[zach915m]

I finally got around to experimenting with the ear pad options for my Verite. Another stupid video, but what else am I going to do?

Maybe I missed it in the video - what was your source?

There's a lot of different components that make headphones sound as they do, from earpads to chain to clamping pressure etc etc, we just try to provide information and resources so our products can meet the subjective preferences of as many users as possible. All headphones you can swap pads on and get different sounds, and for ZMFs we provide stock pads that suit our preferences with the headphones. But we provide other pads to give users the chance to meet their subjective taste.

Swapping pads is not unique to ZMF, (you can swap earpads on most headphones) it's just an added feature that we provide numerous earpads that we recommend with each headphone.

Concerning burn-in, it's something we recommend for the best sound of our headphones because the mechanical parts will settle in and sound best after some use, but it's not required to enjoy the headphones.

I'm most familiar with our headphones ofcourse, but the only real difference between us and other brands that make premium headphones, is that we openly talk about the subjective experiential gains from burn in and user experience that we've heard about from customers, where-as most other brands aren't as involved in the user experience side of things. I guess it comes from me running ZMF as a hobbyist as well! So take the whole burn in thing as much or as little as you desire for your own journey.

As an anecdote, when I get together with users who have owned a set for a long time and used them a lot, I am always amazed by how much better they sound than when I QC'd them to go out the door.

 

[reeltime]

Maybe I missed it in the video - what was your source?

Concerning burn-in, it's something we recommend for the best sound of our headphones because the mechanical parts will settle in and sound best after some use, but it's not required to enjoy the headphones. We definitely recommend it, and they will sound best with a lot of break in.

I'm most familiar with our headphones ofcourse, but the only real difference between us and other brands that make premium headphones, is that we openly talk about the subjective experiential gains from burn in and user experience that we've heard about from customers, where-as most other brands aren't as involved in the user experience side of things. I guess it comes from me running ZMF as a hobbyist as well! So take the whole burn in thing as much or as little as you desire for your own journey.

As an anecdote, when I get together with users who have owned a set for a long time and used them a lot, I am always amazed by how much better they sound than when I QC'd them to go out the door.

My stupid videos wind around a bit, I concede this! Sources were addressed in greater detail in the unboxing video, but I'm using the Woo Audio WA5LE and McIntosh C2600. The whole reason for buying the Verite was to give my Woo a worthy headphone to drive. I'm using 2 Chord DACS, the TT and the Hugo2. I haven't tried the Verite with my portable sources, but I have the cabling to run them balanced off of the N8, I just haven't tried it yet.

 

[KPzypher]

Maybe I missed it in the video - what was your source?

Concerning burn-in, it's something we recommend for the best sound of our headphones because the mechanical parts will settle in and sound best after some use, but it's not required to enjoy the headphones. We definitely recommend it, and they will sound best with a lot of break in.

I'm most familiar with our headphones ofcourse, but the only real difference between us and other brands that make premium headphones, is that we openly talk about the subjective experiential gains from burn in and user experience that we've heard about from customers, where-as most other brands aren't as involved in the user experience side of things. I guess it comes from me running ZMF as a hobbyist as well! So take the whole burn in thing as much or as little as you desire for your own journey.

As an anecdote, when I get together with users who have owned a set for a long time and used them a lot, I am always amazed by how much better they sound than when I QC'd them to go out the door.

Not sure what you're talking about here @zach915m . Mine sounded fantastic from hour 1 Not sure how they can get any better??

With that being said, I'm personally not a huge burn-in believer. Not that I totally discount the theory/logic behind burn-in, but simply because I cannot accurately recall what I hear five minutes ago, let alone 50-100-150 hours of burn-in. So I cannot say with certainty that the difference/improvement is meaningful.

 

[AngryTank]

Not sure what you're talking about here @zach915m . Mine sounded fantastic from hour 1 Not sure how they can get any better??

With that being said, I'm personally not a huge burn-in believer. Not that I totally discount the theory/logic behind burn-in, but simply because I cannot accurately recall what I hear five minutes ago, let alone 50-100-150 hours of burn-in. So I cannot say with certainty that the difference/improvement is meaningful.

I personally don’t like the idea of having to leave my headphones for 100+ hours playing pink noise or whatever it is people use to burn-in.

