colonelkernel8
Headphoneus Supremus
What I'm hearing is "these earphones are poorly engineered" (they obviously are) and then "let's fix them with a $3000 gold-plated silver cable".
Why pick on cables ?
- Thread starter astroid
- Start date
Ryokan
Headphoneus Supremus
I've just swopped a $150 cable for a $1000 one on a $200 iem and feel that the most noticeable difference is the low end has been 'beefed up'. But it's hard to be really sure as it took a couple of minutes, but the change didn't show up any noteable flaws with the cheaper one. The only sure way to know is doing a test,
Sonic Defender
Headphoneus Supremus
If it is that subtle what a terrible return on investment. Atrocious really don't you think?
Ryokan
Headphoneus Supremus
Well I should add my ears aren't the best. The iem's sound really good now but of course that could be bias. I Didn't buy the cable expecting any difference (bought it discounted) it was for better quality ( the cheaper cable was really hard to take off - not good) and the fact it has 4 different sockets to use with different standards.
Edit: Listening to some Wishbone Ash and other test tracks and instruments seem more defined/layered with more precise imaging, soundstage seems wider than before. 'Seems' is the operative word though. Whether both cables are the same these $200 iem's are very good for the price.
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Sonic Defender
Headphoneus Supremus
I respect you for being brave enough to be open to the possibility that there is no difference with the extremely expensive cable.
Generally the more money people spend on cables, the more difference they claim to hear, and the more sure of the difference they say they are.
You have been reasonable. So uncommon with expensive cable claims here on head-fi. Respect.
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CK Moustache
100+ Head-Fier
And this is the main problem - you can look up "echoic memory" to get a better understanding of why (-> our brain is only capable of storing what our ears have just heard for a very short amount of time (just a few seconds at best) - that's also why I rather dislike doing direct comparisons (be it out of personal curiousity or for a review) of headphones/IEMs/earbuds as it's a super tedious process that involves repeated, rapid switching of gear and concentrating on one specific aspect - definitely easier with speakers
).
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And this is the main problem - you can look up "echoic memory" to get a better understanding of why (-> our brain is only capable of storing what our ears have just heard for a very short amount of time (just a few seconds at best) - that's also why I rather dislike doing direct comparisons (be it out of personal curiousity or for a review) of headphones/IEMs/earbuds as it's a super tedious process that involves repeated, rapid switching of gear and concentrating on one specific aspect - definitely easier with speakers
I am no expert on that stuff by any means but I recently bought myself a little switchbox to do blind A/B comparisons with different source gear.
Flicking instantly between different sources make it somewhat straightforward to pick up any notable difference. In my case there was none but I could mimic a difference by switching on a little bass boost or cross feed on one of the sources. Those more gross changes were really apparent of course and it was very easy to tell which device I was listening with, it was glaringly obvious.
However, with gear that sounded the same, even pausing on the switch for just a few seconds (in a blind volume matched comparison) creates a sense of being completely lost that is quite different to simply unplugging from one device and into the other device sighted with a similar delay.
My point being that the blind comparison and the ability to control the switch time dramatically highlights the effects of psychology and sonic memory much more than I believe people who have never bothered would expect.
Additionally, the impact of psychology is so powerful that even after demonstrating to myself that two devices do not create a sonic change I can go straight back to hearing a difference in more casual sighted comparison.
As I indicated to Mr Moose earlier in this thread, it astounds me that so many people can be so passionate about audio and yet have no interest in understanding the technical and psychological aspects of it in a little more depth and are very happy to go on believing perceptions that are created by bias, sonic memory etc etc and not by the gear they love so much.
Ryokan
Headphoneus Supremus
And this is the main problem - you can look up "echoic memory" to get a better understanding of why (-> our brain is only capable of storing what our ears have just heard for a very short amount of time (just a few seconds at best) - that's also why I rather dislike doing direct comparisons (be it out of personal curiousity or for a review) of headphones/IEMs/earbuds as it's a super tedious process that involves repeated, rapid switching of gear and concentrating on one specific aspect - definitely easier with speakers
Yeah fair point. Except I can't stop listening to these iem's now with the different cable on and usually I swop them after one album. Doesn't prove anything though.
Ryokan
Headphoneus Supremus
What is the IEM, if it is really good for $200 I might need a set
You've virtually already got it
bagwell359
Headphoneus Supremus
49 year long cable journey:
In '76 I heard that the silver plate side of zip cord was inferior, got 16 lengths of 16 ga, discarded the plated side, and made two sets of hand twisted cables. Of course they were better. Then the Monster, AQ, Kimber, Cardas, and others came along. All sighted tests, all obvious results - newer and better (appearance or price or both) until '84.
In '84 started double blind testing, and actually in my very heavy RFI area found differences in SE interconnects (no insulation -> full insulation) in a few cases. Interestingly depending on locale and equipment it was impossible to create a hierarchy. With exotic panel speakers I had available at the time (with difficult loads) found differences in speaker cables and amps as well. But go to something like a Cizek 1 - no differences (the first multi driver speaker that attempted to be an easy load). Of couse we suspected because it wasn't as good as a Quad ESL, or Apogee Duetta.
By '95 I had found XLR interconnects cables were almost always the same sounding, and as the speakers presented more basic loads as time and better engineering took place and the amps had more stable PS/construction the differences were very few and far in between.
I went with Belden, Canare, etc for years thereafter.
