Why pick on cables ?

May 19, 2025 at 3:23 AM Post #436 of 731
I've read that putting extra 'links' in the audio chain will always degrade the sound slightly, but obviously don't know if that's correct and only have my ears to judge which are not reliable and change throughout the course of the day.
Clearly that is not true. Your ears cannot judge anything, it’s your brain that does the judging, not your ears. Apart from the obvious fact that your assertion is wrong according to basic anatomy and neuroscience, it’s also problematic because the brain is subject to biases which can/will affect that judgement and you’ve even actually detailed the source of such a bias (what you’ve read)! The problem with what you’ve read is another example of audiophiles being easily manipulated due to their lack of understanding/appreciation of “scale”.

Putting extra links in the audio chain” (analogue audio chain) will always affect/degrade the analogue signal but the scale of degradation is minuscule, too small to even be resolved into sound, let alone be audible. So “no” it will not “always degrade the sound slightly” (unless of course it’s defective)! This is one of those audiophile myths that originated in the recording side of the equation: When we’re recording, we try to avoid unnecessary additional links/connections because there’s already a lot of connections, cable runs are relatively long and most importantly, the signal is likely to be amplified by 100 - 1,000 times before it even reaches the consumers’ speaker/HP amplifiers and therefore any effect/degradation will also be amplified 100 - 1,000 times. Think about recording an electric guitar for example; we’ve got the two connections out of the guitar into the guitar amp, two more out of the guitar amp to the cab, two more out of the mic (in front of the cab) and into the stage box, two more from the stage box into the mic pre amp and then all that “degradation” is amplified dozens of times and then two more from the mic pre-amp into the ADC, not to mention the typical 1-4 “pedal” effects each with another two connections. On top of that back in the analogue days, you’d have analogue connections to the tape recorder and then after recording; two more connections out of the tape recorder into the mixing desk, probably dozens more within the desk itself, connecting all the EQ, compression, sends and returns, sub-busses, bantam patchbays, back out to a recorder again and then on to a mastering engineer to add all their connections to, from and within their mixing desks. If each of these numerous connections did “always degrade the sound slightly” (but audibly) how could we ever have delivered analogue recordings to consumers that contained anything other than mush that’s so hideously degraded it’s unrecognisable?
For digital connections, I find adapters to be useful for tweaking the sound. I actually use combinations of adapters, including the infamous Apple CCK especially on the digital side to fine tune the sound.
I hate to break it to you but digital connections don’t carry any sound (or even an analogue signal that will be transduced into sound)! Therefore it is literally impossible to “tweak”/“fine tune the sound” with a digital connection, which is pretty much the reason why digital audio was invented in the first place! How many hundreds/thousands of digital connections do you think digital data has to travel through to get half way round the world from say an Apple or Spotify server to your DAC and if each of them arbitrarily tweaked/fine tuned the sound, how would there be anything recognisable left? Come on, try to use your brain, at least a little!
You will get better quality with the more expensive adapters with short cables, but it will NOT be transparent to the source, i.e. it will still impart its own signature, but you should've a much better chance of not sacrificing clarity or black background with the higher quality one.
Do you have any shred of reliable evidence to support that claim? And as you apparently don’t seem to know, audiophile marketing is NOT reliable evidence, it’s marketing. “There’s a sucker born every minute” is a phrase from the mid 19th century commonly attributed to P.T. Barnum, I know your username is “theveterans” but you really should try to catch up with the 1800’s, if not the C21st!

