[cjl]

and if capturing that tiny detail that can differentiate between live and "recording" requires so and so much resolution>file size - so be it.

But it doesn't.
 
Every tiny detail that can differentiate between live and recording can be captured by a sample rate of 44-48kHz, and similarly, a bit depth of 16-18 bits.

 

[castleofargh]

 

and if capturing that tiny detail that can differentiate between live and "recording" requires so and so much resolution>file size - so be it.

But it doesn't.
 
Every tiny detail that can differentiate between live and recording can be captured by a sample rate of 44-48kHz, and similarly, a bit depth of 16-18 bits.

remember that analogsurviver wants all his ultrasounds. on all topics we go in circle because of this.

 

[bigshot]

Inaudible is inaudible.

 

[Greenears]

But it doesn't.

Every tiny detail that can differentiate between live and recording can be captured by a sample rate of 44-48kHz, and similarly, a bit depth of 16-18 bits.

Cjl do you have any reference paper for this 18 bit? I actually came to the same conclusion but it is hard to find a well written paper on it.

 

[analogsurviver]

Cjl do you have any reference paper for this 18 bit? I actually came to the same conclusion but it is hard to find a well written paper on it.

It is going hard to get a well written paper on audibility of > 16 bit audio for playback. There is godzillion of mechanisms that are all, in isolation or combined, capable of overshadowing >16 bit for playback.
 
One thing that DOES have a profound effect on perceived sonics - and particularly dynamic range - is the output impedance of the "DAC" . If the output impedance of this "DAC" (or whatever) powering the final amplifier is high, that "DAC" can have in theory infinite dynamic range - but will in practice be limited by the said output impedance.
 
Some of the better DACs and CD/SACD players feature really low output impedances - below 5 ohms, at times below 1 ohm. For a reason !

 

[Bytor123]

  Inaudible is inaudible.

Hear hear!

 

[Greenears]

It is going hard to get a well written paper on audibility of > 16 bit audio for playback. There is godzillion of mechanisms that are all, in isolation or combined, capable of overshadowing >16 bit for playback.

One thing that DOES have a profound effect on perceived sonics - and particularly dynamic range - is the output impedance of the "DAC" . If the output impedance of this "DAC" (or whatever) powering the final amplifier is high, that "DAC" can have in theory infinite dynamic range - but will in practice be limited by the said output impedance.

Some of the better DACs and CD/SACD players feature really low output impedances - below 5 ohms, at times below 1 ohm. For a reason !

A power amp should have a high impedance voltage mode input 1k ohm or greater. Why would it matter if the dac out is 10 or 1 ohm?

 

[analogsurviver]

A power amp should have a high impedance voltage mode input 1k ohm or greater. Why would it matter if the dac out is 10 or 1 ohm?

Ok - it depends from combination to combination.
 
One amplifier that is EXTREMELY sensitive to this is Stax SRM1MK2. It has input impedance of 47 kohm - it should not present any problem. IN THEORY.
 
Believe me, it was NOT my pleasure to basically tar and feather a prototype phono stage of my good friend, for whom I know he did his best given the budget.  I did go to other places using other amplifiers for the rear end - and the phono stage, although not stellar, was more than acceptable. Using ANY of my turntables/cartridges/arms, when called upon to drive the SRM1MK2, it collapsed into something soooooo boring I would not consider listening to a single LP side with it. Lifeless, dead. Period. In this combination, at least.
 
This SRM1MK2 will unearth dynamic range differences in CD players, DACs , etc - mercilessly so. I will say which "DAC" is OK in this regard - it is the DAC section of the Technics SU-A60 preamplifier. By now, it is rare - it is from 1986 or so. http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/technics/su-a60.shtml I knew this DAC is something special the minute I upon returning from recording a piano recital to CD-R, listened at home with this DAC. Wow!!! - it did provide for better dynamic range than I heard during CD-R monitoring during the concert - but it was raw, harsh and unacceptable for long listening sessions. 
 
Full restoration and upgrade/modification was needed in order to get the SU-A60 to listening fatigue free device. With an even better dynamic range than in stock form. It also carries one of the most undetectable tone controls out there - it will not change the character of the sound as it is usual with tone controls, only the timbre - as it should. Please see the User and Service Manuals - it can be patched/used in MANY ways - and its line section is one of the few that are actually better in the circuit than left out - can be done at a flick of a switch. There is NO electrolytic capacitor used in the modified unit - nowhere in the audio path. Not something for bean counters - it would give them heart attack on spot.
 