2018 dawns: bought a pair of used HE-500 w/ the stock silver plate cable (XLR). A few months later bought a HE-5LE with a Black Dragon cable. Huge difference with the stock cable on the 500. Must be bogus cables. Resoldered both sides - no change. By this time I was doing blind level matched AB. Took off the connectors, installed new ones, still obvious difference. Checked DCA and Audeze cables vs expensive after market ones - nothing conclusive. Have been able to find differences in stock HD-600 cable (could be age), and the 'surgical' OG cable on the HE-6 SE, but not extreme, and I stuck with the first sets that were better and didn't hunt for the 'best'.
My take: all cables are not the same. Wire has 3 characteristics that can be measured: Resistance, capacitance, inductance. Depending on gauge/windings these can be manipulated. Cardas was well known for a line of all sorts of characteristics in the 90's - not sure what they do now. I would wager one could find cables of low and high expense that are twins and nobody would pass a double blind.
Advice: Relax and go with as pure a copper as one can get with really good air tight connectors and stop obsessing. If you want to search for the 'best' you won't likely be successful unless you go double blind because the biases will decide for you.
I do notice that makers of expensive cables never list the 3 properties of their cables - instead going with subjectives designed to make them the special few who have discovered exalted truths, and you too can join - for mere money.
In '76 I heard that the silver plate side of zip cord was inferior, got 16 lengths of 16 ga, discarded the plated side, and made two sets of hand twisted cables. Of course they were better. Then the Monster, AQ, Kimber, Cardas, and others came along. All sighted tests, all obvious results - newer and better (appearance or price or both) until '84.
In '84 started double blind testing, and actually in my very heavy RFI area found differences in SE interconnects (no insulation -> full insulation) in a few cases. Interestingly depending on locale and equipment it was impossible to create a hierarchy. With exotic panel speakers I had available at the time (with difficult loads) found differences in speaker cables and amps as well. But go to something like a Cizek 1 - no differences (the first multi driver speaker that attempted to be an easy load). Of couse we suspected because it wasn't as good as a Quad ESL, or Apogee Duetta.
By '95 I had found XLR interconnects cables were almost always the same sounding, and as the speakers presented more basic loads as time and better engineering took place and the amps had more stable PS/construction the differences were very few and far in between.
I went with Belden, Canare, etc for years thereafter.
2018 dawns: bought a pair of used HE-500 w/ the stock silver plate cable (XLR). A few months later bought a HE-5LE with a Black Dragon cable. Huge difference with the stock cable on the 500. Must be bogus cables. Resoldered both sides - no change. By this time I was doing blind level matched AB. Took off the connectors, installed new ones, still obvious difference. Checked DCA and Audeze cables vs expensive after market ones - nothing conclusive. Have been able to find differences in stock HD-600 cable (could be age), and the 'surgical' OG cable on the HE-6 SE, but not extreme, and I stuck with the first sets that were better and didn't hunt for the 'best'.
My take: all cables are not the same. Wire has 3 characteristics that can be measured: Resistance, capacitance, inductance. Depending on gauge/windings these can be manipulated. Cardas was well known for a line of all sorts of characteristics in the 90's - not sure what they do now. I would wager one could find cables of low and high expense that are twins and nobody would pass a double blind.
Advice: Relax and go with as pure a copper as one can get with really good air tight connectors and stop obsessing. If you want to search for the 'best' you won't likely be successful unless you go double blind because the biases will decide for you.
I do notice that makers of expensive cables never list the 3 properties of their cables - instead going with subjectives designed to make them the special few who have discovered exalted truths, and you too can join - for mere money.
Who says you need a $3K cable to fix an IEM? I'm merely providing an extreme case of plausible audible differences between IEM cables and has @bagwell359 have already explained, there are key factors such as Resistance, capacitance, inductance that can cause an IEM to sound different with different IEM cables. I clearly did NOT ever say the $3K cable automatically sounds better. It's merely an audible change NOT Claiming an audible enhancement whatsoever.
bigshot
Headphoneus Supremus
There’s no excuse for creating non standard impedances. It doesn’t improve sound or specs. All it does is force you to buy an overpriced proprietary accessories. ColonelKernal is right. You’re describing something that is poorly engineered.
Ryokan
Headphoneus Supremus
Changed a cable on a different iem to see if it offered a better fit with the ear hooks and could it possibly change the sound slightly to? as the iem's are very spacious and open sounding, which I actually really like but they sometimes seem to border on being too open/bright. After listening to a few samples the sound wasn't as bright and was slightly warmer which initially sounded good but I began to miss the 'openness' of the other. I don't like keep swopping cables as it adds wear to the delicate pins and puts strain on the iem connector, but swopped back after about 10 minutes and they once again sounded brighter and more open. I would say the other cable made the sound slightly warmer and took off the edge to the open soundstage.
This proves absolutely nothing of course and I know I'll get some flack for saying this, especially here, but I will always say it as I hear it, if that makes me look foolish so be it. And from this quick 'experiment' I can well understand why people say cables can make a slight difference. While using each cable I also moved the earphones around slightly to see it it was down to positioning but no matter how I adjusted the main differences remained.
This proves absolutely nothing of course and I know I'll get some flack for saying this, especially here, but I will always say it as I hear it, if that makes me look foolish so be it. And from this quick 'experiment' I can well understand why people say cables can make a slight difference. While using each cable I also moved the earphones around slightly to see it it was down to positioning but no matter how I adjusted the main differences remained.
bigshot
Headphoneus Supremus
your description of what you hear is the classic description of expectation bias. Absent controls on your listening test, it can be pretty safely dismissed.
your lack of controls is essentially training you for bias.
your lack of controls is essentially training you for bias.
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