[RnB180]

also regarding the remark about my "RnB audio website".

its a photobucket page not some e commerce site.

I do not own a domain name. I do not have a paypal business account, I do not make enough to justify a business account. and since I switched to member of the trade status

ive sold an average of "1" whopping mini cable a week outside of head fi- the number of cables Ive sold inside of headfi would be "0"). Im sorry, but I need it to pay for my college tuition, food and books with the large profit I am making with the 1 mini cable per week Im selling..oh and a few not even selling

I do hope my run of bad luck changes eventually though.

thanks!

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

I wonder if elaborations in the forum rules would help? If we can get past the past and make the future more clear that seems positive to me.

posted while i was responding so i will answer :

the rules are clear and I know because I wrote them myself.The thing with rules is they need to be read and once read obeyed or that is called breaking the rules and that is the reason we have a moderated forum and moderators.to catch the rule breakers and make them behave.

They are at the very top of the DIY forum and very easy to find but easily overlooked for those having no interset in following the rules anyway.

and we have some very imaginative rule breakers here at head-fi.They shoot for the gaps and the gray areas and fully know what they do.


Quote:

I did indeed charge for labor on some of my sales here. theres no need to post PMs, anyone here can look at my feedback thread in the sales forum and read exactly how many cables Ive sold to head fiers. IMO for time Ive been here on this forum not many. and once again the money I made from it went to making more DIY cables.

does not matter.

Selling is selling and you told me you were not so I have nothing to say.you did not parse your words or say you were selling off extras but assured me you were NOT selling cables

you were,i have no more to say

and with that i am out you guys have fun

 

[RnB180]

Quote:

Selling is selling and you told me you were not so I have nothing to say.you did not parse your words or say you were selling off extras but assured me you were NOT selling cables

Rick, I posted those pics to show off my diy work and NOT for advertisement, which is why i said NOT for sale on the pics, because I didnt want members contacting me to buy those cables due to those pics. as in, I did NOT want to make sales on head fi by posting pictures in the gallery.

two of them sold totally outside of head fi, in no way related with head fi,
and one was placed in the for sales forum weeks after since I couldnt get rid of it, so I placed it in the for sales forum and asked if there were any takers. in this case if was indeed an extra cable I did not want. and someone offered to buy it from me.

this was however done before any status change.

 

[drewd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickr42 he entire thing started out as a way to avoid paying $40 and was said to be "highway robbery" openly as the very first post then went on to design a board that is now $20 and links to guess who ? MR "I don't want to pay" is who.Am I the only one that sees a problem with htis and aslo a pattern ? Probably and another reason to wash my hands of the DIY forum.They have been harder to clean lately anyway.too much of this crap is sticking.

Whoa, there, Rick. I did the board layout. The links are to me, either at Photobucket or at my web site, giving full credit where it's due. Get off of the Millett Hybrid as an example of the wrong way to do DIY - the entire thread is a great example of collaboration by a number of people to come up with a board layout that satisfies a number of needs. And get off of Nate's case, too. Yeah, he wanted to come up with a board that cost less and he made a number of very valid suggestions that added to the "build-ability" of the board. There's more to DIY audio than electrical theory - the Millett thread is a good example of people with differing approaches to a similar problem finding common ground in a single implementation.

The fact that it isn't a one-off design seems to be getting under your skin - if that's the case, then we might as well stop talking about Chu Moy's amp design, Pimetas, PPAs, M^3s and any other collaborative design. And that would be too bad because quite a few people have learned quite a bit by building amplifiers based on comercially available PCBs. Theory is great and as an electrical engineer, it's indispensible for me, but I know and work with scads of people who rely on practical experience and are very fine engineers.

If you're concerned about your ideas and designs being commercially used without your permission, then do what Kevin Gilmore does - require permission. And if you see somebody making money off of your work, then go after them!

But doggone it, ease up a little!

-Drew

 

[rickcr42]

The "group buy" thread has a link to a page for the baord and parts list.Who it belongs to i really don't care becasue the VERY FIRST LINE of the board thread and not the group buy thread staes the $40 board is highway robbery and then it progresses into a group but and its won thread.


