[hectuero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jax /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, your scientific objective device will indicate the SET amp yields more 2nd order harmonic distortion than the SS amp, for instance. But who is to say that that kind of distortion may not actually be very pleasing and enjoyable to someone who may not prefer at all the option of odd-order distortions presented by an SS amp?

It seems that you're saying that people who don't like odd-order distortion from a solid state amplifier would prefer the even-order distortion produced by a tube amplifier. Which only restates what you (and many others) have said before and solidifies the notion present in music and psychoacoustic theory that even-order distortion is more pleasing.

(Though your wording was confusing…)

 

[adrift]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jax /img/forum/go_quote.gif How do you measure and quantify the taste of vanilla ice cream in a meaningful way that applies to everyone's experience of what that taste is? Even if you came up with a device that generated specific data and spit forth some conclusion, Jack may still love vanilla ice cream, while Jill can't stand the flavor. It is no different with music...well, I take that back, different senses are involved, but the principal is the same. It is no different with phenomena that cannot be explained with the devices that humans can come up with to justify such absurd notions because they need to have things neatly quantified and compartmentalized. The human experience of what you call "reality"....the truth...is entirely filtered through the experience and senses of the individual. Again...the numbers your objective, scientific devices might yield to distinguish a SS amp from a SET amp would indicate that distortions abound in the SET amp. Yet I have loved listening to music from such a device. This kind of experience has me believe that there is much more to life than what we can explain in numbers, graphs, and machines. Yes, your scientific objective device will indicate the SET amp yields more 2nd order harmonic distortion than the SS amp, for instance. But who is to say that that kind of distortion may not actually be very pleasing and enjoyable to someone who may not prefer at all the option of odd-order distortions presented by an SS amp? Vanilla. Chocolate. Blondes. Brunettes. Solid state. Tubes. Crunch your numbers and plot your graphs until the cows come home. You can not plot how an individual may respond to any of those things in any kind of meaningful way.

The issue with skeptics is not whether one prefers the perceived sound of cheaper cables over the other, but that... as far as they can tell, there is no perceived difference in sound, either measurably or experientially. Preference has nothing to do with it. At least vanilla icecream not only phenomenally exists, but there's no debate that it does have taste, and a distinctive taste at that. That we may disagree on the taste doesn't mean it doesn't have taste, but that's somewhat harder to gauge with the sonic reproduction of music played through expensive cables vs. cheaper cables. Nothing measurable nor any change in subjective experience. There is no preference because there are no options. No blonde/brunette, no vanilla/chocolate, simply cable/cable.

 

[jax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hectuero /img/forum/go_quote.gif The ice cream analogy doesn't make any sense here. The ice cream itself doesn't change, only the subject's interpretation of it can. The meaning of electrical signals traveling through a cable is irrelevant to the subject, as they are not only unable to perceive them (until they themselves are interpreted by the headphones/speakers/etc) but also that it doesn't prove that a different cable would result in a different electrical signal at the other end. Unless you can measure a difference, it's not there (unless our understanding of electricity is fundamentally flawed) and the difference you're hearing is just the placebo effect. The flaw with that statement is not in its truth (it is true), but in its validity in the context of this discussion. Whether one likes music or not is mostly subjective (though there are also objective reasons behind "good" music, but I won't go into the theory of music now). Likewise, the reproduction of music by different methods is mostly (but not entirely) subjective; however, determining if something changes the reproduction of sound is not subjective, and is entirely objective. For example: it can be completely and entirely decided scientifically if a different cable has an effect (and if that effect is audible) on the sound. What it may not be able to determine, though, is whether that effect, if it exists, is beneficial or detrimental, that is subjective (though could be objective if it was based on some proven psychoacoustic theory). Thus, you can't use subjective observations alone to back up the claim that cables can or do make a difference in the sound reproduction.

Let me make this very clear: I did not set out to take any kind of position on cable-theory here. If you read my posts I have taken no position one way or the other on that subject. I have been addressing "truth/reality" vs individual perception of same. As far as your question regarding cables and electron flow, and indications that can be quantified scientifically; I am not specifically defending cables at all. What I have pointed out that does address this is that human perception of what is real cannot be quantified by a machine. A far as my specific personal opinions about cables - I did not get that was the subject of this thread, so have not even offered one. I thought the thread was asking a response to the article referenced. Regardless, that was what I was responding to broadly. I've been sharing my reaction to reading that list, and to reading this guy's stuff long before this.