G
 
May 19, 2025 at 3:24 AM Post #437 of 731
Here we go again:
Sighted, poorly controlled event that is considered unreliable by the entire scientific community, but declared the best by me.
--->feelings caused by whatever. We don't know, that's the consequence of poor control
--->anecdote
--->made up reason as to why it happens
--->deciding it's a fact because I'm the one who got the idea, and it seems believable enough to me(well duh, I got that idea so it must be good)
--->generalization out of nowhere. Caution is for the weak
---> someone reacts, saying he can't believe how many levels of wrong were applied to arrive to that generalization
---> "I know what I head", I never second guess what I have arbitrarily invented as truth based on bad experiment. Why? 100% because I don't like how it feels. Cognitive dissonance isn't fun.
---> if measurements or fact based knowledge suggest rejecting that generalization or maybe even the original anecdote, then Measurements are wrong or there is more to sound than what can be measured, or some other BS to avoid looking at all the issues on my side of the argument
---> attack the other side and everything they used to get fact based knowledge, hoping they will forget about my BS while chasing some straw man argument. I'm past the point of running away, I have forced myself into a stupid corner, and everything I do after that is done in bad faith.
---> make more empty claims about completely different stuff that I also can't prove and don't know much of anything about because at this point, trolling and baiting is all I have.
 
May 19, 2025 at 5:10 AM Post #438 of 731
Clearly that is not true. Your ears cannot judge anything, it’s your brain that does the judging, not your ears. Apart from the obvious fact that your assertion is wrong according to basic anatomy and neuroscience,

Jeez, and I always thought I was built like a Mr Potato Head!

Yes Gregorio, thank you Gregorio :relaxed:

worthy.gif
 
May 19, 2025 at 5:17 AM Post #439 of 731
I thought just the single word “Absurd” answered that misconception pretty completely, but someone seems to have disagreed.

By the way, isn’t the post above me an example of singling out a participant like we were discussing the other day? I’m not going to invoke the admins myself by pushing the red, candy colored history eraser button because that doesn’t always help in these situations.
 
Last edited:
May 19, 2025 at 5:26 AM Post #440 of 731
By the way, isn’t the post above me an example of singling out a participant like we were discussing the other day? I’m not going to invoke the admins myself by pushing the red, candy colored history eraser button because that doesn’t always help in these situations.

No laughing in heaven :cry:


Here we go again:
Sighted, poorly controlled event that is considered unreliable by the entire scientific community, but declared the best by me.
--->feelings caused by whatever. We don't know, that's the consequence of poor control
--->anecdote
--->made up reason as to why it happens
--->deciding it's a fact because I'm the one who got the idea, and it seems believable enough to me(well duh, I got that idea so it must be good)
--->generalization out of nowhere. Caution is for the weak
---> someone reacts, saying he can't believe how many levels of wrong were applied to arrive to that generalization
---> "I know what I head", I never second guess what I have arbitrarily invented as truth based on bad experiment. Why? 100% because I don't like how it feels. Cognitive dissonance isn't fun.
---> if measurements or fact based knowledge suggest rejecting that generalization or maybe even the original anecdote, then Measurements are wrong or there is more to sound than what can be measured, or some other BS to avoid looking at all the issues on my side of the argument
---> attack the other side and everything they used to get fact based knowledge, hoping they will forget about my BS while chasing some straw man argument. I'm past the point of running away, I have forced myself into a stupid corner, and everything I do after that is done in bad faith.
---> make more empty claims about completely different stuff that I also can't prove and don't know much of anything about because at this point, trolling and baiting is all I have.

All I've stated the last few pages is if something sounds better to me then I keep that component, I'll try alternatives a few times, as I know hearing is constantly changing and never static, but if each time that's the case then it goes, It's all I can go on.
Maybe the component sounds different paired with something else as I'm not using it with a something that's properly rated for it? One thing I've learnt here is there are many variables to take into account and I shouldn't say 'X' is better than 'Y' because I haven't properly tested it. I just mentioned my experience with a cheap pigtail as I believed it degraded the sound and mainly put that down to having too many interfaces, but @gregorio has stated that there should be no audible degradation. Which makes me think it's simply down to a cheap (materials used) and poorly constructed adapter.
 
