[Sovkiller]

In the case of monster do you think they have distributors? Anyway the margins are very tide, but how much do you think these cables will cost to be produced to them, 5.00 bucks ...

 

[AnsBjork]

Is this thread beginning to looks like circular argumentation?

Yes there are instruments that are more precise than human ears. The problem is not the instruments, its the assumptions we make when doing an experimentation. We oversimplify the equation.

Would a doctor tell you that you are well by looking only at your blood pressure? To know about your general health a doctor would have to run numerous tests with very sophisticated instruments. Even with all that cutting edge technology, usually the first test they do is to ask the patient how he/she feels!

To all the scientifically inclined (read the previous posts: I'm a scientific myself) I'll ask a very simple question: What EXACTLY are you trying to measure?

 

[dd3mon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sovkiller In the case of monster do you think they have distributors? Anyway the margins are very tide, but how much do you think these cables will cost to be produced to them, 5.00 bucks ...

Of course monster, and every other major manufacturer has distributors. The only ones that do not, are brands that sell their own cables exclusively. Very few manufacturers would sell their products directly to retailers, because retailers would then have to deal with hundreds of manufacturers instead of only a couple distributors (or even a single distributor in many cases).

This is how all major retail products work. Everyone takes a little off the top. Add up capital overhead (rent,equipment), labor costs (absolutely huge), advertising, and each step along the way (manufacturer, distributor, retailer) taking some off the top, costs of materials is minimal in just about any retail product. One of the reasons this is so, is because they buy their materials at such a low price to begin with (far, far lower than an average consumer could buy them for because of the quantities involved).

Most products are mass-produced at an extremely low cost (pennies on the dollar of the retail price), but much of that gets lost in the process of selling them back to the user (through distributors and retailers) and paying their own bills (rent,labor,advertising,equipment,etc).

-dd3mon

 

[Ctn]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl I WANT to believe that the stock cables for my CDP are the equivalent of the VD Nite cables, but sadly for my wallet, my ears tell me otherwise!

What I said is just a general statement.

But in reference to what you said...compare decent cheap cables with "VD Nite cables" with the suggestions I made.

I have been fooled quite a few times.
Maybe my ears/hifi eq is too low-fi

 

[Joe Bloggs]

I think it's silly to say that our equipment can't 'measure' the difference between cables--I don't think any two brands of cables would measure exactly the same for resistance, capacitance, inductance, frequency response etc. and there probably are precision instruments for which the differences are measured way above the noise level of the instruments. It's just that the differences are so trivial that few people believe they will make any difference

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bloggs I think it's silly to say that our equipment can't 'measure' the difference between cables--I don't think any two brands of cables would measure exactly the same for resistance, capacitance, inductance, frequency response etc. and there probably are precision instruments for which the differences are measured way above the noise level of the instruments. It's just that the differences are so trivial that few people believe they will make any difference

What happen sometimes is that those numbers are not the ones expected, some cable with bigger capacitance, or bigger inductance sounded better that others more fortunate on those figures, so doesn't make sense neither....

 

[Magic77]

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bloggs I think it's silly to say that our equipment can't 'measure' the difference between cables--I don't think any two brands of cables would measure exactly the same for resistance, capacitance, inductance, frequency response etc. and there probably are precision instruments for which the differences are measured way above the noise level of the instruments. It's just that the differences are so trivial that few people believe they will make any difference

Well said. You can't get too crazy about this stuff.

 

[AnsBjork]

Again for the xnd time in this forum (...) the problem is not the equipment or event the mesurement, it is what you are going to measure and how to interpret the results. Measuring the resistance of the cable is simple (anybody could do it) but is not good enough even if you have a measurement precise at the 10th decimal. Remember that all those proprieties like capacitance and inductance change with frequency and when you throw complex harmonics, well, you have a lot of data to analyse... Not to mention all those other important factors that you are not measuring!

I'm sure that if we put a dedicated scientific team on this issue we could get something usable, but frankly, this is out of the leage of the Sunday electronic hobbyist.

By the way I wouldn't trust data from supplier either...