All there man.right where posted

 

[rickcr42]

some visual aids :

Very first comment by the thread starter :

Quote:

Just wondering if anyone knows of a source for the Millet Hybrid PCB. I'm thinking of building one and the $40 that DIYCable.com wants seems like highway robbery. Is there something I'm missing here with the design of this board? On the surface it doesn't seem any more complex than say a PPA or MMM so why the high board cost? DIY also seems to gouge you on shipping as well. I find it ironic that the board cost listed in the BOM is $20... Thanks for any help.

17 pages leads to this-three pages and counting :

Quote:

This is a group buy for the revised Millett-Hybrid PCB's. For information or to ask additional questions about the revision process please use this thread. For images of the final board please see this post . A parts list and additional information can be found at Shellbrook Labs . Please note that as of 5/6 the parts list has not been finalized, I'll update this thread when it has been 100% confirmed. If you would like to participate in this group buy please post a reply that indicates the number of boards you wish to purchase and also send me a Private Message with the title "Millett-Hybrid PCB Group-Buy". Please include the following in the body of the message: 1. The number of boards you wish to purchase 2. Your full name and mailing address 3. Paypal email address Paypal payments only please! [edit1]US and European orders will be accepted by me, distribution for the folks across the pond will be handled by another Head-Fi member. These regions will still be on a paypal only basis. [edit2]Asian and orders from down under are now being accepted and will be distributed by skyskraper. You folks will have slightly different payment protocols which will be determined based on the # of orders for your region. Preliminary pricing estimates indicate that the boards should not cost more that $15. Two rounds of paypal payments will be requested. The first will cover the boards and initial shipping with the second covering final packaging and shipping costs. I'd estimate that the total cost per board will be under $20 with everything included, however, that's just an estimate. In all likelyhood it will be less. The ordering phase of this group buy will run until noon (EST) Friday, May 20th. Nate

this is becoming the norm around here and just because most see no problem does not make it either right or a thing I will no longer stay silent on.This is not DIY but business disguised as DIY.

A "loophole" in the rules to avoid paying for a legitimate mall-fi advertisement.even then i am not comfortable with just taking a design of someone else then later getting permission for something already done.

 

[gsferrari]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 The "group buy" thread has a link to a page for the baord and parts list.Who it belongs to i really don't care becasue the VERY FIRST LINE of the board thread and not the group buy thread staes the $40 board is highway robbery and then it progresses into a group but and its won thread. All there man.right where posted

The difference is that the design was not stolen. The design was free anyway...the gerber files are available for the PCB...anybody can make their own PCB. These guys modified it to suit there needs...nothing wrong in that. Also - this wasn't a commercial activity. They organized a group buy to get people interested in the design...made the PCBs and distributed the PCBs at cost. From what I can see there were no margins involved in the group buy process...and everyone got a good deal.

Whether you like it or not - if someone is selling a $100.00 PCB that can be made for $5.00 for a group of 20. It will be made for $5.00 for a group of 20 and there is nothing you or I can do to stop it.

I am academically interested in what Chu has to say about the use of his name. This is nothing new...everyone has been using it and he has not spoken about it or complained. Why dont you let him speak up and say "hey! stop! this is not cool..."

Discussing ethics is never going to work. People will question the ethics of charging $100.00 for a $5.00 PCB of a design that is available for free.

I am undecided on which side I fall because both sides have points in their favour. I think - if you want to stop people using the CMOY name then you have to register it as a trademark. There are many people named Chu in this world and the design itself is straight out of a datasheet for an op-amp. No case if you ask me...dont see why mods are getting hot and bothered about it.

 

[RnB180]

Anyway,

Rick, I hope I answered all your unsolved questions, and we both can find a common plain. If I pissed you off Im truly sorry. BTW, ive been a good head fier lately

after you cool off
can we be buds

Id appreciate you not dragging me through the mud.

the thread is becoming a warzone from the looks of it.

good day sir, I need to study for my nutrition exam.

