Why pick on cables ?

[BS5711]

Not everything like stage, timbre, pace can be measured with IEMs. So evidence is not always obtainable.

Are you sure ? I understand that notion is being dispelled assuming the right testing. Regardless there is plenty that can be measured and plenty of scope to compare known technical facts against controlled listening to help isolate genuinely audible differences versus perceptions. If you or anyone believes they can tell a rhodium plated plug versus a plain plug that is very easy to actually test but more or less nobody will do that because they don’t really want to actually understand the technical aspects of audio better they are happy to simply go along with their feelings.

If it is purely about personal enjoyment have at it but when providing information to others I feel a person has a level of obligation to actually make efforts to understand things in a more technical manner.

It seems I am in a tiny minority on that score.

I have done blind volume matched comparisons and the difference between that and normal sighted comparison is utterly profound. You might find it interesting.

Right but notice all race cars have different equipment as well as equipment opinions as to amounts of potential benefit. If this wasn’t the case all cars for racing would be identical as well, especially for the style of racing, and courses raced.

In any race class they don’t tune the car by seat of the pants feel alone which in the analogy to audio is what you and most people do.

In reality they will dyno tune for horsepower and use mechanical measurements and measured lap times to tune handling to be sure that the performance they think they have is really the performance they are getting.

The audio analogy of that is what I believe a really passionate audio enthusiast would do but most, you included, don’t do that you go by normal listening experience only which a demonstrably at the mercy of bias and flawed perception.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I think @BS5711 meant evidence of you being able to hear a difference, not measured evidence.

In practice this would involve some form of properly conducted blind listening test(s).

Right, well what about no blindfolds used. I mean does it really matter. The great tough guy Sound Science response is “we asked those guys for blindfolded tests and got no response, therefore we won!”

Haha.
I have many times put the wrong headphone (IEM) in my ears and heard the one I was supposed to hear. I have heard over 200 IEMs. At times I have also put the wrong IEM in and been totally confused. I have a belief that sure there is some psychological force to these experiences, but of course perception is much of the time fickle!

 

[BS5711]

Haha.
I have many times put the wrong headphone (IEM) in my ears and heard the one I was supposed to hear. I have heard over 200 IEMs. At times I have also put the wrong IEM in and been totally confused. I have a belief that sure there is some psychological force to these experiences, but of course perception is much of the time fickle!

That is an example of the point I am making.

You fooled your audio perception, how often is that happening for other reasons ? The genuinely accurate answer is you simply don’t know, none of us know how or if we are being misled by bias yet we are very frequently.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Are you sure ? I understand that notion is being dispelled assuming the right testing. Regardless there is plenty that can be measured and plenty of scope to compare known technical facts against controlled listening to help isolate genuinely audible differences versus perceptions. If you or anyone believes they can tell a rhodium plated plug versus a plain plug that is very easy to actually test but more or less nobody will do that because they don’t really want to actually understand the technical aspects of audio better they are happy to simply go along with their feelings.

If it is purely about personal enjoyment have at it but when providing information to others I feel a person has a level of obligation to actually make efforts to understand things in a more technical manner.

It seems I am in a tiny minority on that score.

I have done blind volume matched comparisons and the difference between that and normal sighted comparison is utterly profound. You might find it interesting.



In any race class they don’t tune the car by seat of the pants feel alone which in the analogy to audio is what you and most people do.

In reality they will dyno tune for horsepower and use mechanical measurements and measured lap times to tune handling to be sure that the performance they think they have is really the performance they are getting.

The audio analogy of that is what I believe a really passionate audio enthusiast would do but most, you included, don’t do that you go by normal listening experience only which a demonstrably at the mercy of bias and flawed perception.

I am positive about the IEMs having many things left out of the graph measurement. Timbre, stage, imaging and pace to name a few. You obviously don’t know what your taking about in regards to IEM measurements.

Hah, you question my ability to write reviews based on simply my perception of quality? That my friend is Head-Fi. Choose an IEM and find 5 different graphs for it. I feel sorry for someone who guesses this as simple stuff. Show me a timbre graph for an IEM........a waterfall that accurately shows stage. The pace graph? It doesn’t show with IEMs.

All reviews are biased and based on subjective listening, sorry to break it to you. Still some offer more objective news, others more emotional ideas.

A dyno test testing different car parts from different manufacturers.

I’m with the Sound Science crowd in wanting more accurate testing, there is only so much at this point. Read and believe the reviews from writers you like and trust. I’m out of this thread. It’s been fun.

