[matze76287]

Thanks @Deleeh . I'm just not sure what influence the Cayin C9 has. Despite the 300 ohms of the VC, it still had plenty of reserve.

Has anyone heard the Atrium on the Cayin C9?

 

[hanumanbob]

I used it on Xduoo t-22, JDS Element and iFi Grypon portable and they were all great.

 

[zach915m]

You might want to look into the upcoming BOKEH. It's only 80ohms and has higher sensitivity, so it should pair better with a portable chain. You should start seeing some impressions over the next few weeks as review units start to go out.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/zmf-bokeh-closed-back-semi-portable.969961/

The Atrium Closed is a fantastic headphone. I ran it out of a few portable setups and it's still good, but obviously not at it's best.

Thanks @Deleeh . I'm just not sure what influence the Cayin C9 has. Despite the 300 ohms of the VC, it still had plenty of reserve.

Has anyone heard the Atrium on the Cayin C9?

1. Yes the Bokeh may be best for a portable easier to drive type headphone. It's coming December 8th and I think for that kind of general purpose it's of great use. The 300 ohm "round" models are definitely more desktop type use.




2. We are actually going to start carrying the c9 as I've been really impressed with it as a portable amp with tons of power and we are a cayin dealer.

That being said it is a low impedance amp and will damp the VC a little bit, the main thing about VC is that is already laid back in the upper mids, so a high damping factor may make it too dull and overdamped regardless of the tonality of an Amp.

The Atrium despite being 300 ohms is very mid forward in that area, so it tends to sound less damped because of the FR with low impedance amps.


C9 is great though.

 

[goldwerger]

I sold my VC Ltd Olive a few months ago because it was sometimes too sharp in the mid-high range on my chain (Fiio M17 & Cayin C9) and simply not engaging enough. It would certainly be different on a tube amplifier. However, it is important to me that the whole chain is portable within the house. I currently only listen with IEMs (Noble KK, EE Odin, InEar PMX), but would like to buy an over-ear again. Compared to the VC, I would like to have a bit more warmth and emotionality and the feeling of sitting in the middle of the stage. Could the Atrium be something?

I had the VC Olive and, yes, the AC will work better with the C9 than the VC.

And you will definitely feel the “sitting in middle of stage more” as upper mids are more forward on the AC.

You might want to look into the upcoming BOKEH. It's only 80ohms and has higher sensitivity, so it should pair better with a portable chain.

Excellent suggestion. Last I tried the Bokeh at SoCal the tuning was super nice and it’s really built for your use case.

We are actually going to start carrying the c9 as I've been really impressed with it as a portable amp with tons of power and we are a cayin dealer

Loved that amp in your booth at SoCal, impressive little thing in both quantity and quality. Highly recommend

The Atrium despite being 300 ohms is very mid forward in that area, so it tends to sound less damped because of the FR with low impedance amps.

Had same experience when using the Atriums (both) on various SS amps. .

 

[matze76287]

Wow, thank you all for the tips. @zach915m , nice to hear that you also like the C9. Yes, it's one of the few components that I haven't even thought about selling. I think it's simply brilliant because of its versatility, power and sound quality for both IEMs and large headphones.

 

[matze76287]

Are there any initial reviews of the Bokeh yet? Or comparisons with the Atrium Closed?

 

[LXMc]

I had the VC Olive and, yes, the AC will work better with the C9 than the VC.

And you will definitely feel the “sitting in middle of stage more” as upper mids are more forward on the AC.

Excellent suggestion. Last I tried the Bokeh at SoCal the tuning was super nice and it’s really built for your use case.

Loved that amp in your booth at SoCal, impressive little thing in both quantity and quality. Highly recommend

Had same experience when using the Atriums (both) on various SS amps. .

I currently have a VC that I think is very good, no doubt, but I've never 100% gotten on with it. I expect part of that is just using it on SS amps but I'm not ready to chase the amp dragon just for the VC. Between the Caldera and Auteur it's been feeling like a bit of a third wheel so I've decided to sell it. The anticipation is that I'll replace it down the road with the Atrium Closed which sounds like a better fit (both with these recent recommendations as well as numerous previous impressions and reviews) but I'm becoming more and more interested to see how the Bokeh stacks up and fits in with my remaining ZMFs.

 

[goldwerger]

I currently have a VC that I think is very good, no doubt, but I've never 100% gotten on with it. I expect part of that is just using it on SS amps but I'm not ready to chase the amp dragon just for the VC. Between the Caldera and Auteur it's been feeling like a bit of a third wheel so I've decided to sell it. The anticipation is that I'll replace it down the road with the Atrium Closed which sounds like a better fit (both with these recent recommendations as well as numerous previous impressions and reviews) but I'm becoming more and more interested to see how the Bokeh stacks up and fits in with my remaining ZMFs.

I have loved (really loved) my VC. They were my favorite headphones for a couple of years. They are quite different than the AC in their character (my very original impressions of the AC, which I published here, included my comparison at the time between the AC and VC). I didn't have a use case for keeping both, so the AC stayed, but I agree - the VC improves with a higher impedance amp output, like an OTL or a TC amp with a high imp delection - so for those that would prefer its presentation, amp matching is recommended and rewarding to pursue).

I don't have the Bokeh on hand for a direct comparison, but my brief prior show impressions were that the AC is technically superior (clearly expected at ~2.5x the price), but also is different in character: the Bokeh doesn't have the AC outworldly sub-bass nor the same quality of decay (cup size may be a factor but I really don't know much about how their internal damping design varies). The Bokeh may be perhpas more neutral and - they definitely sounded great! In real life, we don't use headphones in comparison, but put one on and enjoy the music. And that one feels like a super enjoyable listen, and incredibly good value (not to mention easy to drive and carry about as a bonus).

