[PurpleAngel]

"From what I have heard around here, that is not true,
though it's something I'd like to believe. If anyone can confirm this,
then I will have restored my faith in believing in external DACs like the FiiO E10 is much better than something like the Xonar DGX or even the Essence STX."
 
Sycho.
When external DACs are talked about as better then sound card DACs, I think they are talking about $150-$300 external DACs, not $65 DACs (E10).

 

[stv014]

Quote:

From what I have heard around here, that is not true, though it's something I'd like to believe. If anyone can confirm this, then I will have restored my faith in believing in external DACs like the FiiO E10 is much better than something like the Xonar DGX or even the Essence STX.

 
It is not quite true. Here are some links to measurements of the FiiO E10, Xonar D1, and Xonar Essence STX. While they are not directly comparable, as the tests are not exactly the same, and were done with different equipment, the differences are large enough to make it clear that objectively the E10 is the worst of the three as a DAC:
- Xonar Essemce STX
- Xonar D1
- FiiO E10 - link not allowed here, but search for '"FiiO E10 DAC" measurements', and check the blogspot.com link
However, it should be noted that headphone amplification is often not very good on sound cards, and an external amplifier may be necessary. There is no real technical reason for this, the manufacturers simply do not care much about headphone support, and sound card reviews tend to overlook it as well. Many external DAC+amplifier devices do not have particularly good headphone outputs either, though, but at least the FiiOs tend to be decent in this respect, especially considering their price. The Essence STX drives high impedance headphones well, but for some low impedance ones the amplifier on the E10 might in fact be better.
From a technical point of view a DAC can be good regardless of whether it is internal or external, but here is a short list of typical differences in practice:
Advantages of internal sound cards:
- often lower price for the same or even better DAC specs
- more features (multichannel output, recording (ADC), surround sound, etc.)
- fewer boxes and cables on the desk
- more widely available than "boutique" audiophile products by small companies
Advantages of external DAC(+amplifier)s:
- the built-in headphone amplifier (if any) is often better
- interference and ground loop problems are less likely or can be fixed better (with USB isolators or optical S/PDIF)
- transportability
- no proprietary drivers are needed on Windows (this is not always the case)
- no PCI or PCIe slot is needed
Also, the highest end DACs are external, but an expensive DAC is in fact most likely overkill, and it is possible to achieve transparent DAC performance (where humans can no longer tell apart the DAC from a near-perfect "reference" one under controlled conditions) at a surprisingly low cost. It is better to spend the money on headphones or loudspeakers, those make much more difference.
 
Actually, even onboard audio (at least the DAC part) is not always quite as bad as commonly believed. If it uses a reasonably good codec chip, and is well implemented (there is no audible interference or other problem - unfortunately, often there is), then it can already be not so easy to tell apart from a technically higher quality sound card or DAC.

 

[Sycho]

Thanks stv014 for the clear up. I was deciding whether to get an E10 or get a Xonar sound card for a while now. I hear people constantly recommending me sound cards over something other external DACs, which makes me wonder why people would bother to get an E10 or uDAC over a sound card (probably for portability).

I personally find on-board audio with my so-explained modern motherboard fine, it sounds much better the crappy Galaxy S2 and my iPod touch, but I'm just wondering how much of a difference is it between an external DAC and an internal sound card. I'm also getting a Clip Zip shortly to replace my Galaxy S2 as my mobile music player; is the Clip Zip slightly better in terms of sound compared to your average on-board audio, or it should be the same?

For clarifications however, would you guys say a Xonar DG + an amp would perform about the same or better the FiiO E10 or E17 in terms of sound quality?

 

[proton007]

Quote:

 
The manufacturers simply do not care much about headphone support, and sound card reviews tend to overlook it as well.
 

 
This.
Most soundcards will have a decent enough DAC, just that headphones are not their priority.
 
And I also agree, a good codec chip is close enough to an external DAC.

 

[MrMateoHead]

Quote:

Can you please tell me a mb with a great onboard sound card?
 
From what I know best onboard sound card that you can get with a mb is creative, I doubt Sycho has one, even so a dedicated dac+amp made for music will sound better than any on board sc IMO.
If you are satisfied with your onboard sound card that is great.

If you think that Creative is the vendor with good sound - no wonder you hate computer audio. Creative sucks, IMHO.
 
Most on-board audio can use stuff from Realtek, Cirrus Logic, or VIA. All those companies make some kick ass hardware that I tend to like better than creative.
 
Not only that, but depending on the setup, the signal to noise and output impedance, and other factors can kick the crap out of a lot of portable USB/DAC combos.

 

[MrMateoHead]

Don't waste your money before you try using ASIO or WASAPI in windows. Configuring your computer for best quality reproduction is the first worthwhile thing to try.
 
90% of the s*** sound in computer audio involves bypassing audio drivers / DSP effects. Their are different ways to configure for the best sound, none of which, I've found, make media center any much better.
 