 

[BS5711]

I am positive about the IEMs having many things left out of the graph measurement. Timbre, stage, imaging and pace to name a few. You obviously don’t know what your taking about in regards to IEM measurements.

Hah, you question my ability to write reviews based on simply my perception of quality? That my friend is Head-Fi. Choose an IEM and find 5 different graphs for it. I feel sorry for someone who guesses this as simple stuff. Show me a timbre graph for an IEM........a waterfall that accurately shows stage. The pace graph? It doesn’t show with IEMs.

All reviews are biased and based on subjective listening, sorry to break it to you. Still some offer more objective news, others more emotional ideas.

A dyno test testing different care parts from different manufacturers.

You are not understanding what I am saying or I am wording it poorly.

I am not talking about IEM reviews and personal preferences, this started with cable discussion so my comments were purely about whether you or others are actually hearing sonic differences with cables and a myriad of other things that apparently all make a difference.

I am not questioning your preference or ability to describe an IEM sound to someone, that is essentially unrelated.

---

Here is a test for you Moose, seriously. It would be pretty easy to do and no blindfold needed.

You have talked about the sonic difference made by a rhodium plug versus a normal one, yes ?

OK

Take a good IEM and your favourite Penon cable with interchangeable terminations, one you have a standard and a rhodium plug for.

Do a normal comparison of the rhodium plug and the normal one looking at the equipment in your usual manner. I am certain they will sound different, they always do.

Now put the IEM on with the cable at your back not front and have a loving partner or begrudging friend help you. Have them change the termination randomly and you compare them with no knowledge of what is on the cable.

Get them to do that 20 times and record your choice each time but not say a word about you being right or wrong. If the test is done honestly I would say with near certainty you will be confused and feel completely lost within no time and will choose the right one about 50% of the time, that being the same as pure chance.

Doing it a few times and getting say 4 out of 5 isn’t statistically significant so it needs to be a good number of reputations to stand scrutiny.

If my prediction is accurate why would that be ? Where has the once obvious sonic difference gone, nothing has changed except you can’t see what you are listening with. Why would that matter, you don’t listen with your eyes .

Would you be willing to do that and report back ?

 

[Redcarmoose]

You are not understanding what I am saying or I am wording it poorly.

I am not talking about IEM reviews and personal preferences, this started with cable discussion so my comments were purely about whether you or others are actually hearing sonic differences with cables and a myriad of other things that apparently all make a difference.

I am not questioning your preference or ability to describe an IEM sound to someone, that is essentially unrelated.

---

Here is a test for you Moose, seriously. It would be pretty easy to do and no blindfold needed.

You have talked about the sonic difference made by a rhodium plug versus a normal one, yes ?

OK

Take a good IEM and your favourite Penon cable with interchangeable terminations, one you have a standard and a rhodium plug for.

Do a normal comparison of the rhodium plug and the normal on looking at the equipment in your usual manner. I am certain they will sound different, they always do.

Now put the IEM on with the cable at your back not front and have a loving partner or begrudging friend help you. Have them change the termination randomly and you compare them with no knowledge of what is on the cable.

Get them to do that 20 times and record your choice each time but not say a word about you being right or wrong. If the test is done honestly I would say with near certainty you will be confused and feel completely lost within no time and will choose the right one about 50% of the time, that being the same as pure chance.

Doing it a few times and getting say 4 out of 5 isn’t statistically significant so it needs to be a good number of reputations to stand scrutiny.

If my prediction is accurate why would that be ? Where has the once obvious sonic difference gone, nothing has changed except you can’t see what you are listening with. Why would that matter, you don’t listen with your eyes .

Would you be willing to do that and report back ?

I’ll take the above in to account, being I don’t want to be viewed (or actually be) closed minded, and I will give it some thought, at this point I am backed up by a few reviews, but I will save this post.

 

[BS5711]

I’ll take the above in to account, being I don’t want to be viewed (or actually be) closed minded, and I will give it some thought, at this point I am backed up by a few reviews, but I will save this post.

No hurry mate.

I appreciate the fact you are even willing to entertain the idea and look forward to your findings.

Talk later I hope

 

[Redcarmoose]

No hurry mate.

I appreciate the fact you are even willing to entertain the idea and look forward to your findings.

Talk later I hope

I’m always game for leaning more. Thanks for the test.

 

[2leftears]

Right, well what about no blindfolds used. I mean does it really matter.

Yes, it does matter. In context of perception bias a sighted test is a rigged test (either subconscious or conscious), and offers no scientific proof. If offers (personal) evidence of a perception, but it offers no proof for attributing that perception to specific factors, even if 1000 people do the same test with the same result, since people share many of the same perception biases, (especially if they have read a review or two beforehand...)

