[Jasper994]

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bloggs 1. Room interactions will affect the results 2. The test is not blind

If you read the initial post you'd notice that the two speakers would have been placed right next to each other minimizing room interactions and the wiring and balancing would need to have been done by someone other than the listener to make sure that it was indeed blind.

 

[AnsBjork]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tom M
So in theory,there should not be any audible differences in cables?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again, it is not because we didn't mesure it in a "limited" test that it doesn't exist! It could simply means that we are not measuring the right thing or that the experiment is not sensitive enough!

Saying that is like looking at a black and white picture and affirm that colors don't exist because it dosen't show on the paper...

BTW I'm not some kind of esoteric guru, just a mechanical engineer with a strong scientific formation.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasper994 If you read the initial post you'd notice that the two speakers would have been placed right next to each other minimizing room interactions and the wiring and balancing would need to have been done by someone other than the listener to make sure that it was indeed blind.

1. They are still in rather different acoustic environments--there being a big speaker box on either one side or the other contributing to the majority of that difference

2. Hmm, is it still blind when you can hear which speaker the sound is coming from?

I think a plain switchbox arrangement will be better--after all, a balance pot is probably going to cost you more sonically than two switches

And your setup won't allow any comparisons about stereo soundstage.

---
The theoretically possible differences in 'cable sound' can be covered mostly by these criteria:

3 that will theoretically show up in an FR graph:
resistance--a cable with more resistance increases the output resistance
capacitance--capacitance can reduce low frequencies and cause changes in phase
inductance--can reduce high frequencies and also cause changes in phase

And two more that won't:
shielding--a cable with poor shielding will have less noise rejection; and yet unless you live under a radio tower chances of that affecting anything are low
grounding--if the grounds for the source and amp are at different potentials there will be ground hum. AFAIK there are some cable designs which help minimize this?

I *think* that about covers everything.

 

[Czilla9000]

So basically, the main critique against my test is it would not show any difference.





Well then maybe there is no difference

*runs away and hides from the angry torch-carrying mob of cable-philes*


Axiom Audio recently started producing there own line of cables for around $25 per foot. There belief is all cables will sound the same if they use very pure copper and have ample shielding.


This is not to say that if I had 1500s I would not buy some Nites ----I probably would.

 

[tom hankins]

How can they measure focus, presence, soundstage, darker backgrounds and clearity? Because these are the things I notice in the better cables I've tried.

 

[dvw]

If there is no test for this, how does the manufacturer do quality control and out going test?

Do they have a whole bunch of people sit around and listen for soundstage? How do they qualify the operator?

 

[Tom M]

Quote:

Originally posted by tom hankins How can they measure focus, presence, soundstage, darker backgrounds and clearity? Because these are the things I notice in the better cables I've tried.

Good point !

I don't have the answer but maybe someone else does. I think good cables might just be something that makes are systems look nice and make us feel good. Kind of like buying jewlery for our stereos.

 

[Tom M]

Quote:

Originally posted by tom hankins How can they measure focus, presence, soundstage, darker backgrounds and clearity? Because these are the things I notice in the better cables I've tried.

By measuring parameters like inductance and capacitance?

 

[AnsBjork]

Quote:

If there is no test for this, how does the manufacturer do quality control and out going test?

Don't get me started with quality control...

Maybe they weight the cable or check its color?

Back to the cables issue.

Resistance, inductance, capacitance are important variables, but correct me if I'm wrong, those values will change depending on the frequency. They will also change with the length of the wire or if you twist the wire or if the temperature change. If you consider that in regular use our amp does not feed simple sin waves into the cables but complex harmonics, you are looking at a quite complex set of variables.

Of course basic mechanical proprieties of the cables, solderings and contacts will affect those values in a very (more) evident way.

Not to mention EMF interference sensitivity (any cable act as an antenna), surface current density, and all kind of more "esotheric" variables.

To help mixing up things a little bit more, when you change cables you change a part of a system; the other parts in your system will react to that change depending on their own proprieties.