 

[reeltime]

Not sure what you're talking about here @zach915m . Mine sounded fantastic from hour 1 Not sure how they can get any better??

With that being said, I'm personally not a huge burn-in believer. Not that I totally discount the theory/logic behind burn-in, but simply because I cannot accurately recall what I hear five minutes ago, let alone 50-100-150 hours of burn-in. So I cannot say with certainty that the difference/improvement is meaningful.

I struggled with the pads initially. The thinner pads (BE2 and Verite) presented better focus and detail than the Universe style (for me-- everyone is different). In my unboxing I was listening to the Universe and they didn't impress me. The Verite pad helped a lot and the BE2 lambskin are really best option for me. They check the most boxes.

But as someone who wants it all in an endgame, it's a little crazy making when I know I could have a better soundstage if I used a different pad. But then I'm giving up the detail and resolution of the other pad. Emotionally (and I'm definitely an emotion-driven person when it comes to music and headphones) I want all of it at once. But you can't have the one "best" (say detail) without giving up the other "best" (like soundstage). This would be true of any headphone and I'm not singling out ZMF-- It's my reaction after trying all of these options.

These are great headphones and I need to keep stating that over and over. I'm listening to them now. I have many choices and I'm listening to the Verite-- so that should tell you something. I'm getting hours on them, too, which will bring out their best.

 

[Fegefeuer]

This is the follow up from the V590 thread, I will post it there too but with a different focus. This is not a Verité review. I simply did not find time to write a review for it but I will once I find a better review style.

ZMF Verité, FAW Noir Hybrid HPC
DACs : Violectric V590, Schiit Bifrost 2
Amps: Custom Pass Labs HPA-1 with superior PSU and overall components, Cavalli Liquid Crimson with Telefunken E88CC, V590's amp aka V5XX

overall clarity: HPA-1, then V590 and then Liquid Crimson. HPA-1 is the leanest and most linear of the bunch. This of course also helps in perceiving clarity. V590 has slightly warmer treble but actually not by much. V590 has the best bass presence of all three. I wish the HPA-1 had that kind of bass presence too. Would have helped its more linear and leaner nature. Note: Lean != anemic or thin. It's always in the context of the review. HPA-1's extension is not lacking at all.

overall linearity: HPA-1, then V590/Liquid Crimson. See above. HPA-1 is kinda ruler-flat if such a thing exists but not boring or dead sounding like THX amps. Not at all. This is how you design a linear amplifier. Absolutely masterful but it also means that pairing headphones is least forgiving. Ranking for ruthlessness: HPA-1 > V590 > Cavalli Liquid Crimson

bass presence, Körper: V590 > HPA-1 > Liquid Crimson. V590 is more palpatible in the bass and a bit more enhanced than both. It definitely shares some of the bass presence of the US4+. It's the most potent but not bassy. Hard to describe bass presence. Do not see it as volume or equalization but the feeling of bass and how it lingers, sustains, "strikes, hits, pounds" and how you believe "being there".

mid tonality: Liquid Crimson and HPA-1 are the most linear here actually. V590 gives a bit more body for male vocals and makes them more present. I would definitely say there's a very slight warmth in the lower mids but not by much. Very very slightly.

I could write more about these amps but that's reserved for the other thread since we need to talk about the Verité here.

Here's my ranking with the Verité Pads in terms of best pairings:

1) Cavalli Liquid Crimson
2) V590 ~ Pass Labs HPA-1

The Verité's transients are sharper and more aggressive with the Verité pads, there's also a slight emphasis in the upper treble that the Universe pads compensate if needed or wished for. Both pads have their fans after all. Overall I like the Verité pads best.

The Cavalli counters the Verité best. Despite its incisiveness it's still slightly softer than both other amps and takes a bit off the initial shot, striking the absolute best balance between liveliness and peakiness. Also breathes in a bit of romance with the 67's(?) Telefunken ECC88 singing and glowing in the middle of this phenomenal amp.

V590 "counters" with a slightly warmer treble than the HPA-1 and the best bass fundament of both. It inherits US4+'s sustain and presence but not to the same extent. Still something the Verité "rewards". In terms of treble it does not reach the Cavalli's balance though as it's less "rolled off" or less warm.