Reviewers stating their preference I have no issue with. If they attribute that preference to spurious factors such as the choice of conductor material, without doing a proper scientific evaluation, I have no issue with that either provided their keep their 'epiphany' to themselves. But if they disseminate it as a fact, and entice others to spend their money on it, I do have a problem with that.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Yes, it does matter. In context of perception bias a sighted test is a rigged test (either subconscious or conscious), and offers no scientific proof. If offers (personal) evidence of a perception, but it offers no proof for attributing that perception to specific factors, even if 1000 people do the same test with the same result, since people share many of the same perception biases, (especially if they have read a review or two beforehand...)

Reviewers stating their preference I have no issue with. If they attribute that preference to spurious factors such as the choice of conductor material, without doing a proper scientific evaluation, I have no issue with that either provided their keep their 'epiphany' to themselves. But if they disseminate it as a fact, and entice others to spend their money on it, I do have a problem with that.

I wasn’t clear with that statement. Sorry. I apologize. What I mean is what if what you see and what you are using just because you saw it brings about mental changes beyond the bias. Like sure when you see the label on a bottle of wine the expensive wine at times tastes better. But what if seeing the cable created another level of perception that was different than you not seeing it. I know that is the basis for blindfolded tests, but I’m trying to show that maybe there is even another level to this perception error or correctness?

I know that sounds crazy, but sure maybe it is just sighted expectation bias....but what if there is more to it?

By the way I love that group perception bias idea. I’m guessing it has been proven!

 

[theveterans]

Again, I don't think picking on the Andromeda is a logical test of wire type or adapter imposed degradation since any impedance change may be sufficient to result in an audible frequency response shift. Yes that is the cable changing the sound but it would be due to an impedance change not some properties unique to the wire. You could easily achieve the same effect by using a source device with a similarly different output impedance or even pop a suitable resistor in the cable or a pigtail wire

That’s my whole point that IEM cables do sound different depending on the IEM you use. It’s where I’m confident to pass a DBT ABX between 2 short pigtail adapters as long as Campfire Andromeda is being used as the IEM for testing. You already know the science behind it

 

[colonelkernel8]

Yes pretty much what makes a 3K IEM cable different against a $30 IEM cable at least on the conductor side

My favorite is when they use gold, which is expensive but also not that great of a conductor of electricity. Aluminum, copper and silver are all better.

 

[Redcarmoose]

That’s my whole point that IEM cables do sound different depending on the IEM you use. It’s where I’m confident to pass a DBT ABX between 2 short pigtail adapters as long as Campfire Andromeda is being used as the IEM for testing. You already know the science behind it

I totally understand the preference for the CA Andromeda, as I have never heard the Andromeda but tried to hear it when it was popular.
I actually use an IEM that was popular at the same time called the Nobel Audio K-10 Encore. The Encore has a wicked treble shelf that is in need of being catered to by a cable or cable and extra wire adapter. With 10 BAs it is this tip top energy focus that responds well to darker cables, where even smooth added silver alloy cables can make the peak too bright depending on source and ear-tips.

Many have and use what is called IEM audio microscopes to judge cable performance audibly.

 

[theveterans]

I totally understand the preference for the CA Andromeda, as I have never heard the Andromeda but tried to hear it when it was popular.
I actually use an IEM that was popular at the same time called the Nobel Audio K-10 Encore. The Encore has a wicked treble shelf that is in need of being catered to by a cable or cable and extra wire adapter. With 10 BAs it is this tip top energy focus that responds well to darker cables, where even smooth added silver alloy cables can make the peak too bright depending on source and ear-tips.

Many have and use what is called IEM audio microscopes to judge cable performance audibly.

I don’t know if there’s impedance/frequency/phase specs for the Encore to know if say a gold plated copper would respond well to taming the energy in the treble by thickening/boosting the bass

My favorite is when they use gold, which is expensive but also not that great of a conductor of electricity. Aluminum, copper and silver are all better.

I think that’s the point to have a meaningful audible difference. Then price can easily affect perception bias

 

[Redcarmoose]

I don’t know if there’s impedance/frequency/phase specs for the Encore to know if say a gold plated copper would respond well to taming the energy in the treble by thickening/boosting the bass



I think that’s the point to have a meaningful audible difference. Then price can easily affect perception bias

Yes the wild shelf makes it a project for matching cables and DAP personalities. And yes I have two gold-plated copper cables that work, but it is a microscope into the cables ideas of treble. I have different cables I like as the years roll by with this one, and bad cables too!