Trouble - it can only do up to 48 kHz/claimed 18 bit - ( Adrian Kingston http://adrian-kingston.com/SE-A3MK2.htm mentions the DAC of the SU-A60 "somewhere" in his pages as 16 bit device IIRC ) - be it as it may, it does sound good with Redbook. When compared to Asus Xonar Essence One, Asus lasted mere seconds - it is sooooo boring and uninvolving and un-whatever in comparison to a well modified SU-A60. Spare me the ABX sermon - Asus would NEVER pass as something approaching live sound - repeat, NEVER. Into ANY amplifier. Even to a panel of 70+ old women to whom audio SQ is not only the least important thing in universe, but beyond comprehension altogether.  
 
So big can be differences - played from the same WAV ... - raw master that I recorded and for 100% can guarantee it was not tampered with in any way.
 
Despite Asus on paper being superiour and younger by - almost three decades...

 

[Greenears]

  Ok - it depends from combination to combination.
 
One amplifier that is EXTREMELY sensitive to this is Stax SRM1MK2. It has input impedance of 47 kohm - it should not present any problem. IN THEORY.
 
Believe me, it was NOT my pleasure to basically tar and feather a prototype phono stage of my good friend, for whom I know he did his best given the budget.  I did go to other places using other amplifiers for the rear end - and the phono stage, although not stellar, was more than acceptable. Using ANY of my turntables/cartridges/arms, when called upon to drive the SRM1MK2, it collapsed into something soooooo boring I would not consider listening to a single LP side with it. Lifeless, dead. Period. In this combination, at least.
 
This SRM1MK2 will unearth dynamic range differences in CD players, DACs , etc - mercilessly so. I will say which "DAC" is OK in this regard - it is the DAC section of the Technics SU-A60 preamplifier. By now, it is rare - it is from 1986 or so. http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/technics/su-a60.shtml I knew this DAC is something special the minute I upon returning from recording a piano recital to CD-R, listened at home with this DAC. Wow!!! - it did provide for better dynamic range than I heard during CD-R monitoring during the concert - but it was raw, harsh and unacceptable for long listening sessions. 
 
Full restoration and upgrade/modification was needed in order to get the SU-A60 to listening fatigue free device. With an even better dynamic range than in stock form. It also carries one of the most undetectable tone controls out there - it will not change the character of the sound as it is usual with tone controls, only the timbre - as it should. Please see the User and Service Manuals - it can be patched/used in MANY ways - and its line section is one of the few that are actually better in the circuit than left out - can be done at a flick of a switch. There is NO electrolytic capacitor used in the modified unit - nowhere in the audio path. Not something for bean counters - it would give them heart attack on spot.
 
Trouble - it can only do up to 48 kHz/claimed 18 bit - ( Adrian Kingston http://adrian-kingston.com/SE-A3MK2.htm mentions the DAC of the SU-A60 "somewhere" in his pages as 16 bit device IIRC ) - be it as it may, it does sound good with Redbook. When compared to Asus Xonar Essence One, Asus lasted mere seconds - it is sooooo boring and uninvolving and un-whatever in comparison to a well modified SU-A60. Spare me the ABX sermon - Asus would NEVER pass as something approaching live sound - repeat, NEVER. Into ANY amplifier. Even to a panel of 70+ old women to whom audio SQ is not only the least important thing in universe, but beyond comprehension altogether.  
 
So big can be differences - played from the same WAV ... - raw master that I recorded and for 100% can guarantee it was not tampered with in any way.
 
Despite Asus on paper being superiour and younger by - almost three decades...

Sorry this is all very interesting and I think you clearly have an equipment issue to deal with.  But you haven't explained what it has to do with DAC output impedance of 1 or 10 ohm? Unless you are saying the 47k input is not correctly specified and there is a frequency dependent issue where the input impedance drops drastically to the point you can hear the difference of 1 or 10 ohm.  Maybe it's just an AC coupling thing?
 
So fix the amp?  DACs are not power stages they shouldn't have very low output impedance, and even if they have it, it will not be linear if you draw too much current.  Standard line out is 100-600 ohms or so if I remember correctly, I say aim for 300 and let it drift a bit at the corners and you are done.  If a load is bust don't blame the source, and verse vica. 
 
We are talking line out here right - like your red and white RCA connectors.  Not a headphone jack whether 3.5 or 1/4 inch - that is a power stage.

 

[analogsurviver]

 
Sorry this is all very interesting and I think you clearly have an equipment issue to deal with.  But you haven't explained what it has to do with DAC output impedance of 1 or 10 ohm? Unless you are saying the 47k input is not correctly specified and there is a frequency dependent issue where the input impedance drops drastically to the point you can hear the difference of 1 or 10 ohm.  Maybe it's just an AC coupling thing?
 
So fix the amp?  DACs are not power stages they shouldn't have very low output impedance, and even if they have it, it will not be linear if you draw too much current.  Standard line out is 100-600 ohms or so if I remember correctly, I say aim for 300 and let it drift a bit at the corners and you are done.  If a load is bust don't blame the source, and verse vica. 
 
