[Mimouille]

Man, someone got served. It is so obvious I won't mention who, but so satisfying I will perform a little dance.

 

[ranfan]

Man, someone got served. It is so obvious I won't mention who, but so satisfying I will perform a little dance.

Spoiler

 

[Rei87]

Rei, there are several fallacies in your logic. The most important is that in this and your other posts, you’re equating ‘detail’ as a measure of resolution, and technical performance in general. But that really isn’t the case. Detail is among others the combined result of transparency, resolution, background blackness, and separation. Those are all individual technical constructs. But even more than those, the amount of detail results from the treble tuning, which decisively isn’t.

You’re trying to make a case for technical performance by comparing the Dream to the 5-Way Ult. Even though I don’t recognize most of your description, you’re right that the 5-Way Ult has a darker tuning because of its attenuated treble. But ironically, the 5-Way Ult has better top-end extension, and both greater resolution and transparency than the Dream. The difference however is that the Dream is more upfront in its detail, resulting from the brightness of its 5 KHz peak. So even by objective technical standards, the Ult outperforms the Dream.

Disregarding tone, coherency, and basically the picture as a whole just in favor of detail, is a very crude way to score iems. From a logical perspective, it doesn’t make much sense because that isn’t the way people listen to music; at least for the rest of us. To stick with your leaf analogy, it doesn’t matter if someone draws the most detailed picture of a leaf; it it’s drawn in black and white, it will resemble a leaf just as much as a toddler’s drawing that’s in the exact right color. The best picture will always be the one that balances both to some degree, rather than skewing it towards either end.

I think at this point, I’ve probably written 10 A4 pages in posts emphasizing how important personal preference is. Your post again only proves that. You find detail the most important, and as a result, the Dream is your ‘perfect’ iem. It’s something I can definitely understand, because the Dream has unique qualities that I too can appreciate. But making an argument that ‘detail’ is the only thing that should be scored by, might be stretching it a bit. If that was the case, the Dunu DN-2000j would probably rank higher than most of these iems. Not because of resolution, transparency, and certainly not timbre; but because it maxes out the treble. Do you honestly think that that is a fair assessment?

With regards to your counter, then it too raises the similar question, of WHO gets to decide, beyond questionable doubt, where that 'balance' between the two lies. Of course, this being YOUR listing, you have every right to decide the balance. But, I am sure that you must have some system of measurement, that is beyond protest. To disregard tone, coherency and picture and only focus on transparency may be a crude way, agreed. But, it is the only criteria that surpasses all personal preferences and beyond protest. I, should not be able to disagree with a ranking system, because the results are in and of itself unquestionable due to the system of measurement used.

Moving on to your second point. "it doesn’t matter if someone draws the most detailed picture of a leaf; it it’s drawn in black and white, it will resemble a leaf just as much as a toddler’s drawing that’s in the exact right color." I must ask you to elaborate on your premise. On what defining criteria did it lead you to be able to pronounce them equal? To make a comparison, is to have utilized non-subjective system of measurement, which I assume is what has been employed here.

I can also think of many other real life examples and situations where products are designed for human usage and tuned for different human experiences, but still, people will still measure them based on non-subjective scales that completely removes the human experience, and rank them according to the score obtained. Just because it isnt the way we experience something, doesnt mean that we dont rank them in such a manner. Because rankings, should seek to be beyond reproach based on a non-subjective experience. You may call it crude, but we employ such systems of measurements all the time in life.

Also, I think that your assertion of maxing treble = details, is a strawman argument. While indeed treble is one way manufacturers utilize to give the idea of transparency, I have never once stated that only the treble matters. I did, i believe, explicitly mention that a clear, non-muddy bass that doesnt mask details is important. I ahve never heard the Dunu, but if it is also able to articulate every single detail in a song, in the treble, mid and bass, making it akin to reading the song sheet as opposed to listening to the music, then yes, I would rank it higher, even if I hated the sound signature. Because it fulfills the one, single standard of measure that surpasses personal preference.


I would however like to state, that my opposition to your ranking system was not borne our of some some childish desire to ' get you served' , or to boost a personal ego that is tied to the ownership and ranking of an IEM. Rather, its to highlight that rankings based on personal opinions is simply poor science (not 'science' literal sense) as it invalidates itself. We are all adults here, and we of course engage each other with decorum and pride in our discourse without making ad hominen attacks. I simply wish to contribute towards a ranking result that has raised mild questions, into one that is unquestionable based on its standard of measure. In other words, one may disagree with the system of measure used, but neither can one disagree with the ranking that results from it.

 

[PinkyPowers]

Of course, this being YOUR listing, you have every right to decide

That right there is the sentiment which should have ended this before it ever began.

 

[Wyville]

There is a lot I can say here, but let's get to the core of your argument...

But, I am sure that you must have some system of measurement, that is beyond protest.

But, it is the only criteria that surpasses all personal preferences and beyond protest.

To make a comparison, is to have utilized non-subjective system of measurement, which I assume is what has been employed here.

people will still measure them based on non-subjective scales that completely removes the human experience,

Because rankings, should seek to be beyond reproach based on a non-subjective experience.

