some it may occur that way. Should we spend our energies sitting in judgment and trying to convince others of their misguided ways because it is dangerous living in "magical" reality and believing in Buddha, or in Jesus, or Muhammad, or __________, because it can't be proven by science? Do we need to convert the barbaric natives and save them all? Should believers not be driving cars to prevent accidents because they live in a magic reality? I don't think so.

That's how this crusade to debunk the various items in this article occur to me. I make that observation entirely apart from what I may believe about each of the individual and widely diverse topics he writes about. What you guys seem to be suggesting here, occurs to me like a group of missionaries going into a strange land trying to save the natives from their own beliefs because you know better. The self righteousness, and arrogance of that stance simply bothers me, whether or not there is basis in truth to the issues at hand.

There are critics who actually have something personal to say that may or may not resonate with the reader. They bring their life experience to bear and reflect a real, 3dimensional person. The topic becomes a point of departure, as well as being the subject for them to share their personal experiences, for better or worse. I enjoy that kind of criticism. It can be a rich and expanding experience...thought provoking. I don't find this guys reviews to be even remotely that kind of criticism that I enjoy. My sense is that there is an agenda behind all of it and occurs to me to be written from a bitter and self-righteous standpoint, akin to the missionaries I referenced. There is an article in the same issue as the Grado headphones where he sees fit to call out a few of the Good and Bad guys (that is exactly how he put it) in the audio industry according to him. I will restrain myself and just leave it to say that I have no respect, whatsoever, for writing such an article in the way he did. He writes as if it is not just his personal opinion, but a statement of indisputable fact. This rubs me in all the wrong ways. This is just my opinion and my own response. It is entirely apart from the validity of the statements, claims and accusations he makes.

On those topics specifically, I would only say that listening preferences are entirely subjective, priorities are as varied as people, and value is entirely up to the individual and their own expectations. To me there is a very clear point of diminishing returns on your investment in the high-end. That point varies for every individual. That is the point where you have to throw what, to you, occurs to be some very serious money at it in order to make improvements that actually seem worth the investment (TO YOU). Serious money to one person, may be chump change to another. What I prefer and what I seem to value may be entirely different from the next guy.

 

[adrift]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jax /img/forum/go_quote.gif As far as I can tell, everything just is. Logic and reason are entirely fabrications of the human mind. None of this stuff has any meaning at all except what we, as individuals ascribe to it. What that meaning becomes is often entirely unique to the individual. A scoop of vanilla ice cream in a bowl may mean something entirely different to you than it does to me. Some folks seek comfort in faith. Some folks seek comfort in logic and reason. Some find a happy middle ground. Live and let live. I would not deny someone their faith and their happiness because I might see things differently (unless, of course their faith involves doing harm to others). Nor do I deny you your logic and reason - have at it and enjoy. I just shared my own take on it, which is personal to me. I did not mean it to be a criticism of your own choices.

Again though, faith and logic are not mutually exclusive concepts. They can be exclusive, but are not necessarily.

The Online Etymology Dictionary defines and explains the root of faith:

mid-13c., "duty of fulfilling one's trust," from O.Fr. feid, from L. fides "trust, belief," from root of fidere "to trust," from PIE base *bhidh-/*bhoidh- (cf. Greek. pistis).

As shown above the Greek word for Faith is rendered Pistis and literally means: "conviction of the truth of anything" or "belief".

One can certainly use logic and reason to inform a conviction of the truth. I understand how the term faith is being used here to refer mostly to some sort of "blind faith" rather than say... informed faith, but that seems to make a mess of the meaning of the word especially when considering the context of your post when you say that individuals are the ones who ascribe meaning to these concepts.

 

[jax]

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One can certainly use logic and reason to inform a conviction of the truth. I understand how the term faith is being used here to refer mostly to some sort of "blind faith" rather than say... informed faith, but that seems to make a mess of the meaning of the word especially when considering the context of your post when you say that individuals are the ones who ascribe meaning to these concepts.