 

[Sovkiller]

IMO this discussion is becoming pretty bored, going in circles to nowhere, anyway for the non belivers, believe what you want, for the believers the same OK??? I know what I believe and period, I trust my ears....and I do not care about papers or specs written by manufacturers neither...

note: edited because of the new Swearing Prohibition Rule

 

[jefemeister]

Quote:

yeah get two different cables, an amp that does mono by sending both signals to both channels, and identical speakers... place the speakers right next to eachother move back to a proper listening position and have somebody swing the balance from one to the other and see if you can hear the big difference.

This test will only work if you're concerned with nothing other than frequency response. In my experience, cables should not effect the freq response if designed correctly. Instead, they improve micro-dynamics, soundstaging, linear coherency, etc. (all of which can effect perceived freq response to some extent) By having only one speaker on at a time and mono at that, there is no way you could hope to experience these things that are stereo by nature. There's a reason there are two speakers in front of you instead of one like back in the day. I'm not going to go down the "do cables make a difference" road, I'm just stating that this idea for test is not only flawed, but quite ridiculous.

 

[J.Y.]

In the world of analog, cables do make a difference.(period)
(this is not saying digital cables make no difference, but I suppose I can argue that all cables are analog)

There are certain changes in sound which we perceive that cannot be measured in FS graphs. Why? This is where cable resonance and phase distortions that are character to each and every cable, and this changes sound.

In terms of increasing perceived bass, one may simply significantly distort the low freq. phase response by connecting more capacitance, in this case, more cable between the (-) side on your speaker and amp. people with extra cable laying around may want to try this little stunt and get big bass out of pretty much any speaker. One might notice that the sound lacks definition and has a significant hf rolloff in this configuration. The same type of distortion may be seen in the hf. more likely due to the interstrand current interaction in stranded cables, and the dielectric, there being no usable perfect dielectric, acts as a capacitor on its own, and releases micro-currents back to the conductor. Phase distortions caused by dielectric is often small enough to be seen on a fs analysis, but is enought to cause audiable difference since this directly affect the "decay time". The frequency of such distortion is very material depending, as this attributes to the often "bright sounding teflon", or the "muddy PVC".

In terms of lowering the resonance point of a cable, it is difficult to just increase the wire gauge without seeing significant skin effect at work before the effects of lowered resonance kick in. Twisting conducter pairs helps lower the resonance point of cables. The cancelling of magnetic fields around the conductors is suppose to lower the resonance. Twisting can also offer an ununiform skin to reduce the effects of skin effect to a degree.

These are not the only factors that effect how cables sound, but these are yet the ones I know that has been ignored from the very first post in this thread. Perhaps this can guide this discussion on to more technical stuff other than marketing crap.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Quote:

Originally posted by AnsBjork Remember that all those proprieties like capacitance and inductance change with frequency

Never heard of such a thing

Are you confusing this with how these two parameters affect different frequencies differently?

 

[J.Y.]

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bloggs Never heard of such a thing Are you confusing this with how these two parameters affect different frequencies differently?

I would agree with the saying that capacitance/inductance is frequency dependent, and so is resistance.

There is a good article at Transparent cables' site about how the resonance frequency of cables change along side of capacitance at different frequencies.

 

[AnsBjork]

Thanks J.Y. for the new points you are bringing to this thread.

You have technically expressed what I was trying to say by "serious experimentation" and "other parameters".

I don't see why we should have "Believers" and "Non-Believers" this is not a faith issue, we are talking about cables!

1) Everything in science is arguable (and must be argued if I can add).
2) Not all things are measurable and deterministic (look at quantum physics).
3) Most natural phenomenon are easy to understand but difficult to measure.
4) The usefulness of partial technical data edited by a marketing department is nil.

5) See point 1

Can a cable characteristics be measured? Sure! But it is not as easy as it seems. An then you have to consider the interaction with your system. I'm sure it's more difficult that just compare two numbers...

 

[Joe Bloggs]

If they are really frequency dependent... Then, somebody show me a 'capacitance response' or 'inductance response' graph...

J.Y. can you link to the article?