Why pick on cables ?

[bigshot]

There’s no qualification for posting opinions on the Internet. That means there are always going to be people speaking of things that they really have no understanding of. The interesting thing about headfi is that it seems to be actively promoting that demographic.

 

[theveterans]

Yes the wild shelf makes it a project for matching cables and DAP personalities. And yes I have two gold-plated copper cables that work, but it is a microscope into the cables ideas of treble. I have different cables I like as the years roll by with this one, and bad cables too!

I'm referring to this type of graph:

Campfire Andromeda impedace/frequency/phase relationship

 

[colonelkernel8]

I think that’s the point to have a meaningful audible difference. Then price can easily affect perception bias

I don't think it's a "meaningful audible difference" if there isn't actually a physical signal difference, and just a difference in the bias of your perceptions. In fact I can't think of a less meaningful difference.

By the way do you guys know how cheap it is to gold plate stuff? It's like the cheapest operation you can imagine. I could gold plate many, many meters of silver wire for a few bucks. It's like the song "Little Lies", you're paying these cable companies thousands of dollars to lie to you because you WANT to influence your perception (it's like Fraud Plus). Let me tell you, a little weed will get you way further than a $3000 cable if you want to seriously, temporarily alter your auditory perception. I can't recommend it enough (seriously if you haven't tried taking a few cannabis gummies/a puff or two on a vape and listening to your favorite music you're missing out).

 

[theveterans]

I don't think it's a "meaningful audible difference" if there isn't actually a physical signal difference, and just a difference in the bias of your perceptions. In fact I can't think of a less meaningful difference.

If you use the Campfire Andromeda IEM as your test IEM solely because of its wild impedance and super low impedance on the bass shelf, you can easily, far more noticeable than swapping DAPs, perceive a difference between jewelry cables (gold plated silver conductors + gold plated gold-silver alloy conductor) and a bog standard cable

 

[colonelkernel8]

If you use the Campfire Andromeda IEM as your test IEM solely because of its wild impedance and super low impedance on the bass shelf, you can easily, far more noticeable than swapping DAPs, perceive a difference between jewelry cables (gold plated silver conductors + gold plated gold-silver alloy conductor) and a bog standard cable

I just don't believe you. Why should I believe you?

 

[Redcarmoose]

I don't think it's a "meaningful audible difference" if there isn't actually a physical signal difference, and just a difference in the bias of your perceptions. In fact I can't think of a less meaningful difference.

By the way do you guys know how cheap it is to gold plate stuff? It's like the cheapest operation you can imagine. I could gold plate many, many meters of silver wire for a few bucks. It's like the song "Little Lies", you're paying these cable companies thousands of dollars to lie to you because you WANT to influence your perception (it's like Fraud Plus). Let me tell you, a little weed will get you way further than a $3000 cable if you want to seriously, temporarily alter your auditory perception. I can't recommend it enough (seriously if you haven't tried taking a few cannabis gummies/a puff or two on a vape and listening to your favorite music you're missing out).

Tried that over and over while listening to music in the 1970s to 1980s. I’m good now with coffee and an occasional beer or two.

 

[Ryokan]

I can't recommend it enough (seriously if you haven't tried taking a few cannabis gummies/a puff or two on a vape and listening to your favorite music you're missing out).

 

[2leftears]

I wasn’t clear with that statement. Sorry. I apologize. What I mean is what if what you see and what you are using just because you saw it brings about mental changes beyond the bias. Like sure when you see the label on a bottle of wine the expensive wine at times tastes better. But what if seeing the cable created another level of perception that was different than you not seeing it. I know that is the basis for blindfolded tests, but I’m trying to show that maybe there is even another level to this perception error or correctness?

I know that sounds crazy, but sure maybe it is just sighted expectation bias....but what if there is more to it?

By the way I love that group perception bias idea. I’m guessing it has been proven!

I'm not sure you understand what a blind test is, you keep talking about blindfolds. Who says you can't see the cable(s) in a blind test? All that matters is that you don't know which one is being used. You can do that with a programatically controlled random switch, or have someone plug in either one or the other without telling you which or otherwise giving away which one is plugged in.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I'm not sure you understand what a blind test is, you keep talking about blindfolds. Who says you can't see the cable(s) in a blind test? All that matters is that you don't know which one is being used. You can do that with a programatically controlled random switch, or have someone plug in either one or the other without telling you which or otherwise giving away which one is plugged in.

Yes.

 

[castleofargh]

I just don't believe you. Why should I believe you?

That IEM is an extreme in impedance values that will magnify other impedance variations and also challenge the amp section with a near short circuit condition at some frequencies. So if your plug is higher impedance than the other, it might change the FR audibly, or even on occasion change how loud you need to go to make some amps distort.
@theveterans suggesting that IEM makes sense IMO, as if something is going to sound different for impedance related matters, it's more likely to happen on that IEM. It's not a typical case, it's clearly a hyper extreme. It doesn't validate anything for the average IEM either. But when seeking audibility of impedance variations, it's the killer sample of IEMs.