Last edited:
May 19, 2025 at 2:55 PM Post #441 of 731
Which makes me think it's simply down to a cheap (materials used) and poorly constructed adapter.
From personal experience I would say there are many of those around :xf_frown:

Pigtail adapters can have their advantages over one-piece adapters from a mechanical perspective; the latter can put significantly more mechanical strain on the device's connector depending on what your adapting.

Particularly bad in this respect are one-piece adapters to fit a 6.35mm headphone plug into a 3.5mm headphone socket, i.e. one of these:

6d35mm_to_3d5mm_adapter.jpg


Once you add the length of the 6.35mm headphone plug itself on top of that, the strain on the 3.5mm socket in the device is significant if the cable gets tugged sideways. On some poorly designed devices only a few tiny solder connections hold that poor socket in place...

Then you are better of with one of the pigtail equivalents like the one below, at least from a mechanical strain perspective:

6d35mm_to_3d5mm_adapter_pigtail.jpg
 
May 19, 2025 at 3:11 PM Post #442 of 731
The problem is that the degradation in sound that’s described doesn’t sound like anything a cheap adapter could cause. Lack of sparkle, smeared micro details, sloppy dynamics and a veil over the sound are all descriptions of expectation bias, not a bad connector. If the sound was crackling and cutting out, ok. But a bad connector isn’t subtle. It either works or it doesn’t.
 
Last edited:
May 19, 2025 at 3:24 PM Post #443 of 731
The problem is that the degradation in sound that’s described doesn’t sound like anything a cheap adapter could cause. Lack of sparkle, smeared micro details, sloppy dynamics and a veil over the sound are all descriptions of expectation bias, not a bad connector. If the sound was crackling and cutting out, ok. But a bad connector isn’t subtle. It either works or it doesn’t.

IMHO, a good test would be a DBT ABX test between covered/stealthed aftermarket short pigtail adapter with OCC Type 6 Litz GPS + GP(Au-S alloy) cable inside against a $2 short pigtail adapter. Also, IEM would be the classic Campfire Audio Andromeda. Adapter looks identical on outside. This should end the debate IMHO if 18/20 correct/incorrect guesses are met
 
May 19, 2025 at 3:56 PM Post #444 of 731
IMHO, a good test would be a DBT ABX test between covered/stealthed aftermarket short pigtail adapter with OCC Type 6 Litz GPS + GP(Au-S alloy) cable inside against a $2 short pigtail adapter. Also, IEM would be the classic Campfire Audio Andromeda. Adapter looks identical on outside. This should end the debate IMHO if 18/20 correct/incorrect guesses are met

That is intentionally choosing an IEM that is potentially going to change sound due to its impedance sensitivity.

You could save the test time and just measure the resistance of the adapters, that would tell you the same thing, or measure the frequency response of the IEM with each adapter.

Isn’t the question more sensibly about apparent sonic changes due to a few inches of wire and a few extra mechanical contact points versus using the correct termination for the amplifier not the resistance of the adapters ?

People get all concerned about extra mechanical contact points with an adapter but don’t seem to stop to consider just how many already exist in an audio system.

Even a basic IEM set up with balanced 4.4mm connections using a digital source via USB to DAC then 4.4mm out to the 4.4mm line in of an amplifier and the 4.4mm headphone out will have eight per cable so 24 in total, assuming four pins are used for audio and power in the USB, I think that is right, maybe more ?

There are potentially additional contact points inside each device in the form of switches.

If you add an adapter you add four more, where is the immediately obvious problem adding four mechanical contact points when your simple set up already has at least 24 ?
 
Last edited:
May 19, 2025 at 4:31 PM Post #445 of 731
Contact points can have their issues (dirt or oxidisation), so I would agree with @Ryokan that fewer is better.

But the usual problems are one of high impedance on a poor contact, and that's not going to result in the issues some describe here as @bigshot already pointed out.