I have a sincere curiosity about where BigCW is coming from, and what specific experiences with cables have lead him to such venomous statements about cable manufacturers. That is why I asked specifically about that topic as it relates to his statements.

Quote:

however, determining if something changes the reproduction of sound is not subjective, and is entirely objective.

I'd, once again, just point to the possibility that the means available to us may only reveal some of what is there and not the whole of it. Just like the means we had at one point and were so sure of revealed the earth is flat, that smoking cigarettes was a harmless activity, that blood-letting cured disease, and on and on.

I understand that you and others choose to embrace the current state of the art in analyzing such things, scientifically. I choose to, at the very least, remain open to the concept that there is more to what "is" than we can possibly explain or understand. My understanding of history has convincingly proven that to be the case to me, as I've pointed out. I find life is a whole lot more interesting when one is open to possibilities, as opposed to be closed-minded and limited by the dictates of any narrow path dictated by what others tell me. If we were to just accept what "is" at face value then a solid object would be just that. With the electron microscope we've discovered that is not the case at all. Has science reached it's apex? Do we finally understand and know everything that "is". I don't think so.

I'd also not dismiss the idea that how an individual actually perceives the world, filtered through their perceptions, personal experience and expectations, and the human mind (which we have a rather limited understanding of at best). I would not deny anyone their perceptions of the world any more than I would reject my own. That does not mean that I'd agree that someone else's perceptions of the world was the "truth"...nor would I expect mine was 100% accurate (I'd certainly hope that the fundamentals were fairly accurate to what "is" of course).

As far as the items on that list, I have offered no response whatsoever.

 

[jax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hectuero /img/forum/go_quote.gif It seems that you're saying that people who don't like odd-order distortion from a solid state amplifier would prefer the even-order distortion produced by a tube amplifier. Which only restates what you (and many others) have said before and solidifies the notion present in music and psychoacoustic theory that even-order distortion is more pleasing. (Though your wording was confusing…)

Sorrry if my wording is confusing. I was absolutely not trying to say that someone who did not care for "A" would necessarily prefer "B".

What I was trying to illustrate is that the data generated by what some embrace as an "objective" representation of what these audio components do will not necessarily indicate one way or another various individual's preferences for it because there is more at play than what the numbers actually indicate.

 

[jax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrift /img/forum/go_quote.gif The issue with skeptics is not whether one prefers the perceived sound of cheaper cables over the other, but that... as far as they can tell, there is no perceived difference in sound, either measurably or experientially.

Why would I let anyone else tell me how I should perceive something? How can you tell what I perceive? How can a machine tell how I perceive something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrift /img/forum/go_quote.gif Preference has nothing to do with it. At least vanilla icecream not only phenomenally exists, but there's no debate that it does have taste, and a distinctive taste at that. That we may disagree on the taste doesn't mean it doesn't have taste, but that's somewhat harder to gauge with the sonic reproduction of music played through expensive cables vs. cheaper cables. Nothing measurable nor any change in subjective experience. There is no preference because there are no options. No blonde/brunette, no vanilla/chocolate, simply cable/cable.

If there were no options then we'd all be listening to the same system with identical components. There are a rather significant number of options. Or; If preference had nothing to do with it, then you would be happy letting anyone choose your components for you because they all serve the same function: to reproduce music. The idea that preference has nothing to do with this stuff would make one wonder why anyone reads or contributes to a forum like this.

As far as cables go, if you hear no differences between cables, I am not surprised in the least (and that should give you a clue as to where I stand regarding cables, which I have thus far avoided commenting on - though it does not tell the whole story). In that case, I completely agree that you should buy the least expensive cables and save your money for more important things. Personally, I would not necessarily base my own decisions regarding such things by what machines and science can measure, because for me that has not proven to be an absolute point of reference (certainly it is A point of reference, but without a doubt, not the final word). If the concept of improving things were important to me I would try out options myself and make my own decisions based upon direct experience, with my system, my music, my room, and my ears. I've reached the point where such tweaking holds no particular allure to me, and I prefer just to enjoy my music with what I have. As far as the cable debate goes, if I wanted to discuss cables, I would have found or started a thread that was about that subject.

