The "Lovely Cube" Headphone Amp (Lehmann Black Cube Linear Clone)
Jan 27, 2011 at 1:55 PM Post #316 of 1,624
Hi all, 
I'm choosing between HLLY HIGH END SMK-III (where there are everything i want) and LC.
 
If I buy LC,  what usb dac is better to buy for it? Almost all ebay and amazon DACs already have amps, it's a pity - i don't want to overpay for useless amp :)
It will be useful optical and coaxial input and usb2 support, and of cause enough sound quality for LC.
 
May be something like that: 
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Hifi-USB-Sound-Card-w-Digital-Output-Monitor01-USD-/270696739823?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f06c873ef
?
 
Please advise me.
 
Jan 27, 2011 at 3:27 PM Post #317 of 1,624
evgark
 
Most of DAC-s have an amp. But those amps always have weak spots. For example Matrix Mini I is enough good DAC but amp is slightly week. I don't say that it doesn't have resolution and dynamics. No. It just doesn't have power and energy to show full potential of headphones. Even for low impedance headphones.
 
Separate DAC and AMP is good choice, but here we have another problem. Synergy. All DACs listed below are good enough for "driving" your LC. But you can't know if there will be good synergy between them. And you can't know which combination will suit you best. I tried few DACs and amps before I made conclusion. For example, E-MU 0404 is sterile, flat and boring, I think best for studio. Dr. DAC has sick resolution and aggressive interpretation and in many occasions listener starts to think about mistakes and bad recording and not about music. Matrix Mini I has the least resolution from those two before, and it is far from "technically excellent" DAC, but it is beautiful for listening because of warm, emotional and fluid interpretation. It shows you music, not the studio failures. Someone needs something else....
 
Look for this...
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/CSG-STRAIGHT-USB-DAC-RCA-LINE-OUTS-based-PCM2702-/180519936280?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a07d3a118
 
Or this...
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/AUNE-Nano-Top-quality-PCM2707-USB-DAC-Nice-Mini-DAC-/180562180223?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0a58387f
 
Or this...
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Fubar-II-USB-DAC-Silver-Face-Plate-USB-Audio-/260724871787?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3cb469d26b
 
All this DACs will give you good results and run LC properly. All.
The same topology can be changed in many ways with small things... Resistors, capacitors, transistors... Even solder can give different signature... :)
 
Buy DAC, but amp - DIY.
 
Jan 28, 2011 at 2:55 AM Post #318 of 1,624
 
BlaBlaBla
 
Thanks for your comprehensive answer.
 
Fubar II and CGS from your links have PCM2702, which supports only 16/44.1.
Aune nano uses usb1 so i think there is the same situation.
 
Is it useful to have 24 bit?
 
I found this kit
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-24-192-DAC-DA-CONVERTER-CS8416-CS8421-PCM1798-USB-/160518883450?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255fabc87a
 it is rather expensive.
 
Also there is 
http://cgi.ebay.com/MOCHA-24-96-Stereo-DAC-USB-ster-digital-Sound-card-/120644872236?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c16fea82c#ht_2942wt_882
but it hasn't optical input.
 
Jan 28, 2011 at 5:42 AM Post #319 of 1,624
I think that 24bit, over USB, does not have any sense. Most of USB ports on usual PCs do not have bandwidth for that. As far as I know, there is 44.1/16bit and 48/16bit. If you want 24bit (without problems) then you need optical, BNC or coaxial input.
 
The best of all is optical input. It has no interference but it is very sensitive to way of handling.
 
BNC and Coax inputs demad good shielded cable (interference). Good for rough handling.
 
USB is less prone to interference than BNC and Coax, but it can pick noises from its own switch PSU unit (a lot of noises, cracks and other stuff - personally I do not like that).
 
If you transport signal shortdistances and do not need 96kHz (only CD recordings), USB (44.1/16bit) will be sufficient for listening to music.
If you need transport signals on short distances (but 96kHz, 24bit is a must), than shielded BNC/Coax.
If you need transport signals on long distances (more than 5m, and it does not matter if it is 44.1 or 96kHz) optical audio cable is a must.
 
