[John2e]

Regarding blind testing

Assuming you had a equalizer and adjusted the 100-140 range by 1 decible, could you in a blind test identify which one was flat and which had the decible boast. I really do not think anyone could consistently identify it. But there is a measurable difference.

Please explain what our brains are doing in this situation.....

 

[rhythmdevils]

Sometimes I wonder if the people who make such confident scientific claims that cables make no difference have actually ever tried it. Shike, have you ever listened to an HD650 with stock cable, and switched to something like a Silver Dragon? The difference is not that subtle. The most notable change is not even a matter of changing refinement or detail, it is a change in the sound signature of the headphone- more treble. It's not as extreme as changing to completely different headphones of course, but it is similar to the affect that different acoustic spaces have on the sound of speakers.

Which makes me wonder if you can measure the difference between speakers in different rooms...

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif Which goes against what he just said about the visual characteristics of each. Your theory also doesn't hold with my situation, but you can go ahead and keep on telling people what their brains are doing if you want...

Subconscious, I'm sure you've heard of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aristos_achaion I'm always a little curious why so many people try so hard to disprove that someone else is hearing what they say they are. It's all about music, and music is psychological...if I think that tube rolling in my EF1 produces different and interesting sounds, or somebody else thinks a Zu Mobius cable on an HD650 produces a better sound, why are people interested in trying to prove otherwise? Are people really so insecure about their equipment that they need to detract from someone else's enjoyment?

It's misleading as a whole. A noob comes in and is told they need to purchase $1K cables to fix their purchase. It's wrong and genuinely dishonest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils Sometimes I wonder if the people who make such confident scientific claims that cables make no difference have actually ever tried it. Shike, have you ever listened to an HD650 with stock cable, and switched to something like a Silver Dragon?

Since I don't have a HD650 the question itself has little relevance to me. However I've tried various interconnects.

Here's a question for you though. Do you get a trial for "male enhancement", even though it's a well known fact by the medical community that they don't work?

Have you traveled around the world to make sure it's round?

Do you spend days deriving constants in math to make sure they never change?

To take science and math at face value in other areas, but to blatantly ignore it in others is . . . meh.

Quote:

Which makes me wonder if you can measure the difference between speakers in different rooms...

Yes, wall reflections, resonance, and other factors do change the response among other things.

 

[rhythmdevils]

hmmm. so here we have someone who has x amount of scientific knowledge, but 0 listening experience with the question at hand debating with someone who has listening experience, but 0 scientific knowledge of the question at hand. That makes for a pretty useless dialog in my opinion.

But I do have a hard time going with the argument that something does not exist because it has not yet been proven to exist scientifically, when I can hear it for myself. I would love to discover that cables make no difference, I could then cross them off the list of important things to save up for. If I hadn't just sold my Silver Dragon cable, i'd do more listening and try not to hear a difference.

 

[aristos_achaion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif Since I don't have a HD650 the question itself has little relevance to me. However I've tried various interconnects.

I can certainly see where that wouldn't produce much change, but give cables (beyond a few interconnects) a chance before you categorically dismiss them on those grounds.
Quote:

Here's a question for you though. Do you get a trial for "male enhancement", even though it's a well known fact by the medical community that they don't work? Have you traveled around the world to make sure it's round? Do you spend days deriving constants in math to make sure they never change? To take science and math at face value in other areas, but to blatantly ignore it in others is . . . meh.

For most of those, we don't have to constantly experiment, since we all agree on them (except, of course, the math, which *is* re-derived ad naseum in college math classes, but I digress). But if I were talking to a flat-earther, I'd probably have to come up with an experiment to show the earth is round (probably involving a tall ship and the horizon more than travelling around the earth). Just insisting the Earth is round because science says so won't cut it in that case.

This sounds a little more like Aristotle's theory that heavier objects fall faster: everybody believed him, because he was Aristotle and because it made sense (and, in uncontrolled tests, he seems to be right, because of air resistance). That was science, until Galileo came along and noticed what was actually happening didn't jive with the theory. When what's happening IRL doesn't agree with what science says should, you don't try to explain it away or rail against it...you reevaluate your theory.

 

[aristos_achaion]

Reminds me of the old saying "In theory, theory and practice work out the same". There's a lot that goes on, a lot of which is in our heads (and a lot of which is out of our hands). That's not bad, that's just the way it is.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif hmmm. so here we have someone who has x amount of scientific knowledge, but 0 listening experience with the question at hand debating with someone who has listening experience, but 0 scientific knowledge of the question at hand. That makes for a pretty useless dialog in my opinion.

Not really. Ever wondered why those certain pill companies are still alive? People are inclined to believe there's a difference no matter how many times it's been shown there isn't. Does a doctor need to try it for himself before he tells the patient they really don't work?

This feels more like a debate in religion more than anything else.

Quote:

But I do have a hard time going with the argument that something does not exist because it has not yet been proven to exist scientifically, when I can hear it for myself. I would love to discover that cables make no difference, I could then cross them off the list of important things to save up for. If I hadn't just sold my Silver Dragon cable, i'd do more listening and try not to hear a difference.

Unless you were doing a level matched DBT it would be pretty useless. As long as you know what you're listening to there's a chance your subconscious can interfere. Then we still have to measure the cables to make sure they're built as to not interfere with the signal under your listening conditions.

For example, if I strip the shielding off a cable and run it around my house when I live next to a radio tower odds are the results won't be good even though they sound different (though it's not the cable that sounds different, it's the interference).

Quote:

Originally Posted by aristos_achaion When what's happening IRL doesn't agree with what science says should, you don't try to explain it away or rail against it...you reevaluate your theory.

Except when really tried with a DBT what's happening IRL does agree with science.