 

[ib1dance]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jax /img/forum/go_quote.gif You've misunderstood me here, and sorry for not being more clear. Yes, of course vanilla ice cream in a bowl is always going to be just that. But for each individual that may bring up an infinite variety of responses....positive, negative, neutral, etc. It may just be a bowl of vanilla ice cream, but to me that might be "yummy", as you put it, and to you it may be quite dreadful and remind you of the wake of your father and bring up bad thoughts....while to a traveling bushman of the Kalahari, it may be a very confusing thing altogether (e.g. "The Gods Must be Crazy"). Always it remains the same bowl of vanilla ice cream. How it is interpretted, how it is experienced may be entirely unique to each individual. Hope that clarifies my point.

Clear as Crystal Thanks.

That's the Amazing Diversity of life.We as Humans are all subject to natures laws.None of us originally choose to be here.As we are born into life our brains are not developed enough even to make own own decisions never mind wiping our own bum's.We grow and develop our identity's from what we sense.

But I wouldn't choose any other form of life.Being a Human is not by any means a black and white issue or a easy ride. We Have a depth of feeling and capacity for caring that is unrivalled anyway else in nature.That Depth can also be turned inwards and become distorted and perverted.

For me it's the small details that make the difference and can build up to great changer's for the better.

Having Forums like this and social society's where humans can be together and express and share their views is the way we will find our Truth and make each other strong enough to bridge any of natures shortfalls.

We are all born of nature,we all bleed and breath Air.Hopefully we can all get together more productively and work in harmony with nature to make this planet be as accommodating for the human species as is practically possible .

 

[bixby]

I love it. Another generation discovers Peter Aczel, well perhaps it's better than Peter Belt, eh?

I love to see folks following one pundits opinion so faithfully.

Peter has some interesting ideas and opinions. But these are just one man's opinion of the truth. I crack up every time I read posts from folks who follow the gospel of Aczel or any number of folks who base everything on measurements or simple scientific theory who suddenly hear a difference. And they cannot believe how big a difference it is to them.

It's suddenly a epiphany, how can this be?
At least those who have heard something that does not jive with the rules have the bravery to post about it.

If only we had a measuring device for everything........umm ice cream with just the correctly measured amount of vanilla and sugar! But I like more vanilla and less sugar, can't I be right too?

Excuse me for a while I have to burn in some interconnects on the Mobie.

 

[ib1dance]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jax /img/forum/go_quote.gif But start to touch upon religion, politics and other topics that represent some very personal choices and you will likely be poking a hornets nest

Ok cables!yes too much passion in those silly above subjects lets get down and dirty with erm cables and wot not.

In the context of sound and music cables are not @ all that important and have only been in production for a very short time.Before that we just used musical instruments for music and shouting very loud for long distance communication.

In the context of electronic audio equipment including all wired headphones cables are very important and should be adequate for the Job intended.It's easy to get too Anal about Audio equipment.
You have to find a balance that your happy with or else you may stop enjoying the majestic beauty of music ,this energy wave that can pulse through your body and brain and rejuvenate life and instead spend hours upon hours deciding weather you need to buy a $£100 peace of cable to replace your £$50 peace of cable in the hope you'll squeeze a nano spit of better quality vibration out of your £$1000 audio set-up.

Or still on topic I hope, look at it a different way.The first time you did drive a car you enjoyed it very much.Maybe more so than you now do even though your first car was a old banged out pile of scarp metal whislt your new car is a nice new shiny highly tuned peace of metal .

The enjoyment is in the new experience so instead of thinking to enjoy music more you must have more better audio equipment.Maybe you should accept what you already have is Good enough for now and instead take a new journey.

Try exploring for more different types of music.For example what many class as dance music is now in a category of it's own with hundreds possibly thousands of sub-category .

The variety is over whelming so go immerse your sense's in something new.

So in conclusion just try and enjoy the music because that is what it's all about.

Feel the Rhythm

 

[adrift]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jax /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why would I let anyone else tell me how I should perceive something? How can you tell what I perceive? How can a machine tell how I perceive something?