Thanks for that, which I found very interesting. How do you represent the "truth" on which your conviction is based? Will that be similar to everyone else's version of the truth? Who decides if those are valid grounds to represent the truth? In the case of our passion for bringing music into our homes via electronics; do we represent the truth in graphs and numbers and in terms of measurable absolutes? I have found some of the electronic devices I enjoy the most (SET amps for example) when judged by those graphs and numbers would seem not worthy of a further listen, based upon conventional standards. I'm glad I didn't hold those numbers and graphs in much esteem or I never would have listened to a combination of SET and horns which I enjoyed for many years. Someone else in this forum might listen to that very same system and shrug their shoulders wondering why anyone would want to hear music reproduced that way. Do I care? Hell no. They might also opine I wasted thousands of dollars on those components that add measurable distortion to the music. Do I care? Guess? Are the folks who produced those amps greedy, evil people wanting to take advantage of anyone who might be swayed by what is otherwise a distorted presentation of music that can easily be demonstrated on graphs and with numbers? Don't think so...I've met and know a few of them, and the premise, to me, is thoroughly ridiculous. That doesn't mean there are not greedy evil people in this industry that try to take advantage of others...I'm sure there are a few. Are there products in this industry that don't deliver as promised? No doubt that experience is certainly available too, as it is in nearly every industry. If you start to restrict the freedom of one, then who is the judge, and where does that restriction stop? If you don't like their products you don't have to buy them. What I object to is the knee-jerk, witch-hunt, Invasion of the Body Snatchers kind of mentality which the publication, that the OP references, seems to embrace, and all too many are so willing to get caught up in the fervor of.

Oh man, you can probably tell I have way too much time on my hands. It's a rainy Sunday night and I'm stuck at home recovering from a foot surgery (week 4 of 6). Melody Gardot currently filling my ears with beautiful music. Thanks for the thought provoking conversation.

 

[adrift]

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Originally Posted by jax /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for that, which I found very interesting.

You're welcome

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How do you represent the "truth" on which your conviction is based?

Are you asking me specifically or people in general? And what do you mean by "represent"? The answer seems to largely revolve around the question: "Do you believe truth is subjective or objective"? I believe it must be objective to be of any value.

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Will that be similar to everyone else's version of the truth?

See above

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Who decides if those are valid grounds to represent the truth?

Though I believe truth must be objective to have value, I believe that our lack of omniscience means we can, at best, maybe only glean truth most of the time. It seems prudent for even the most confident of us to admit that, at some level, we don't... can't... know absolutely. We're all agnostic when pushed to a certain level. I don't think this means we can't know with some amount of certainty, or at some level, the truth, though.

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In the case of our passion for bringing music into our homes via electronics; do we represent the truth in graphs and numbers and in terms of measurable absolutes?

I think this is a good way of gauging or measuring the truthfulness of a claim yes.

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I have found some of the electronic devices I enjoy the most (SET amps for example) when judged by those graphs and numbers would seem not worthy of a further listen, based upon conventional standards. I'm glad I didn't hold those numbers and graphs in much esteem or I never would have listened to a combination of SET and horns which I enjoyed for many years. Someone else in this forum might listen to that very same system and shrug their shoulders wondering why anyone would want to hear music reproduced that way. Do I care? Hell no. They might also opine I wasted thousands of dollars on those components that add measurable distortion to the music. Do I care? Guess? Are the folks who produced those amps greedy, evil people wanting to take advantage of anyone who might be swayed by what is otherwise a distorted presentation of music that can easily be demonstrated on graphs and with numbers? Don't think so...I've met and know a few of them, and the premise, to me, is thoroughly ridiculous. That doesn't mean there are not greedy evil people in this industry that try to take advantage of others...I'm sure there are a few. Are there products in this industry that don't deliver as promised? No doubt that experience is certainly available too, as it is in nearly every industry. If you start to restrict the freedom of one, then who is the judge, and where does that restriction stop? If you don't like their products you don't have to buy them. What I object to is the knee-jerk, witch-hunt, Invasion of the Body Snatchers kind of mentality which the publication, that the OP references, seems to embrace, and all too many are so willing to get caught up in the fervor of.

I think its good to be able to use the tools currently available to us to judge the truthfulness of claims made by those who may harbor ulterior motives. I can't say for sure that double blind testing will give us absolute truth, but I think it can give a certain level of certainty. At the same time I think that the experiences of so many who claim to hear something is indicative of something... what, I'm uncertain. I can't say with 100% certainty that there is nothing to their claims. Are these experiences psychological? phenomenal? transcendental? lol. Without more evidence, I simply can't say. What I personally believe is that the experiences may be psychological, but I honestly don't know. Maybe there's an experiment out there that will finally reveal what so many people experientially believe.

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Oh man, you can probably tell I have way too much time on my hands. It's a rainy Sunday night and I'm stuck at home recovering from a foot surgery (week 4 of 6). Melody Gardot currently filling my ears with beautiful music. Thanks for the thought provoking conversation.

Haha. my pleasure. I love conversations like these as well as long as folks aren't purposely being nasty and closed minded to one another.