The best and easiest (but not really pretty) audio player for "audiophiles" or budding can addicts is Foobar 2000. Try it with the WASAPI plugin (which won't let you, for example, hear a youtube video in a browser at the same time). If it sounds good and gets loud, an Amp or DAC won't necessarily help a lot. Fiio could even be a step backwards since it doesn't necessarily offer much more power, it will have high output impedance (less ideal for headphones rated below 80 Ohms), and it DAC performance is not likely better.

 

[proton007]

Quote:

 
Most on-board audio can use stuff from Realtek, Cirrus Logic, or VIA. All those companies make some kick ass hardware that I tend to like better than creative.
 
Not only that, but depending on the setup, the signal to noise and output impedance, and other factors can kick the crap out of a lot of portable USB/DAC combos.

 
Creative makes some good hardware, I just think on-board audio has caught up with time, and dedicated audio hasn't moved forward at that pace.
 
Got a VIA Vinyl VT2021 on my desktop.  Its not as good as the ODAC, but yeah, its decent enough for normal use.
 
The only problem, again, is that the headphone out from on board audio is suited for a narrow range of impedance. Anything beyond that range, and it'll struggle with power.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Quote:

Thanks stv014 for the clear up. I was deciding whether to get an E10 or get a Xonar sound card for a while now. I hear people constantly recommending me sound cards over something other external DACs, which makes me wonder why people would bother to get an E10 or uDAC over a sound card (probably for portability).
I personally find on-board audio with my so-explained modern motherboard fine, it sounds much better the crappy Galaxy S2 and my iPod touch, but I'm just wondering how much of a difference is it between an external DAC and an internal sound card. I'm also getting a Clip Zip shortly to replace my Galaxy S2 as my mobile music player; is the Clip Zip slightly better in terms of sound compared to your average on-board audio, or it should be the same?
For clarifications however, would you guys say a Xonar DG + an amp would perform about the same or better the FiiO E10 or E17 in terms of sound quality?

To me, the low impedance (like 1-Ohm) in the headphone output on the portable amplifiers make them better for driving low Ohm headphones.
Sound card can have an high output impedance of anywhere from 10-Ohms to 100-Ohms
I believe on-board audio also has a high impedance coming out of their headphone jack, but can't find any data on that.
I'm guessing Clip Zip's output impedance is very low, but I need to dig around to find out the exact number.
My Clip Zip drives my 32-Ohm and 62-Ohm headphones just fine, at first I was using a Fiio E6, but it did not really seem to me to make a difference.
I just plug the headphones now straight into the Clip Zip.
The Fiio E11 is a slightly more powerful amplifier then the E10 or E17.
So to me a Xonar DG and E11 makes a good combo, as you can use the E11 as your portable amp. too.
I believe the E10 and E17 comes with a better DAC (WM8740) then the Xonar DG (CS4245)

 

[MrMateoHead]

Quote:

 
Creative makes some good hardware, I just think on-board audio has caught up with time, and dedicated audio hasn't moved forward at that pace.
 
Got a VIA Vinyl VT2021 on my desktop.  Its not as good as the ODAC, but yeah, its decent enough for normal use.
 
The only problem, again, is that the headphone out from on board audio is suited for a narrow range of impedance. Anything beyond that range, and it'll struggle with power.

Like you point out, the downside is possibly the ability to drive anything but low-impedance headphones. Many On-Board solutions do offer dedicated headphone amps however, which in my case do provide an output impedance of about 1 Ohm (based on specs).
 
In practice, some cards offer separate amplification (like Claro cards). They can be optimized for different impedance loads, but this means switching jumpers around, so the ultimate flexibility might be a little inconvenient if you have different headphones @ different impedances.
 
How to you think the VIA chipset compares to the ODAC? More in terms of performance than subjective impressions, though if it makes a strong subjective difference please point it out. I am not a "sound card" advocate, but I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly - they can offer a very cost-effective solution to headphone lovers at a price more inviting than I have been able to find with dedicated components.

 

[proton007]

Quote:

How to you think the VIA chipset compares to the ODAC? More in terms of performance than subjective impressions, though if it makes a strong subjective difference please point it out. I am not a "sound card" advocate, but I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly - they can offer a very cost-effective solution to headphone lovers at a price more inviting than I have been able to find with dedicated components.

 
I find the ODAC to be clearer and perhaps slightly better at stereo imaging.
 
If I'm using my HD239s then the onboard soundcard can handle it easily. But with the HD650 the low end goes flat.
 
So, overall its pretty good for integrated sound. And it has a 5.1 output, fine for home theatre, PC speakers and the like, leaving more budget room for spending on speakers and headphones.
 
Still, the issue is that its lower in priority, even from a user perspective. Most would look at other features, and the sound chip wont be a deciding factor for them (atleast it wasn't for me. I wanted something durable and high quality, the audio codec was just a bonus) . I doubt you'll find it in OEM PCs, its more common in high end retail hardware though.