 

[theveterans]

That IEM is an extreme in impedance values that will magnify other impedance variations and also challenge the amp section with a near short circuit condition at some frequencies. So if your plug is higher impedance than the other, it might change the FR audibly, or even on occasion change how loud you need to go to make some amps distort.
@theveterans suggesting that IEM makes sense IMO, as if something is going to sound different for impedance related matters, it's more likely to happen on that IEM. It's not a typical case, it's clearly a hyper extreme. It doesn't validate anything for the average IEM either. But when seeking audibility of impedance variations, it's the killer sample of IEMs.

Thanks for the explanation!

At one point I tried the Campfire Andromeda on a Schiit Asgard 2 amp and was actually able to trip its circuit protection relay system in just under 10 seconds of playback. The Schiit Vali++ survived the test and is actually playing it just fine at -20dB input from DAC

Let me tell you, a little weed will get you way further than a $3000 cable if you want to seriously, temporarily alter your auditory perception. I can't recommend it enough (seriously if you haven't tried taking a few cannabis gummies/a puff or two on a vape and listening to your favorite music you're missing out).

I prefer to stay caffeinated rather than being under the influence that's more potent than caffeine while I'm enjoying my music

 

[gregorio]

@theveterans suggesting that IEM makes sense IMO, as if something is going to sound different for impedance related matters, it's more likely to happen on that IEM. It's not a typical case, it's clearly a hyper extreme. It doesn't validate anything for the average IEM either. But when seeking audibility of impedance variations, it's the killer sample of IEMs.

Maybe I misunderstood/misread but surely it depends on what impedance related matters we’re talking about? It seems to me what @theveterans was talking about was the cable materials: “a difference between jewelry cables (gold plated silver conductors + gold plated gold-silver alloy conductor) and a bog standard cable”. - IE. Gold/Silver/Copper (plated/alloys). If we’re talking about say the impedance of different cable cross-sections (gauges) and the connector/plug then sure, that might make an audible difference with such extreme (to the point of being defective) IEMs but the impedance of the conductor material? The difference in impedance between gold, silver and copper is less than a millionth of an Ohm, are you suggesting that could cause an audible difference even with such extreme IEMs?

I’m with @colonelkernel8 on this one, I couldn’t believe the claim without some solid evidence.

G

 

[theveterans]

If we’re talking about say the impedance of different cable cross-sections (gauges) and the connector/plug then sure, that might make an audible difference with such extreme (to the point of being defective) IEMs but the impedance of the conductor material? The difference in impedance between gold, silver and copper is less than a millionth of an Ohm, are you suggesting that could cause an audible difference even with such extreme IEMs?

If you take into account the impedance of the whole cable 26 awg per sheath times 8 sheaths (8-cable braid) against a standard cable and not just conductor and use a very extreme IEM, my claim can definitely be plausible IMHO

 

[BS5711]

That’s my whole point that IEM cables do sound different depending on the IEM you use. It’s where I’m confident to pass a DBT ABX between 2 short pigtail adapters as long as Campfire Andromeda is being used as the IEM for testing. You already know the science behind it

We see this very differently.

If you use an IEM that is very sensitive to the combined impedance of the amplifier and cable you can indeed alter its sound by simply altering the impedance of the amp and cable combination.

You could achieve that by changing the amplifier and/or the cable but the change isn’t proof of some tangible superior characteristic of either the amplifier or the cable that will carry over to other IEM.

That impedance change could be the result of a number of factors and a poor quality cable might in fact create a greater difference in sound or a preferable difference than a ridiculously expensive one.

The change isn’t necessarily the result of the material in the cable it is simply the result of the impedance change. Even if by lucky chance the expensive cable created the perfect sonic change for the user that sonic change won’t carry over to other IEM and isn’t a demonstration of the definitive superiority of the very expensive cable.

In fact the same sonic change could be created by using a different amplifier or DAP and a cheap cable that in combination has the same output impedance as the expensive cable and whatever amplifier was used.

Bottom line, yes you may be able to differentiate cables with that specific IEM but that is a function of the IEM characteristics not proof that overall cables alter sound from every IEM. It is an outlier case that is an exception to the rule but doesn’t disprove the rule.

 

[gregorio]

If you take into account the impedance of the whole cable 26 awg per sheath times 8 sheaths (8-cable braid) against a standard cable and not just conductor and use a very extreme IEM, my claim can definitely be plausible IMHO

That’s not solid evidence and in fact does not even address the issue, which was your assertion of “jewellery cables” (IE. Including gold or silver) rather than “bog standard” copper cables. You’re now just talking about the impedance of wire gauge (effective gauge), so how will a cheap/standard copper cable (with the correct effective gauge for the job) be audibly different to a “jewellery cable”? And again, with actual reliable evidence this time please!

G