[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

How about letting people believe what they want?

Depends how they gained their beliefs. If someone was perpetuating a myth as a belief and misinforming and making unfounded claims, should that not be challenged?
 

 

[sridhar3]

Quote:

If someone was perpetuating a myth as a belief and misinforming and making unfounded claims, should that not be challenged?

 
You mean like organized religion?

 

[Prog Rock Man]

No I am thinking more along the lines of consumer protection against misselling.

 

[Heidegger]

UE, I wasn't offering it as any sort of evidence. Personally, I've never cleaned a contact in my life, much less with a "high quality cleaner." I just plug in my rca cables and they pretty much stay plugged in forever unless I change gear or move it around.
Quote:

Heidigger, what does the manual's author base that on? Just because they wrote it doesn't mean a thing. I can write a manual that says that cables and cleaners mean nothing. Would my manual have the same weight as your manual? If so, how would you reconcile the contradiction? Also, appeal to authority is one of the classic logical fallacies.

If you want to appeal to testimonials, then I assert that that cables mean nothing. I've listened to several and they're all the same. I've also had quite a few audio devices from the 1940s through the 1960s. I've never noticed a difference with the old contacts/connectors. Even a good bit of corrosion doesn't matter.

Sure, that conflicts with popular cable mythology. But I've never seen any evidence to the contrary. If you have some, please post it.

 

 

[El_Doug]

yes, exactly like organized religion
 
Quote:

Quote:
 
You mean like organized religion?

 

 

[JRG1990]

I have tried this http://www.bluehorizonideas.com/cleanit.html , I cleaned every contact in my system with it, including the fuses, fuse holders, mains plugs / connectors, rca pins it does clean the contacts really well removes all dirt and they come up really shiny but there is no audible difference. 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

yes, exactly like organized religion
 


 

So the banks are organised religions? They have mis-sold credit, debt, insurance, mortgages etc etc. Then there are companies who have been found to be mis-selling diet pills and bogus medical cures. I am talking about consumer protection from companies and individuals who make bogus claims. Start off with Ben Goldacre's Bad Science if you really want to start to understand the impact of making bogus claims for products. You are barking up the wrong tree with religion.
 

 

[Lenni]

Quote:

 

You mean like organized religion?

 
yeah like the religion of science. 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

I know you guys like to use appeals to religion to try and dismiss arguments you do not like. I notice how none of you are able to directly challenge what I am talking about, which is using bogus claims to sell products.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/533881/russ-andrews-forced-to-withdraw-a-claim-about-power-cables
 
The more expensive a cable, the more likely it needs pseudoscience claims, which are usually bogus to try and justify the price. Cheaper cables, especially those used in the pro audio world, cannot use such psuedoscience to sell as it does not work on those who know about what they are buying.
 
Other reasons not to buy high end audiophile cables are
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/461656/warren-audio-s-broken-hd800-cables
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/551156/whiplash-twag-cables-turning-green-split-from-jh13-appreciation-thread
 
where smaller makers do not have the quality control the larger makers have.
 
All of the above is very useful information when helping people to decide on the best cables for the money.
 
 

 

[El_Doug]

Banks are not organized religions, that is a really stupid comment that you know is not true, and using it to dismiss my statement is rather insulting.  You know as well as anyone that as far as banks go, there is still proof that they (1) exist, and (2) their products are based in reality, bound by contract law.  As for the people who buy these products, when their house is foreclosed on, they damned sure blame the bank, and do not make any statement such as, "sure I lost my house, but it wasnt because my mortgage was taken away... it was because of some immeasurable force that you are simply too ignorant to try to understand, and have not experienced because you still have your house." 
 
On the other hand, cable companies are exactly LIKE organized religion, in that they make completely baseless claims about miraculous levels of effect without a single shred of measurable change, while managing to charge a lot of money.  Their customers, who come to their defense, do so with levels of zeal that would impress the crusaders, based on pure blind faith alone. 
 
Quote:

So the banks are organised religions? They have mis-sold credit, debt, insurance, mortgages etc etc. Then there are companies who have been found to be mis-selling diet pills and bogus medical cures. I am talking about consumer protection from companies and individuals who make bogus claims. Start off with Ben Goldacre's Bad Science if you really want to start to understand the impact of making bogus claims for products. You are barking up the wrong tree with religion.

 

 
edit:  removed bank debate, focused more on difference between banks and cable companies
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

I love the way you describe my comment as stupid and then complain about being insulted. One rule for you and another for the rest?
 
Anyway, there has been a mix up here as I believed sridhar3 and then yourself were comparing what I had to say with challenging religion. It is not, it is about challenging claims made by industry to sell things, in this case cable companies. I used banks as an example as they have repeatedly mis-sold all sorts of products for years now. As far as I am concerned, the hifi industry is also guilty of wholesale mis-selling, particularly with cables.

 

[Rdr. Seraphim]

Touché... 
 
Quote:

 
yeah like the religion of science. 

 

 

[Permagrin]

Since this debate has never been settled I submit that as proof that cables actually may affect the signal. Thank you.

 

[El_Doug]

So many passive aggressive personal attacks :/  Can't give it a rest, eh? 
 
My initial comment had nothing to do with what you said, I was expressing my own, separate opinion about cables/religion - I did not mean to suggest that I was interpreting your post.  If it did seem so, I apologize.  However, I WAS in fact comparing cable companies with religion   Whether anyone wants to challenge either is up to them.  While you took the angle of false sales tactics, I am taking the angle of blind faith in spite of zero evidence.  I hope this clears it up for you
 
Quote:

I love the way you describe my comment as stupid and then complain about being insulted. One rule for you and another for the rest?
 
Anyway, there has been a mix up here as I believed sridhar3 and then yourself were comparing what I had to say with challenging religion. It is not, it is about challenging claims made by industry to sell things, in this case cable companies. I used banks as an example as they have repeatedly mis-sold all sorts of products for years now. As far as I am concerned, the hifi industry is also guilty of wholesale mis-selling, particularly with cables.

 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

Since this debate has never been settled I submit that as proof that cables actually may affect the signal. Thank you.

There is proof in the Sound Science part of this forum and for further reading google audiophile cables and then you have to sift through a mountain of bunk, flame wars and trolling. I agree the debate has never been settled, but I do think that the evidence for and against cables affecting signals, how audible the effects are and whethercable companies can justify their claims is pretty settled.