I placed both the V590 and the HPA-1 on the same stage in the end as despite the HPA-1 going more forward and ruthlessly through with absolute linearity the treble response of both is not that far off and both kinda land in the same "aggressiveness" territory after all. This custom HPA-1 uses a better PSU and better components than the original one, it's an absolute magnificient headphone amp but it's the most linear and leanest of all three. It should be placed on number 3 but since it's not decisive enough I made both share the spot.

Here's my ranking with the Universe Pads in terms of best pairings

1) V590
2) Cavalli Liquid Crimson ~ HPA-1

Positions change slightly here. The Universe Pads are now as expected warmer, softer for the Cavalli and it loses the balance that it previously held with the Verité pads.
The V590's again in the middle of both amps. In the middle of treble tonality, with sharper transients than the Cavalli, better bass presence than both.

HPA-1 again as expected cutting through everything. The universe pads can only do so much. Note, the HPA-1 is not a bright amp in the sense we would call a HD 800 a bright headphone. It is masterfully tuned, it simply is tuned to be more linear than both other amps and thus needs more careful matching.

The overall differences are not huge at all but interesting to know and potentially decisive.

Don't take it as a "use the Universe pads for the V590 OR DIE" suggestion or "Verité pads with the Cavalli or SELL IT TO ME NOW".

VERDICT: The Verité is a masterfully tuned headphone that alone with two pairs of earpads which are included should leave enough tuning possibilities for different kind of amps.

 

[4LoveOfSound]

Added a custom wood chassis Pendant to my camphor burl VC order. Now I just have to wait. Seems like the list is clearing faster than the spreadsheet shows, so I don't think I have more than a couple more weeks to go. The theory is the Pendant will replace my Liquid Platinum, but I have a hard time parting with any gear so we'll see how that goes.

 

[nwavesailor]

Added a custom wood chassis Pendant to my camphor burl VC order. Now I just have to wait. Seems like the list is clearing faster than the spreadsheet shows, so I don't think I have more than a couple more weeks to go. The theory is the Pendant will replace my Liquid Platinum, but I have a hard time parting with any gear so we'll see how that goes.

I also have a LP (paired with a VO) and while it is a great amp, I have not used it since I got the Pendant a few months ago. I've thought about selling the LP and if it continues to sit unused I suppose I should.

 

[jinxy245]

I personally don’t like the idea of having to leave my headphones for 100+ hours playing pink noise or whatever it is people use to burn-in.

There's really no need...many "burn in" headphones as they use them. Some listen & burn in whenever not listening. The fact is many people claim to hear a difference after a while. For me whether or not that's true, I don't feel I have to prove or disprove it. Just listen & enjoy is my modus operandi. FWIW, I heard a change up until around 30 or so hours, after which anything was too subtle to say if it was burn in or some other factor...as always YMMV.
Either way, enjoy them!

 

[carboncopy]

There's really no need...many "burn in" headphones as they use them. Some listen & burn in whenever not listening. The fact is many people claim to hear a difference after a while. For me whether or not that's true, I don't feel I have to prove or disprove it. Just listen & enjoy is my modus operandi. FWIW, I heard a change up until around 30 or so hours, after which anything was too subtle to say if it was burn in or some other factor...as always YMMV.
Either way, enjoy them!

I repectfully disagree. For me burn-in is real and a problem.

Actually the two most sensitive headphones I encountered are my Verité Open and my Campfire Cascade. Both had (for me) very underwhelming performance brand new. The Verité sounded (for me) disjointed and I missed the openess in it’s sound. I am now at about 50 hours and its rhytmically a different game. Not a subtle change at all.

And that leads to my problem. When buying new I have 14 days to decide. I contamplated sending back both the Cascade and the Verité and I am happy I did not. But it was a stressfull process.

In fact I had an Atticus before the Verité which I sent back. And I was having second thoughts upon sending it back, because it just started opening up. But I was not sure it would change enough. I didn’t had more time to find out.

 

[jinxy245]

I repectfully disagree. For me burn-in is real and a problem.

Actually the two most sensitive headphones I encountered are my Verité Open and my Campfire Cascade. Both had (for me) very underwhelming performance brand new. The Verité sounded (for me) disjointed and I missed the openess in it’s sound. I am now at about 50 hours and its rhytmically a different game. Not a subtle change at all.