 

[John2e]

What! Those male enhancements do not work... Arrggg!!! Could you explain the parameters of the DBT test for that one

 

[eucariote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by semisight /img/forum/go_quote.gif a perceived difference does not equal an actual difference

disclaimer- I have no experience/opinion about the efficacy of cable, etc so please allow me to sidestep that issue.

However, that statement needs to be fixed up. If the tester is blind to the source, and someone helping to conduct a test is also blind as to not give away the answer with cues (DBT), perceived differences can indicate real differences. The standard scientific criterion for rejecting the null hypothesis (and saying that some effect is not due to chance variation) is alpha <.05, which means that the likelihood of a result happening by random is less than 5%. If you could correctly identify something (say A>B) six times in a row (2^6, = 0.016 chance of happening by random), you could reject the null hypothesis and say that A>B. If another tester (lab) independently arrives at the same results, than a scientific result can be said to be well-founded, which is about as close as you can come to stating a 'fact' in science.

 

[Aynjell]

Quote:

Originally Posted by John2e /img/forum/go_quote.gif What! Those male enhancements do not work... Arrggg!!! Could you explain the parameters of the DBT test for that one

Wow, I can feel it growing more when I take this pill...

Smilin' Bob is all the confirmation I need.

 

[John2e]

He's one happy Santa

 

[Aynjell]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not really. Ever wondered why those certain pill companies are still alive? People are inclined to believe there's a difference no matter how many times it's been shown there isn't. Does a doctor need to try it for himself before he tells the patient they really don't work?

This is off topic and based on bioligy and/or theory. Leave it outside of a technical discussion. We're talking about headphone "myths", not penis enlargement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif This feels more like a debate in religion more than anything else.

The only person who's blindly accepting anything is you. Have you tried using variable cables with a Sennheiser HD650? You've answered this question once with a clear and conclusive "no". You're arguing against the idea with zero evidence for your point, or to the contrary for that matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif Except when really tried with a DBT what's happening IRL does agree with science.

You've not tested back and forth, so you have no basis to claim this other than your own religion, as you so elegantly put it. As was already stated, the stock cable wasn't sufficient for the headphone, so upgrading to any cable is going to improve the sound quality. Some phones like grado's wouldn't need such a thing.

I'm neither for or against cables, I just don't see a point in bashing the idea prior to even try it. No science supported a round world years ago, but look where we are now. Stop being a witch burner, kthx.

 

[aristos_achaion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif As long as you know what you're listening to there's a chance your subconscious can interfere.

Seriously, we're talking about music here. Part of music is enjoyment, and enjoyment is psychological. If somebody can hear an audible difference between two cables, that's not "interference".

Quote:

Except when really tried with a DBT what's happening IRL does agree with science.

Excellent. Of course I'll believe you, then. However, I suppose you wouldn't mind providing me with a citation first? A detailed description of the methodologies used, sample sizes, and potential sources of error?

Seriously, when a proper DBT is done with a statistically valid sample size (and not just grilling some poor soul for a few minutes) and rigorous, unbiased methodologies, I'll believe you. I have yet to see a single citation from the "scientific" DBT crowd...there's massive selection bias and a fanatical worship of anything labelled "DBT", whether or not it's in any way valid.

 

[aristos_achaion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aynjell /img/forum/go_quote.gif No science supported a round world years ago

OT, but I feel compelled to point out that Eratosthenes measured the curvature of the Earth in Greek times, and the world's roundness was well known before and during Columbus's time. The problem was that nobody knew how big Asia was...Isabella's advisers estimated about right, and pointed out that Columbus's crew would starve before they got there...Columbus massively underestimated the distance he'd have to travel, but lucked out with North America being in the way.

However, this could easily be said about atomic theory, elements, oxygen-fueled combustion (phlogiston FTW!), and germ theory (turns out that bleeding people wasn't a good idea). Science keeps getting things wrong, and that's what keeps it going. Something as complex as sonic aesthetics is dreadfully hard to pin down.

I probably ought to point out that I'm by no means a cable believer...I haven't tried cable rolling on my HD580s, b/c there's general consensus that it doesn't produce cost-effective results, given my level of newbishness. But I'm certainly not going to dismiss it out of hand.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sometimes I wonder if the people who make such confident scientific claims that cables make no difference have actually ever tried it. Shike, have you ever listened to an HD650 with stock cable, and switched to something like a Silver Dragon? The difference is not that subtle. The most notable change is not even a matter of changing refinement or detail, it is a change in the sound signature of the headphone- more treble. It's not as extreme as changing to completely different headphones of course, but it is similar to the affect that different acoustic spaces have on the sound of speakers. Which makes me wonder if you can measure the difference between speakers in different rooms...

Yes, I have tried - and owned - a number of cables. I had the Blue Dragon and the Cardas on my HD-600 and HD-650.

The difference? A whole lot of nothing. I rotated all four cables (including the stock ones) through the two headphones and heard nothing. I owned them for about two years, as well. I kept them because they're physically nice cables.

I also kept them precisely because of arguments like this. If you want to imply that I'm not financially able to afford a cable and am somehow jealous, you're dead wrong. I'm not going to get into personal finances, but let's say that I'm comfortable.

I also threw those cables onto the DMM and oscilloscope. Nada. Again, a whole, steaming pile of nothing. If you're so keen to drop bills on cables, why don't you put aside a few hundred for a used Tektronix 'scope? Maybe you could prove us all wrong.

You might even make a significant contribution to electronics and physics, while you're at it. If your argument about cables is correct, there's an entire field of undiscovered science out there. You could end up with a Nobel Prize or an element named after you.

Either that, or cable manufacturers are just trying to turn a buck on the credulous. But humans never try to make money off the gullible, do they?