What if you and I were standing in an empty field. And in that empty field you told me there sat a house. Now both you and I go walk through the field and neither of us are able to touch or perceive the house in any other way, yet you're adamant that what you see before you is a house. Your "truth" is not objectively true, and therefore is false. I agree that if you believe that you see a house you perceive something, but whatever it is, it isn't really, in truth, objectively speaking, a house. It could be a delusion. A dream. Something else is going on that is probably psychological, but not actual.

Quote:

If there were no options then we'd all be listening to the same system with identical components. There are a rather significant number of options. Or; If preference had nothing to do with it, then you would be happy letting anyone choose your components for you because they all serve the same function: to reproduce music. The idea that preference has nothing to do with this stuff would make one wonder why anyone reads or contributes to a forum like this.

There's obviously a (measurable) difference between, say, something like a high voltage desk amp and a battery powered portable. There's a measurable/technical difference between different brands and types of headphones. As far as something like cables? Tubes? I don't know for certain, but from the data gathered, it appears possibly not.

Quote:

As far as cables go, if you hear no differences between cables, I am not surprised in the least (and that should give you a clue as to where I stand regarding cables, which I have thus far avoided commenting on - though it does not tell the whole story). In that case, I completely agree that you should buy the least expensive cables and save your money for more important things. Personally, I would not necessarily base my own decisions regarding such things by what machines and science can measure, because for me that has not proven to be an absolute point of reference (certainly it is A point of reference, but without a doubt, not the final word). If the concept of improving things were important to me I would try out options myself and make my own decisions based upon direct experience, with my system, my music, my room, and my ears. I've reached the point where such tweaking holds no particular allure to me, and I prefer just to enjoy my music with what I have. As far as the cable debate goes, if I wanted to discuss cables, I would have found or started a thread that was about that subject.

Well, I could be wrong, but I think cables were the main thrust of contention in the last few pages of this thread. But anyhow, the position you've made plain in your last couple posts seem far more reasonable to me than your earlier surmising on subjective truths (I know you said you believe truth is ultimately objective, but how you worded some of your posts seemed contrary). Again, I don't know for certain that cables (for instance) actually don't sound different for some people and that this is an ontological property of the cables themselves rather than a psychological manifestation of the listener, and that perhaps science just hasn't the right tools yet to test them properly (though the technical makeup of cables doesn't seem so complicated that it couldn't be tested, but I digress). So yes, I think its good to keep an open mind on this subject, even if its only a little open.

Let me ask you a question though, do you think its at all possible that the differences people perceive in something like cables can be purely psychological rather than based on any real mechanical property of the cable?

 

[ib1dance]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jax /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why would I let anyone else tell me how I should perceive something? How can you tell what I perceive?

It's called learning from one another .

If you perceive that if you jump of a 1000 metre high building you will discover the ability to defy gravity and not fall to your death.

I will try to alter your perception by telling you that in Truth you will fall to your death.

I will tell you this not because I wish to make you feel wrong but because as a fellow human being I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself.

Like you say though the choice is yours, nobody can force you to change your mind.

But back on with the thread if you did decided you did not want to jump. I could provide you with a Good quality and stretchy Audio cable that would not only have A superior insulation for you to grab hold of but also the correct cross sectional area so as to be able to take your weight.So you could climb down from the building .

Good cables matter.

On a side note but still on topic I produce music which is especially designed to sound nice no matter what quality is your cable.

Ok the cable bit was a lie.

 

[adrift]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ib1dance /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's called learning from one another . If you perceive that if you jump of a 1000 metre high building you will discover the ability to defy gravity and not fall to your death. I will try to alter your perception by telling you that in Truth you will fall to your death. I will tell you this not because I wish to make you feel wrong but because as a fellow human being I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself. Like you say though the choice is yours, nobody can force you to change your mind. But back on with the thread if you did decided you did not want to jump. I could provide you with a Good quality and stretchy Audio cable that would not only have A superior insulation for you to grab hold of but also the correct cross sectional area so as to be able to take your weight.So you could climb down from the building . Good cables matter. On a side note but still on topic I produce music which is especially designed to sound nice no matter what quality is your cable. Ok the cable bit was a lie.