I think, carefully built SATCH NOS DAC (44.1kHz/16bit) will destroy everything under 2000 USD (regardless 192kHz and 24bits). (subjective opinion)
 
Jan 28, 2011 at 8:58 AM Post #323 of 1,624
 
Hi evgark,
 
 
My favorite combination, GRADO and Tokyo-Sound Valve-X.
I have owned headphones GRADO HF-2, MS-2, MS-1, SR80 ...
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/438785/tokyo-sound-valve-x-se-tube-headphone-amp
 
Currently, Lovely Cube and Edition8, AH-D5000 are used in combination.
(OPAMP is a OPA2111AM)
This combination "Vampire Weekend" has become a daily routine to listen to. 
bigsmile_face.gif

 
 
 
Hi BlaBlaBla,
 
 
AD900 is for watching movies. (with JVC SU-DH1)
It is a delicate than AD900 AD700. A lot of information.
AD2000 is flat.
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/351231/ath-ad900-vs-ath-ad1000-vs-ath-ad2000
 
 
Jan 28, 2011 at 9:40 AM Post #325 of 1,624
BlaBlaBla,
You want the USB-DAC?
USB-DAC is depending on the budget. 
 
 
 
Quote:

Matrix mini-i also has headphone amp. Is there a great difference between it and Lovely Cube sound and musical quality?
 

 
 
I am not using the headphone out of MATRIX mini-i. 
The output of Lovely Cube is good by several steps. 
 
Lovely Cube >> MATRIX mini-i's HPA
 
 
MATRIX mini-i is great as a multi-input DAC.
 
I'm using MATRIX mini-i to "mod".
HPA is not reworked.
 
Please see this thread.
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/441960/matrix-mini-i-balanced-dac-hp-amp/600#post_7218464
 

 
Jan 28, 2011 at 3:50 PM Post #326 of 1,624
New Matrix is out?!
I will wait 8-10 months to see upcoming reviews. Old Matrix Mini I was best buy, and hard to beat (for the price).
A new one has difficult task. We will see... :)
 
T.IIZUKA
 
Thanks for link!
 
evgark do not think that Matrix Mini I does not have good headphone out. It has. And its headphone out is better than most PC sound cards on the market. Especially when stereo separation and musicality comes to play...... But...
 
.... it is below LC.
 
Changing capacitors is tricky work. I was changing capacitors in Matrix M Stage a lot. Tried Panasonic FC (deep, low but rounded), Panasonic FM (fast, wide and aggressive), Cerafines (warm, relaxed and emotional), Philips BC (dry, centered and hard), lower capacity of MUSE (king of female vocals and violins). In signal line I tried Vishay ERO MKC, ERO KP, Epcos MKT, Wima MKP, Philips Tin Foil, German Styroflex, Mylar, even old Russian K71-7.  All of them had good and bad points. The worst thing was when I replaced stock OPA with 2xOPA627. Then I had to try all again, because caps have bigger influence on sound when OPA627 was there. Sometimes more advanced and better classified capacitors can give you worse sound (Sound that you do not like.).Perfect combination, sometimes, involves caps with different signature. For example: big ERO MKC (warm, strong and centered) bypassed with German Styroflex (dynamic, relaxed and wide), or big WIMA MKP (deep and relaxed but bit fuzzy) bypassed with small ERO KP (open and excellent positioning), big Epcos MKT (dry, straight and bright) bypassed with small Mylar (liquid and emotional). It is all about trial and error... Until you find your "perfect combination". For your setup (source + DAC + cable + headphones)... :))))
 
What if you change headphones? Well... Start again...
bigsmile_face.gif

 
What? I have not mentioned replacing and trying different resistors in a circuit, or even transistors???!!! Well...
atsmile.gif


 
Jan 29, 2011 at 2:09 AM Post #329 of 1,624
Hi francisdemarte,
Laser Collection's clones are not bad, I compared their PCB with the original Lehmann Black Cube Linear PCB and you would think the PCB’s have come from the same Gerber (CAD) files.
Two things though to watch with the clone, I was suspicious of the semiconductors shipped with the kit, we ended up replacing the diodes in the power supply with genuine PHILIPS (NXP) BYV27-200 as per the original, similarly, the LM337 and LM317 replaced with genuine NSC parts.
(When I visited China last year there was a lot of talk in the industry of local backyard companies making inferior clone components and then trying to pass them off as genuine name brand parts - several large companies got stung buying nasty clone decoupling caps that cost a lot to recall product and rectify the situation....it's a real wild west there...)
 