 

[MrMateoHead]

Quote:

 
I find the ODAC to be clearer and perhaps slightly better at stereo imaging.
 
If I'm using my HD239s then the onboard soundcard can handle it easily. But with the HD650 the low end goes flat.
 
So, overall its pretty good for integrated sound. And it has a 5.1 output, fine for home theatre, PC speakers and the like, leaving more budget room for spending on speakers and headphones.
 
Still, the issue is that its lower in priority, even from a user perspective. Most would look at other features, and the sound chip wont be a deciding factor for them (at least it wasn't for me. I wanted something durable and high quality, the audio codec was just a bonus) . I doubt you'll find it in OEM PCs, its more common in high end retail hardware though.

I agree that ultimately sound quality is not necessarily priority #1 on any computer, including a lot of boutique machines. Laptops are tending to dominate sound, and dedicated sound cards do not exist in abundance like they used to, as more and more solutions are integrated. I hear that the beats audio on new HPs is particularly awful in terms of removing factory EQ and DSP crap.
 
That said, there are a fairly limited number of sound chip vendors it seems, and they all (to my ears), produce a very high quality sound compared to other digital and compromised devices I own. Purchasing a dedicated sound card was the first "what a waste" I'd experienced in a long time - when I realized I liked my on-board better. I'd like to get an ODAC, because I think it might impact my overall S/N and provide a little more detail, or at least a consistent experience (mind you I switch between Foobar WASAPI and regular sound drivers a lot depending on what I am doing). It would be nice to "bypass" windows completely. But its hard to believe any difference it really worth the cost.

 

[proton007]

Quote:

I agree that ultimately sound quality is not necessarily priority #1 on any computer, including a lot of boutique machines. Laptops are tending to dominate sound, and dedicated sound cards do not exist in abundance like they used to, as more and more solutions are integrated. I hear that the beats audio on new HPs is particularly awful in terms of removing factory EQ and DSP crap.
 
That said, there are a fairly limited number of sound chip vendors it seems, and they all (to my ears), produce a very high quality sound compared to other digital and compromised devices I own. Purchasing a dedicated sound card was the first "what a waste" I'd experienced in a long time - when I realized I liked my on-board better. I'd like to get an ODAC, because I think it might impact my overall S/N and provide a little more detail, or at least a consistent experience (mind you I switch between Foobar WASAPI and regular sound drivers a lot depending on what I am doing). It would be nice to "bypass" windows completely. But its hard to believe any difference it really worth the cost.

 
I think you should try using the DAC from the sound cards (if you still have any). The DACs are not that bad, will give you the same, if not better, quality in comparison to USB DACs costing the same. And you still get the multi channel line outs.
 
The problem is in the amp section. So just use the line out with an amp of your liking.
However, I agree that USB DACs offer better peace of mind.

 

[MrMateoHead]

Quote:

 
I think you should try using the DAC from the sound cards (if you still have any). The DACs are not that bad, will give you the same, if not better, quality in comparison to USB DACs costing the same. And you still get the multi channel line outs.
 
The problem is in the amp section. So just use the line out with an amp of your liking.
However, I agree that USB DACs offer better peace of mind.

That is my setup lately - Realtek 888 Chipset (7.1 surround, max 24 bit 192 khz, dedicated headphone amp (1 ohm out), line out (100k), Spdif). I line out to my O2 which is now the amp. I can also line-out from the headphone jack and there is surprisingly little difference. I find it to be a great audio chipset. I am using a "gaming" laptop so it is designed more or less to do justice to a surround setup or headphones.

 

[Sycho]

I think you should try using the DAC from the sound cards (if you still have any). The DACs are not that bad, will give you the same, if not better, quality in comparison to USB DACs costing the same. And you still get the multi channel line outs.

The problem is in the amp section. So just use the line out with an amp of your liking.
However, I agree that USB DACs offer better peace of mind.

My question still persists if an amp will improve the signature of my headphones, perhaps increase the bass by a little bit, make it sound more clear, etc.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Quote:

My question still persists if an amp will improve the signature of my headphones, perhaps increase the bass by a little bit, make it sound more clear, etc.

What make and model is the motherboard?
Chances are adding any quality external amplifier would not increase the bass, but it should improve the quality of the bass.
As the HD598s are only 50-Ohm, a headphone output jack with an impedance of 5-Ohms or less is preferred
So you want the headphone's Ohm ratting to be at lease 8 times or more the Ohm rating of the headphone output jack
(Impedance is resistance, measured in Ohms)
Sound cards can have an headphone output impedance ranging from 10-Ohms to 100-Ohms.
Portable headphone amplifier can have an impedance as low as .5-Ohm
I'm of the belief that motherboard's on-board audio comes with a high impedance, but have no data to back that up.
You can always try something as cheap as the Fiio E6 portable headphone amplifier, to see if the audio quality is improved.