And that leads to my problem. When buying new I have 14 days to decide. I contamplated sending back both the Cascade and the Verité and I am happy I did not. But it was a stressfull process.

In fact I had an Atticus before the Verité which I sent back. And I was having second thoughts upon sending it back, because it just started opening up. But I was not sure it would change enough. I didn’t had more time to find out.

Actually it's not so much of a disagreement as a modification in my eyes. I said I heard changes up until about 30hrs, then it became subtle...you're at 50. Again the YMMV is important IMO, some hear less than that if any. What is paramount about this is: I wouldn't discredit anyone else's experience (at the very least not without a lot of foreknowledge of that person's set up, past impressions etc.). I am not fool enough to think that my experiences are the same as everyone elses.

The problem can be real I agree, which is why it is often recommended by the manufacturer. If you don't like a headphone, doing some burn in is usually a good idea (again IMO) to see if there are any changes noted before the return period expires. With Zach, he's quite open about his recommendations but more importantly (to me) he is known for working with his customers to try to ensure they're happy. A Herculean task if there ever was one. ZMF can't always succeed in that task, but they always (to my knowledge) try.

I hope you enjoy the VO, it's one helluva headphone.

 

[Bhk1004]

I am pretty pro burn in for any speakers. I just run it in for 200 hours regardless of headphones, car speakers, or home speakers. Ive had some stuff change fairly drastically, some minimally, some not at all. I just do it for peace of mind for everything regardless now.

Perfectly ok if others dont believe in it and dont do it. It is their experience and they are welcome to enjoy their gear as they see fit.

 

[Little Bear]

I've always suspected the majority of burn-in benefit occurs in the first 10 or 20 hours. Continued improvement may occur after that, but not nearly as much. After the initial few hours, I just listen as normal and let the rest of the burn-in occur over time. I don't have the patience to wait 300 hours before I enjoy my new HP's. Especially after waiting 13 weeks to receive them.

I absolutely believe in burn in for dynamic drivers, but probably not for planars or electrostats. And not for solid state electronics.

 

[Pharmaboy]

I told myself I wouldn't comment about burn-in again, but I can't resist...

Before I got my Audio GD NOS-19 DAC, I read any number of people comment on this & the very similar AGD DAC-19 (which I purchased soon therafter) that it could take upwards of 500 hrs for the DAC to stop changing sonically & settle in. I thought they had to be mistaken. Well, they were right. Both the NOS 19 & DAC-19 took >500 hrs to stop changing sonically. And by "change," I mean rather startling difference in basic sound: edgy & thin one day; boomy & bassy the next.

That's an extreme case, admittedly. But I've heard changes in all manner of gear often enough to just routinely burn in any/everything for 150 hrs or so. As @Bhk1004 said, " Ive had some stuff change fairly drastically, some minimally, some not at all." (exactly) And because I don't know which item will change drastically vs minimally vs not at all, I burn them all in.

 

[TonyNewman]

I told myself I wouldn't comment about burn-in again, but I can't resist...

Before I got my Audio GD NOS-19 DAC, I read any number of people comment on this & the very similar AGD DAC-19 (which I purchased soon therafter) that it could take upwards of 500 hrs for the DAC to stop changing sonically & settle in. I thought they had to be mistaken. Well, they were right. Both the NOS 19 & DAC-19 took >500 hrs to stop changing sonically. And by "change," I mean rather startling difference in basic sound: edgy & thin one day; boomy & bassy the next.

That's an extreme case, admittedly. But I've heard changes in all manner of gear often enough to just routinely burn in any/everything for 150 hrs or so. As @Bhk1004 said, " Ive had some stuff change fairly drastically, some minimally, some not at all." (exactly) And because I don't know which item will change drastically vs minimally vs not at all, I burn them all in.

R2R NOS dacs seem to be a special case. In my experience they take much longer to stabilize than DS dacs. They also benefit from being left powered up - I am guessing due to thermal stability issues around the resistors (I am not an electrical engineer). 500 hours does not surprise me at all. Mine took much longer than any DS dac I have owned to stabilize and definitely benefits from being left powered up permanently (Metrum Pavane).