 

[drewd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 The "group buy" thread has a link to a page for the baord and parts list.Who it belongs to i really don't care becasue the VERY FIRST LINE of the board thread and not the group buy thread staes the $40 board is highway robbery and then it progresses into a group but and its won thread. All there man.right where posted

Yep, it's to my website. I was being a nice guy and provided that web space for some centralized info on the board.

I'm not sure what to make of the rest of your message - quite frankly, I can't understand what you're saying. But let me try to explain what's going on here.

Nate was looking for a less expensive Millett Hybrid PCB. He felt that $40.00 "seems like highway robbery". The thread then moved onto a discussion on how the board could be redesigned to make it more satisfying to a fairly large group of people.

It happened with Pete's blessing, the same blessing that DIYAudio and Headroom got.

So is your problem that Nate said that he felt that $40.00 was highway robbery? Hey, that's his opinion. You're tossing your opinions around left and right - are you saying that Nate can't? Are you suggesting that somehow it's against the rules for a group of people to get together and design what they feel is a better implementation of a circuit? That, even with the original designer's permission, it's against the rules? Pete and I had a more detailed email exchange that is beyond the scope of this forum, but suffice to say that he has raised no objections to any of the content in that thread.

Rick, if you're going to make waves, then you'd better be able to deal with them coming back at you. Plenty of people here have opinions and not all of them are willing to knuckle under to yours.

-Drew

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

Nate was looking for a less expensive Millett Hybrid PCB. He felt that $40.00 "seems like highway robbery". The thread then moved onto a discussion on how the board could be redesigned to make it more satisfying to a fairly large group of people.

it is the fk it attitude of the entire DIY forum gang that says "i don't like the price of the legit,lets have a group buy" and it is rampant with this being only the most recent case and in combination with other DIY related matters enough that I want to wash my hands of this mess.

i will suggest to higher ups that this area is due for a total revamping with designated a area strictly for group buys that have to be approved FIRST before any end arounds and any online group build of anothers design must be proven to have the consent in no uncertain terms before any thread is allowed to progress or it gets deleted as policy.

Not my call but my recommendation before things get worse than they are now where it is open season on sales for anything.

i will also suggest that intentionally going undeground to sell and if reported and proven true be grounds for a lifetime ban.It is time for head-fi to take back control

 

[drewd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickr42 this is becoming the norm around here and just because most see no problem does not make it either right or a thing I will no longer stay silent on.This is not DIY but business disguised as DIY. A "loophole" in the rules to avoid paying for a legitimate mall-fi advertisement.even then i am not comfortable with just taking a design of someone else then later getting permission for something already done.

Rick, if it's business, then it's pretty darned bad business, given that nobody is making money and the costs of the board production are equally borne by everybody involved. In fact, Nate comes out on the short end of the deal since he's spent a chunk of cash on protos, money that he's not going to get back.

The fact is that group buys are specifically addressed by the rules and this one is not breaking the rules.

Furthermore, we didn't take Pete's design and then later get permission to do the work - I emailed him right off the bat to ask permission to alter his board or, if he had objections to that, to us using his original gerbers in a group buy. Everything was above board and by the book.

Rick, obviously you have your own ideas about what constitutes DIY. I'm sorry that you can't tolerate others' views. There is no single definition of DIY, but there are a lot of opinions. Without a de facto definition of DIY, this debate will never be resolved, but it probably should come to an end.

Incidentally, I don't want to leave you with the feeling that I'm against your opinion of what DIY is or isn't. It's one view of DIY amongst many. My problem is that it appears that you're attempting to impose your opinion on others and that's not right.

-Drew

 

[RnB180]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 i will also suggest that intentionally going undeground to sell and if reported and proven true be grounds for a lifetime ban.It is time for head-fi to take back control

then youd probably be banning a very very large number of legitemate DIYers.

you probably have very few left. I mean tell me any diyer that hasnt sold something they made? A DIYer that sells to absorb costs is not uncommon man.

with your logic, you might as well state the entire For sale feedback forum is evidence to bann 99% of the members listed there.