Because it fulfills the one, single standard of measure that surpasses personal preference.

Rather, its to highlight that rankings based on personal opinions is simply poor science (not 'science' literal sense) as it invalidates itself.

I simply wish to contribute towards a ranking result that has raised mild questions, into one that is unquestionable based on its standard of measure. In other words, one may disagree with the system of measure used, but neither can one disagree with the ranking that results from it.

I have listed here the most repeated statement you make, followed by a claim of "poor science", and I think it quite clearly indicates your aim here: To introduce absolute subjectivity. As I indicated earlier, that is simply not possible. I will go even further in stating that what you propose, ignoring relevant information, is far worse science. It is what we can refer to as "Cargo Cult Science" something that looks like science, but isn't. I understand what you would ideally like to see, but by forcing the reviewing process into that idealistic view you are making a caricature of it. Moreover, your proposed method of excluding human experience does not hold water. It might look like it does, but doesn't. If you want, I will be happy to go through it with you step by step to clarify what I mean. It is however a lot of work and my concentration is far from optimal at the moment, so that is not something I will do unless you are genuinely interested.

This is not an attack or anything against your personally, it is purely about your argument not presenting what you seem to think it presents.

 

[crinacle]

At some point, there's only so much objectiveness you can allow in a human-determined ranking system before we're edging into scientific-measurements territory. At that point we can just throw subjective impressions, signature and perceived response out of the window and simply look at impedance curves, FR stability, impulse response, spectral decays, square waves etc. to make a conclusion. None of that "I think x IEM sounds more detailed than y IEM" arbritrariness.

(In case anyone takes this the wrong way I am completely against that way of making shootouts. We hear with our ears and not with machines, and thus subjective impressions still form the basis of this hobby.)

 

[Overkill Red]

Somebody just got..

Consulted.

All the small jibes aside, I do feel like you can rank IEMs in certain tiers by technical performance, but can and should not rank them within those individual groups due to personal preference. For example, you can list the Zeus, A18 and Tia Fourte above the NT6 and katana, due to the clearly better technicalities. However, among the three you can't really say which is better since they all sound so differently. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Mimouille]

I think the most objective ranking system is the one that confirms that the iems I like are the best. Because I am quite objectively always right.

More seriously, the ranking system of many reviewers is unfortunately more often related to the money or perks they get from the brands...

Even though there is no objective system, if you cross the assessment of several people you consider reliable as their judgements had not disappointed you in the past, you usually get a fair idea of what something sounds like.

Now since the SE5 Ultimate was ranked number one by average Joe and Jelt, and is obviously in the top 8 here, there is more evidence of its quality than just my own confirmation bias, which I can fully admit.

 

[Kerouac]

We hear with our ears and not with machines, and thus subjective impressions still form the basis of this hobby.

Yep... I guess that is the way the cookie crumbles.

Now waiting patiently and looking forward to the upcoming #8 (which is normally my lucky number, with which I've never won anything in life so far)

Oh, and for what's it worth...I (think I) know Nic for quite some time now and I'm pretty confident that he's running this show (shootout) without any hidden agenda.

After reading his introduction post and linked articles it was clear to me how I had to interpret his reviews and ranking.
Of course I don't have his ears/brain, and sometimes I like an iems signature more or less than he does, but I completely put my trust in his descriptions/judgement.
Keep up the (imo) fantastic work

 

[subguy812]

There are a couple of keys things here:

1) Only one person started this thread...so it is clearly how Nic hears it. Listening is a personal thing. If you want to rate things the way you hear things, start your own shootout. It makes no sense to argue with another individual's senses.
2) It is not as if this shootout all of the sudden stops any and all future discussions about any of these IEM's. There are individual threads for them and discussions will continue.

I appreciate the effort it takes to put a shootout like this together. It is a lot of work. Anyone that writes reviews knows their written word is open to praise and criticism, I know it all too well. All of the IEM's in this shootout are TOTL and excel at what they do. If Nic handed them over to me and I did the same shootout I can assure you my order would be different as would almost everyone's. Nothing sounds crappy at this level...it all comes down to the signature you enjoy the most.

 

[Wyville]

Yep... I guess that is the way the cookie crumbles.

You just have to post these gifs that keep me perpetually distracted. Just as I was moving on from the ping pong!

 

[Kerouac]

You just have to post these gifs that keep me perpetually distracted...

Well, did it ever cross your mind (introducing paranoia) that somebody might have hired me to do so?

 

[subguy812]

Well, did it ever cross your mind (introducing paranoia) that somebody might have hired me to do so?

You are on the Muppets payroll now?

 

[Wyville]

Well, did it ever cross your mind (introducing paranoia) that somebody might have hired me to do so?

No. No it didn't cross my mind. But now you mention it...

"Hun?! Did you hire this Dutch bloke to drive me even more insane than I already am? Is that how you want to curb my audio spending? Get me admitted to a secure unit?" ...nice soft walls though. It's just that they always make the sleeves of the jacket too long.

 

[Overkill Red]

Don't forget those stupid belts.. They're so tight they actually restrict you..