I think a better analogy would be the perceived benefit of placebo drugs. The doctor knows its only sugar in a pill, and that whatever benefits the patient is experiencing is based upon some sort of psychological fake out. In some instances this psychological fake out may be positive (maybe for hypochondria for instance), and possibly there truly are some positive benefits received from the change in mental disposition (mind healing body), but audio isn't on the same level (to me anyways) as medicine. This hobby is entertainment. I want the best I can get for the lowest price.

I think any rational person would want the same (or I hope so at any rate).

 

[ib1dance]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrift /img/forum/go_quote.gif What if you and I were standing in an empty field. And in that empty field you told me there sat a house. Now both you and I go walk through the field and neither of us are able to touch or perceive the house in any other way, yet you're adamant that what you see before you is a house. Your "truth" is not objectively true, and therefore is false. I agree that if you believe that you see a house you perceive something, but whatever it is, it isn't really, in truth, objectively speaking, a house. It could be a delusion. A dream. Something else is going on that is probably psychological, but not actual.

Wow! I tell you some of these builders are dodgy.I mean you pay some builder to buy you a house.He takes your cash and builds you a imaginary or psychological house.

People speak of a dream home but I'm sure the above is not what they imagine.

Lots of cables in a modern house.most you can't see because their in the walls and under the floors.

But they are their you just need to know where to look.

 

[adrift]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ib1dance /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow! I tell you some of these builders are dodgy.I mean you pay some builder to buy you a house.He takes your cash and builds you a imaginary or psychological house. People speak of a dream home but I'm sure the above is not what they imagine. Lots of cables in a modern house.most you can't see because their in the walls and under the floors. But they are their you just need to know where to look.

lol, dream house. now that's funny.

Just for clarification, i'm not calling jax or any one else here deluded, I'm merely making an analogy that may or may not apply to perceived differences in cables. I, personally, haven't heard a great deal of different cables and hold off final judgment till then, but I see how the skeptic is reasonably.... skeptical.

 

[jax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ib1dance /img/forum/go_quote.gif <snip> The enjoyment is in the new experience so instead of thinking to enjoy music more you must have more better audio equipment.Maybe you should accept what you already have is Good enough for now and instead take a new journey. Try exploring for more different types of music.For example what many class as dance music is now in a category of it's own with hundreds possibly thousands of sub-category . The variety is over whelming so go immerse your sense's in something new. So in conclusion just try and enjoy the music because that is what it's all about. Feel the Rhythm

Amen.

I'd add that it's been my own experience that the tweaking, and obsessing over minor details, for me, takes me away from experiencing and enjoying the music at this point. I've enjoyed such efforts and experimenting in the past, and have welcomed them as an opportunity to socialize with others of like mind at times. If that's what you actually enjoy doing, have at it. I do understand the rewarding aspect of it, and have not abandoned it altogether, but just prefer to set it and forget it. I've come to the realization, after 30 years of being in this hobby, that life is short and fragile (personal losses will bring that concept home with alarming clarity). Life is way to short for me to justify obsessing over relatively minor details like cables. I personally much prefer enjoying the music, over focusing my attention on the gear that delivers it to me. I find that I can escape into the music. At best, it takes me entirely out of my head. It certainly makes almost any day oh so much more enjoyable.

 

[ib1dance]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrift /img/forum/go_quote.gif but audio isn't on the same level (to me anyways) as medicine. This hobby is entertainment. I want the best I can get for the lowest price. I think any rational person would want the same (or I hope so at any rate).

You don't comprehend the health benefits of music as I do then and you are in the majority.

And you don't believe or perceive that your living in the Rhythm of life .Maybe you think that is a irrational point of view.But you will be like me a creature of timing,pattern,movement and Rhythm.

Their is in rational medicine a place for music.Their are hospitals in America( so I have read ) & maybe else where that are using music therapy on patients.

The idea that life is based on Rhythms is not new, the 'term' Rhythm is getting used more and more in popular science especially when studying the natural world.

Medicine is a cure at best

Dance can be a prevention

Those whom disagree simply are those whom have not given their all to it.

But hey it wasn't that long ago that the popular opion KNEW the world was flat.

As has been mentioned in this thread reality is ont a subject of the human brain.Life is not a popularity contest.

In fact usually it's the minority who adapt enough in order to survive.