We are talking line out here right - like your red and white RCA connectors.  Not a headphone jack whether 3.5 or 1/4 inch - that is a power stage.

Sorry, although I do fully understand what you are referring to, my experience is that , in case it is available, headphone jack usually wins in dynamic range. Even into pure 47 kohm and lowest capacitance cable I can find.
 
I am "married" forever to the AGI 511 preamplifier ( line stage, even more so its unique phono stage ) - it has the flattest/broadest frequency response - BY FAR, orders of magnitude better than the rest - and it is certified for the operation into 600 ohms. It is OK with dynamic range of analog record (approx 80 dB max ) - yet it can not compete in dynamic range with the Technics SU-A60 ( regardless if in stock or modified condition ) using really dynamic PCM up to 48 kHz - or output from a DSD device. Into ANY amplifier.
 
I will have to look into the Stax amp - hunch is that there is some (MOS?)FETs that could be nasty hard to drive at high frequencies - similar fallacy as in the days of MOS FET power amps, where manufacturers were claiming they are near equivalents of tubes - quietly omitting the fact that input of MOS FET presents a HUGE capacitance, made even worse by the fact that P and N channel devices were quite different - requiring to add additional capacitance across the input of either N or P ( forgot which, 20 + years ago ) device(s) - and THAT combined load required de facto driver that was not that much smaller power amp in itself as the output stage - amounting to sometimes 50% of the power rating of the actual output solely for the driver. That is why MOS FET amps exceeding say 120 W/ch are so rare - the driver for the output devices becomes unmanageable. There was a solution - TNT series of amps from Acoustat, later acquired by Hafler, with different topology - which was patented and could not be used cost effectively by others. 
 
Ifi audio nano iDSD has both 3.5 and RCA outputs - but they are EXACTLY THE SAME. Only function of the phones jack is to disconnect the RCAs whenever phones plug is inserted - otherwise, the very same circuit. You can bet it does not have trouble with dynamics ! 
 
Somehere "in between" is the output from Korg MR 1 DSD recorder. There are separate 3.5 jacks for the line and phones - powered by the same IC, volume controlled by the same "pot" (it is a digital IC attenuator ). I will have to look again, but I suspect line out is nothing but a series resistor added in order to reduce any effects of capacitance of the interconnect cable and amp input capacitance. Resulting me preferring the sound of MR1 into some devices via line - and others via phones out - output. 
 
Oh well...

 

[Maxx134]

I had to skip about 4 pages of back and forth schiit to tell you guys your all barking up the wrong tree because the real issue is not loudness or dynamic range, the real benifit we want and need is the noise floor lowering. ..

That way we can hear the breath of musicians and movements of the surrounding air of soundstage and to make matters worse,
We need competent dacs to pick up this info without "making up" and interpretating with filters...
we need as much digital info as possible to capture sonic details of real life,
Unless your ok with simple fake sounds and fake ass surround systems.
Its all in the details

 

[Maxx134]

so if I follow you argument, I need a oven to eat bread.

Yes if your demanding and want the "whole loaf", not some part of it ..

 

[limpidglitch]

I've always wanted to hear the sound of two air molecules colliding. (Well, I say 'collide', but they never really touch, so is it a collision? Then again, nothing really touches anything, it's all just charges, so do collisions exist at all? Will the insurance company accept such an excuse?)
I wonder if two O₂ molecules and two N₂ molecules colliding* will sound different. Theoretically, yes, but do we really know?

Can you make me such an ADC and microphone?
 
*see discussion above

 

[analogsurviver]

  I've always wanted to hear the sound of two air molecules colliding. (Well, I say 'collide', but they never really touch, so is it a collision? Then again, nothing really touches anything, it's all just charges, so do collisions exist at all? Will the insurance company accept such an excuse?)
I wonder if two O₂ molecules and two N₂ molecules colliding* will sound different. Theoretically, yes, but do we really know?

Can you make me such an ADC and microphone?
 
*see discussion above

*Probably* yes. I have to go again trough the book of Neumann microphones - IIRC, their lowest noise microphone should be in this range. ADC is less of a problem - but that still does not mean it is easy to make such a thing.
 
However, it has nothing to do with any normal music. I divide conductors to "good" and "bad" - on the grounds of their - clothing... During the rehearsal, they are usually "good" - wearing leisure clothes that usually are "noiseless". Come concert, they will be "in war paints" - with tuxedo, shirts, trousers, shoes, (in case of women jewelry ) all "oversound" any reasonable low noise microphone - becoming "bad". I know they have to "wave" the most in some intense quiet passages, giving the orchestra/singers necessary cues - but it is horrible sounding on a recording. FAR more noisier than the noise of the air (or 0 or N ) molecules colliding  ...

 

[bigshot]

You guys should just listen to the music and ignore the rest!