Worst offender in my experience are cheap one-piece adapters that have a stacked internal construction with one rivet (very common on cheap 3.5mm/6.35mm adapters). Over time that central rivet on the cheap ones can develop some slack an give issues with continuity. But that's an obvious fault resulting in a cackling or intermittent sound or L/R imbalance, and not an audiophile fidelity issue.
 
May 19, 2025 at 5:18 PM Post #446 of 731
IMHO, a good test would be a DBT ABX test between covered/stealthed aftermarket short pigtail adapter with OCC Type 6 Litz GPS + GP(Au-S alloy) cable inside against a $2 short pigtail adapter. Also, IEM would be the classic Campfire Audio Andromeda. Adapter looks identical on outside. This should end the debate IMHO if 18/20 correct/incorrect guesses are met
Go do it. I know enough about how home audio works to know what the outcome will be, so I’m not going to do it. And it isn’t my job to convince you. So you can do your due diligence yourself. If you really want to know, you’ll make an effort to know. But I haven’t seen you make any effort yet.
 
Last edited:
May 19, 2025 at 9:03 PM Post #447 of 731
IMHO, a good test would be a DBT ABX test between covered/stealthed aftermarket short pigtail adapter with OCC Type 6 Litz GPS + GP(Au-S alloy) cable inside against a $2 short pigtail adapter. Also, IEM would be the classic Campfire Audio Andromeda. Adapter looks identical on outside. This should end the debate IMHO if 18/20 correct/incorrect guesses are met
Why stop there? Why not a 12 conductor Litz braided continuous cast 7N copper adapter? Ironically that’s where Campfire Audio got its start: as a company making ridiculous iPod docks that connected insane numbers of wires (and some enormous oil filled capacitors) to the 13 pin connectors on old school iPods to act as an audio line out. His business was called ALO Audio then (Audio Line Out, literally) and I do remember them being more expensive than the iPod itself lmao.
 
May 19, 2025 at 10:08 PM Post #448 of 731
Why stop there? Why not a 12 conductor Litz braided continuous cast 7N copper adapter? Ironically that’s where Campfire Audio got its start: as a company making ridiculous iPod docks that connected insane numbers of wires (and some enormous oil filled capacitors) to the 13 pin connectors on old school iPods to act as an audio line out. His business was called ALO Audio then (Audio Line Out, literally) and I do remember them being more expensive than the iPod itself lmao.

12 conductors only seems pretty small. Usually there's about 500-1000 strands of enameled wires on a typical 8 "conductor" Litz braid. FWIW, I never liked the ALO stock cables. My proposal is actually way more exotic than just 7N copper. I'm referring to OCC Type 6 Litz GPS + GP Au-Ag alloy which usually cost about 3K for a meter for an IEM cable
 
Last edited:
May 19, 2025 at 11:17 PM Post #449 of 731
12 conductors only seems pretty small. Usually there's about 500-1000 strands of enameled wires on a typical 8 "conductor" Litz braid. FWIW, I never liked the ALO stock cables. My proposal is actually way more exotic than just 7N copper. I'm referring to OCC Type 6 Litz GPS + GP Au-S alloy which usually cost about 3K for a meter for an IEM cable
🤦‍♂️ what an absolutely shocking ripoff. What the hell is Au-S? Are they mixing gold and sulfur? Or is it gold plated silver and since no one at the company has anything approaching a degree in any sciences they branded it “Au-S”? Do you think that’s weird that the company selling you a $3000 wire doesn’t know what the chemical symbol for silver is?
 
May 19, 2025 at 11:19 PM Post #450 of 731
🤦‍♂️ what an absolutely shocking ripoff. What the hell is Au-S? Are they mixing gold and sulfur? Or is it gold plated silver and since no one at the company has anything approaching a degree in any sciences they branded it “Au-S”? Do you think that’s weird that the company selling you a $3000 wire doesn’t know what the chemical symbol for silver is?

Apologies. It's Au-Ag alloy conductors. So it's gold plated gold-silver alloy :)
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top