Again, replace the OPA2134 with the genuine thing from TI/BB. But the real catch is in the diamond buffer output stage: The clone comes with BC560 and BC550, replacing these with Fairchild’s BC560C and BC550C (hFE selection: C) and then replacing the output transistors also with FAIRCHILD BD139-16 and BD140-16 (hFE Selection: Group 16) this amp really comes to life!!! (The current gain of the transistors hFE is important here and what makes the difference between the Lehmann and the clone knock-off's from an audio point of view)
 
The original Lehmann uses these high beta devices in the output stage - I wouldn't be surprised at all if they hand S.O.T. these parts before they stick them in the PCB: When you look at the genuine Lehmann PCB, the passive components, diodes and regulators look as though they've been wave soldered (e.g. Machine Soldered) while the BD139/140s and especially the BC550C/560C look as if they've been hand soldered - tell tail signs these parts have been Selected on Test (S.O.T.) before being mounted on the PCB, or they were faulty and the board was re-worked - doubt it some how! After all they're Germans, and it's inherent in their culture to measure and calculate everything! No doubt Lehmann will be matching for beta and may be VBE in the NPN and PNP driver stage in each channel - matching NPN and PNP devices is time consuming and expensive, especially with German labour rates...Or, as they sit so high off the PCB, it's just too hard to support them during Wave Soldering - this is going to be one of those unknowns...they'll probably read this and then proclaim that they measure eveything...
 
(If you can get the original PHILIPS (NXP) versions of the BD139-16 and BD140-16 – this amp kicks arse. PHILIPS produced a superior fT rating of better than 150MHz (the ones I have measure better than the data sheet: ft=150MHz for the NPN and ft=220MHz for the PNP!!!) compared to around 50MHz for the ST parts –haven’t bothered to measure the ON SEMI parts; for some reason, probably embarrassed, neither ST nor FAIRCHILD will disclose the fT switching characteristics, we ended up measuring it on a test rig at work – things you do on a Friday afternoon waiting for the weekend!
Also, the PHILIPS BD139-16 and BD140-16 seem to have hFE that measure on the high side and are very consistent amongst a production batch, so it is easier to get the left and right channels matched)
( I don’t know why NXP killed the BD139 and BD140 product line – unbeknown only to a bloody Dutchman! Their BC550C and BC560C were the best in the industry! The beta variation in batches of these devices was so small you could stick them into a differential stage of an amp without a care in the world as to their beta variation; on the other hand IMO On Semi devices are a nightmare – you have to measure every part for hFE and VBE variation to find two that come close (2%) when using them for a differential pair stage, but they are cheap, price wise! )
 
 
We didn’t trust the input caps supplied with the clone kit either, 1,5uF Polyester and not sure about the 22nF. We ended putting in 1,5uF EPCOS Metallised PP B32654 and the BC KP462 (2222 462 .....) Polypropylene 22nF and things really got better.
 
Also the 100pF (correction) cap across the non-inverting inputs of the OPAMP needs to be replaced with the genuine McCoy BC KP464 (2222 464 .....) F 630V PP 100pF.
Lastly, we replaced the 4.700uF Electrolytics with genuine NICHICON parts from MOUSER, actually the FM Series PANASONIC turned out to be a better bet.
 
IMO: The biggest issue with the knock-off’s from CHINA, such as the Lovely Cube, is that the people doing the cloning don’t pay enough attention to the subtleties in component selection used in the original circuit / product– they tend to build the stuff with whatever they can get their hands on without any real thought to the quality of what they are producing – shame really!
 
Either way, I could never afford to buy the genuine Lehmann - just too pricy by the time it gets down to NZ! I saw it in a shop locally, listened to it and thought nice sound, but no way was it worth the money they were asking (NZD$1900) - I just had to walk away from it. When the kit came up on eBay I jumped at it.
 
Then I got the chance to pull the lid off a friend's Lehmann and spotted all of the above...
 
Stayed tuned for the next instalment...more to come,,,,
smily_headphones1.gif

 
Jan 29, 2011 at 9:49 AM Post #330 of 1,624
I replaced all except BD-s, diodes and regulators. But not because I do not have confidence in LC seller but because I wanted to do something on my own.
BD-s made by Philips is hard to find. BC-s even harder. Diodes are 3USD each. Input caps (Mundorf SI) are miles away from stock Nichicons but they also cost 3 times more. In Croatia it is equal which brand you use, because here we get stuff from China. Only way is to look abroad. I ordered something from Canada. Now I have to look for rest...
 
In Lovely Cube I got Philips BD139 and BD140 (PH83 and PH87). In Matrix M Stage are ST DB139 and BD140. Philips is better (better gain).
 
I can not say anything about BC-s because in Matrix M Stage is Philips BC550C/BC560C and in Lovely Cube I got something with Wxxx part number. I replaced that with BC109C (CSC) and BC179C (CDIL). And results are stunning. If you are lucky you will get Philips. If you are not, you can buy 20-30 parts BC-s and find the good one. (That is reason why I always have spare 109C/179C bought in a trusted store in Germany.)
 

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