I think the administration is fine the way its being handled.

your life time ban statement borders on nazi-esque mentality.

youre blaming the downfall on a legitament group of people and your answer is to permanently remove them forever. You wouldnt be reclaming head fi, youd be eliminating the majority of members you disagree with.

 

[drewd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickr42 it is the fk it attitude of the entire DIY forum gang that says "i don't like the price of the legit,lets have a group buy" and it is rampant with this being only the most recent case and in combination with other DIY related matters enough that I want to wash my hands of this mess.

Maybe so, but you picked the wrong case to hack on. There is no "legit" vendor of Millett PCBs - Pete Millett has blessed anybody who wants to make it (for profit or not).

I'm not aware of any other buys in the DIY forum that have been done in the spirit of "let's build a 'legit' design cheaper", but I confess that I don't read every thread.

Quote:

i will suggest to higher ups that this area is due for a total revamping with designated a area strictly for group buys that have to be approved FIRST before any end arounds and any online group build of anothers design must be proven to have the consent in no uncertain terms before any thread is allowed to progress or it gets deleted as policy.

No problem with that on my end! I'm with you 100%.

-Drew

 

[gsferrari]

[size=medium]Group Buys:
[/size]

A group buy is a collective economic strategy that allows volume sales direct from manufacturer or through reseller to a group of participating buyers. This results in reduced shipping and handling costs and less paperwork. Also the manufacturer gets to unload a LOT of inventory in one shot. An attractive proposition for both buyers and sellers.

When group buys are organized for "components" like PCBs, Resistors, Capacitors, Trannies, Chassis, Wire etc. then the economics are a little less clear. When 50 people get together and build a PPA/M-Cubed in a group then they all stand to gain. Parts costs are less because of bulk purchasing. However this tends to drop the sales for manufacturers like Headroom, Meier, Emmeline etc. who make amps that compete with the PPA and M-Cubed. Naturally Tyll isnt happy about the Shure group-buys because it cuts into his margins...perfectly understandable.

However - the participants are not doing anything illegal on their own. It is viewed as illegal as per the rules of HeadFi. HeadFi wants to take care of its sponsors for selfish reasons and the participants in the group buys want to take care of their own selfish reasons...namely - spending less for getting more.

I am sure that if HeadFi stops group buy activities then it will continue elsewhere...someone will start a forums called amp-fi or diy-fi or some rubbish like that and start group buys on a massive scale. HeadFi will lose that section of its traffic (who will no doubt come here to view headphone related information).

The whole thing is VERY tricky and needs to be handled with care. Which is why I feel comfortable because we all know who is at the helm of HeadFi and I am sure he has handled bigger problems than this before without ruffling his feathers.

Relax and let the right people handle this in the right way.

 

[mono]

Re: Millet Hybrid

I'm a bit confused as Sbelyo wrote: Quote:

Pete also posts the eagle brd file and the gerber drill file so you can have them made yourself.

I'm then left wondering what makes it any different to get in on the group buy rather than buying from DIYCable? I admit I'm not learned in all the details surrounding the issue but unless DIYCable is paying for this design, why should they be considered exclusive distributors of it? I don't see any restriction's on Pete's site either.

I do feel that DIYers pretty much have to learn by copying. Otherwise, what will they every produce of value later on? If everyone had to "start from scratch" the best result we could hope for is multiple implementations of very basic circuits. Copying and bettering our forefather's work is what humans do.

I realize this has been addressed already but since the issues have come to surface again it seems like the topic needs more exploration- except not the "selling for profit" part of it, that seems pretty straightforward. So according to the forums rules the issues are about limitations of group buys to save members money for personal use, which to me might mean in fairness that at most a group buy might restrict the # of items someone could purchase.

Except, this particular "clone" board as addressed in the rules seems to me to be a different matter than the rules were meant to address, as Pete himself has clearly put the design out there without restrictions on it's use or did I overlook this? So I for one feel the rules section on "cloning" could use some elaboration, since the 'site selling this item doesn't appear to have ANY particular claim to it?