 

[dfiled]

I sold my VC Ltd Olive a few months ago because it was sometimes too sharp in the mid-high range on my chain (Fiio M17 & Cayin C9) and simply not engaging enough. It would certainly be different on a tube amplifier. However, it is important to me that the whole chain is portable within the house. I currently only listen with IEMs (Noble KK, EE Odin, InEar PMX), but would like to buy an over-ear again. Compared to the VC, I would like to have a bit more warmth and emotionality and the feeling of sitting in the middle of the stage. Could the Atrium be something?

Out of my Fiio M11 Pro the AC does not sound nearly as good as out of a desktop amp. So I wouldn’t recommend the AC for listening straight from a DAP, at least not the m11.

By contrast, my VCs sound decent out of the m11. But I wouldn’t recommend either the VC or the AC if you’re not using a desktop amp.

 

[Leto Dal]

Out of my Fiio M11 Pro the AC sounds like a $300 pair of headphones. Out of a desktop amp they sound amazing . So I wouldn’t recommend the AC for listening straight from a DAP.

By contrast, my VCs sound decent out of the m11. But I wouldn’t recommend either the VC or the AC if you’re not using a desktop amp.

Comes down to the DAP is my my guess. Fiio M11 Pro isnt exactly totl dap to begin with.

 

[goldwerger]

Out of my Fiio M11 Pro the AC sounds like a $300 pair of headphones. Out of a desktop amp they sound amazing . So I wouldn’t recommend the AC for listening straight from a DAP.

By contrast, my VCs sound decent out of the m11. But I wouldn’t recommend either the VC or the AC if you’re not using a desktop amp.

I wouldn't use any DAP to drive these headphones (though some are reasonably ok if not great) - but he's using the Cayin C9 paired to his DAP, and that would work great with both as a mobile amp power wise - though better with the AC in terms of damping

 

[raindownthunda]

That being said it is a low impedance amp and will damp the VC a little bit, the main thing about VC is that is already laid back in the upper mids, so a high damping factor may make it too dull and overdamped regardless of the tonality of an Amp.

Hey Zach, apologies if this has been answered before, but what would you consider the “ideal” output impedance damping factor range to be for the AC? Would it be different range than the VC For example?

In my experience, I feel like my VC sounds a best on my OTL between ~8-20x damping (35-15 ohm), whereas I enjoy my AC most at lower ranges ie ~4-8x damping (60-40 ohm). With my current SS amp the VC sounds fantastic even with a much higher ~60x damping (4.9 ohm). I find the AC does not synergize nearly as well with that amp.

My hypothesis is that the VC sounds best with slightly higher damping factors (to a point) whereas the AC works best with slightly lower damping factors. Given I only have a few amps to compare I have no idea if that holds up.

Curious if you’re thought about providing a “recommend output damping range“ for each model to help amp purchase decisions, or if there are too many other contributing factors with amp<->headphone synergy to make any kind of statement like that.

 

[dfiled]

That being said it is a low impedance amp and will damp the VC a little bit, the main thing about VC is that is already laid back in the upper mids, so a high damping factor may make it too dull and overdamped regardless of the tonality of an Amp.

The Atrium despite being 300 ohms is very mid forward in that area, so it tends to sound less damped because of the FR with low impedance amps.

@zach915m (or anyone else): Would you mind explaining a bit (of you haven’t already elsewhere) why a low impedance amp has a greater damping factor and why that would affect the lower mids in particular? Unless I’m misunderstanding what you said.

 

[zach915m]

@zach915m (or anyone else): Would you mind explaining a bit (of you haven’t already elsewhere) why a low impedance amp has a greater damping factor and why that would affect the lower mids in particular? Unless I’m misunderstanding what you said.

A good explanation is at NWAVguys blog here: https://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html?m=1

A big part of it is that amps optimized for low impedance aren't really outputting much power for a high impedance load. For example if the headphone is 300 ohms and takes 250 mW to max out and more for headroom, the low impedance amp is going to have to work harder to get there and may output something like 3 watts at 32 ohms and 155 mW at 300 ohms, and even if it does have more power at 300 ohms it's going to be damping the driver more, or basically having so much control of the driver that some of those resonances that we as humans find pleasant won't exist. A good example of this is the Rupert Neve amp, it has an output impedance of like 001 or something.

Which BTW doesn't mean some people may not like it, we discount how much our personal preferences play into what sounds good to us. That's why my recommendations always vary based on what I hear from each owner/listener, and also why I like high impedance headphones. There's more ability to cater them to your taste based on system changes.

Anyways I'm not an Amp designer and I'm sure someone smarter than me on that front can explain it better as well with a water hose analogy or something.

 

[zach915m]

, but what would you consider the “ideal” output impedance damping factor range to be for the AC?

My hypothesis is that the VC sounds best with slightly higher damping factors (to a point) whereas the AC works best with slightly lower damping factors. Given I only have a few amps to compare I have no idea if that holds up.

I think it's going to vary person to person based on taste, but I think the zmf headphone amp thread is a good place to get general consensus ideas etc.

Personally I usually like amps for our 300 ohm headphones with outputs between 5 and 100 ohms, but there so much that goes into amp design that it varies from all that stuff. I think someone like @L0rdGwyn could probably explain it better than I can.