With all the possible combinations out there you better run a lot of serious analisys to get a glimpse of the "reality".

I do belive that cables makes a difference but I don't believe that you need to go broke to get very good sounding cables. Every cables will sound different; but different doesn't necessarly means better. Why use exotic materials (costing more than gold!) in cables if all your circuits inside your other component are made out of good ol' copper? Keep your cables short and you will save money and improve on the sound!

 

[Budgie]

Well put, AnsBjork!

This is one of the best no B.S. write ups on cables I have found-
http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_good_connections/

Most of the really crazy claims I have seen about cables come from people who are trying to sell you a cable. Cables are really not such complex devices that they should be subject to such concern, mysticism, and outrageous pricing.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Budgie Well put, AnsBjork! This is one of the best no B.S. write ups on cables I have found- http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_good_connections/ Most of the really crazy claims I have seen about cables come from people who are trying to sell you a cable. Cables are really not such complex devices that they should be subject to such concern, mysticism, and outrageous pricing.

Actually, the article you quoted says very little about audiophile cables, but here's a quote of what it does say:

Quote:

Is exotic cable really worth the added expense? The answer depends on several variables, including whom you ask, how good your ears are, the listening environment, and the quality of the other components in the system. As suggested earlier, it makes little sense to buy the most expensive cables available if the rest of your system is not of similar quality. Exotic cable designs can include unusual geometries, such as square or flat conductors, to reduce cable capacitance and/or inductance. For speaker cables, some manufacturers minimize self-inductance by using multiple insulated wires to form each conductor. And capacitance is often reduced in line cables with expensive insulators and jackets. Also common is the use of silver, gold, and other expensive materials in conductors and connectors to improve performance. These kinds of tweaks can cost some serious money, resulting in remarkably high-priced cables. But in the right sonic environment with the right gear, they really can provide audible improvements, albeit subtle ones. Whether those improvements are worth the price depends on many factors, starting with your budget and ending with simple common sense. If you are trying to decide whether to spend your inheritance on a pair of speaker cables or a new Jeep, you're probably overdoing it!

Note that this article is simple common sense, and makes no claim that there aren't improvements with the higher end cables. In fact the author states the opposite, that they "really can provide audible improvements". The degree of that improvement, and the value to the listener, can only be decided by each individual listening and making a subjective evaluation of what he hears vs. what he can afford. A cable that may seem expensive to me might not be a big deal to Bill Gates.

 

[Tom M]

There is a section in that article that mentions taking the cable under evaluation and connecting it from your source directly to a recording device. Then later listening to the results of the recording. Is this a decent test?

 

[AnsBjork]

The best test I know of is to connect the cables to your system and then have a good comparative listening. Sometimes reviews and forums (like this one) can help, but I usually don't rely too much on this because of two things:

1) Some very good cables will sound horrible on some system; it is a matter of synergy between the different elements and your personal tastes.

2) Review, even the best ones, are biased.

Sadly testing cables is not always possible without buying first; that is why we could use an objective evaluation system. For the obvious and big differences maybe, but for smaller refinements I just don't think that such a system exist.

I personally use locally made interconnects with bullet plugs (200$US a pair), Link cable for my speakers (about gage 12, shielded, 7$US/foot), and the stock Sennheiser cables on my HD600 (I'm trying the new Meier replacement cables soon).

The interconnects must match your system very well because their characteristics are going to be amplified several times by the amplification process.

Speaker cables are not amplified but still must carry a high current signal on a longer distance, a different challenge from interconnect: you basically need a very good quality conductor.

As for headphone cables, I'm not sure yet. Low current, no amplification short distance... Seems less critical than the other parts of the system. Some cables like the new Zu cables for HD600 cost more than half the price of the cans themselves!

 

[Sugano-san]

Quote:

Originally posted by Czilla9000 Shouldn't it be easy to test?

It's easy to test -- with your ears! It's tough to measure and quantify -- if not impossible.

I trust the above is helpful.

 

[Tom M]

I think that all the mystery makes for confusion and helps cable manufactures and audio dealers take our hard earned dollars from us.