[KPzypher]

At some point diminishing returns must kick in. And from what I can tell most companies buy ba's from Knowles or have them tune it in a particular way. So I wonder how much "research" these companies are actually doing.

This is my biggest gripe. Companies cramming bazillion off the shelf BA drivers or variation of bazillion hybrid drivers w/ poor crossovers into an IEM than charging >1K~3K. Then they shell it in a shiny resin with some fancy packaging, then voila! Sprinkle the forum with some glowing reviews, then you have a masterpiece. No substantive research or thoughtful engineering. Not saying all are snakeoil, but too many of those are out there.

 

[LaughMoreDaily]

High end (mostly Western brands) have marketing, R&D, licensing and labour costs, they can't compete nowadays in the IEM budget-midfi level with CHIFI for price to performance ratio. Maybe headphones wise, the western brands are still king, but CHIFI will catch up soon. QC problems may come with budget CHIFI, but as above, even western brands have QC problems, so just buy them from somewhere like Amazon with a robust returns policy. Even if one cheap CHIFI dies, maybe u can buy 9 more pairs and it might not even be the same price as a western IEM of the same sound quality.

In this covid economy, I have a feeling some of the premium established brands may get a big shock, as audio stuff may be considered "discretionary" spending, and perhaps folks will go for price to performance at the CHIFI segment.

I've spent quite a bit of money on Chifi, I bought a ton of iems from Audiobudget reviews and also threads here. I've come to now realize they were generally a waste of money, I was buying mainly in the below $50 segment.

I recently bought a couple pairs of Sony earphones (as I was tired of throwing $100 a month on Chifi) they are: Sony MDR-XB50AP and Sony MDR-EX110AP.

I paid $40 for the XB50 (now $32CAN on Amazon) and $25 for the EX110AP.

They beat all the KZ's I bought (15 pairs), all the TRN's, all the earbuds... and many other other branded Chifi iems. Chifi can be a "rip off" (uncompetitive) too.

Look at what I spent on these, $65. I spent $500+ on Chifi and THESE ARE BETTER.

I was recently kicked out of a biased Chifi group on Facebook for stating this opinion. It doesn't matter to me. Look at the money I saved.

With that being said, I still like Chifi and will "invest" in Chifi. I just bought the LZ A6 Mini on Ali for $45US. My first purchase since like February.

 

[IEMusic]

This is my biggest gripe. Companies cramming bazillion off the shelf BA drivers or variation of bazillion hybrid drivers w/ poor crossovers into an IEM than charging >1K~3K. Then they shell it in a shiny resin with some fancy packaging, then voila! Sprinkle the forum with some glowing reviews, then you have a masterpiece. No substantive research or thoughtful engineering. Not saying all are snakeoil, but too many of those are out there.

At least with budget Chi-Fi, you can accept a ”throw spaghetti against the wall and see what sticks” approach, but not when one is charging a few thousand dollars for that item. I think small boutique companies span the gamut from snake oil to spectacular, whereas more established companies are much more buffered.

 

[IEMusic]

I've spent quite a bit of money on Chifi, I bought a ton of iems from Audiobudget reviews and also threads here. I've come to now realize they were generally a waste of money, I was buying mainly in the below $50 segment.

I recently bought a couple pairs of Sony earphones (as I was tired of throwing $100 a month on Chifi) they are: Sony MDR-XB50AP and Sony MDR-EX110AP.

I paid $40 for the XB50 (now $32CAN on Amazon) and $25 for the EX110AP.

They beat all the KZ's I bought (15 pairs), all the TRN's, all the earbuds... and many other other branded Chifi iems. Chifi can be a "rip off" (uncompetitive) too.

Look at what I spent on these, $65. I spent $500+ on Chifi and THESE ARE BETTER.

I was recently kicked out of a biased Chifi group on Facebook for stating this opinion. It doesn't matter to me. Look at the money I saved.

With that being said, I still like Chifi and will "invest" in Chifi. I just bought the LZ A6 Mini on Ali for $45US. My first purchase since like February.

I agree that one can easily waste a ton of money on mediocre Chi-Fi products if one is not careful. The items each seem inexpensive, but there is a new shiny object every other day, so it adds up very quickly.

 

[Colors]

“Chifi is better. Cheaper, better value. Western companies spend too much on R&D, QC, production, marketing, customer service, health and safety, etc.”

Then also,

“Why are there no jobs??”

 

[LaughMoreDaily]

I agree that one can easily waste a ton of money on mediocre Chi-Fi products if one is not careful. The items each seem inexpensive, but there is a new shiny object every other day, so it adds up very quickly.

And, all the biased reviewers/consumers out there brainwashed by cheap Chifi products. I won't name names. People need to start thinking of quality audio products and not price.

 

[Hammerburst]

I just disagree that many of these companies are sketchy. Also, ad-hominem? I never said anything about you personally or attacked you in the slightest. You said small companies are sketchy to you. That seems like you meant all. Again really not sure how you twisted it into thinking that was a personal attack.

Right, this is America, we are free to say what is on our minds, and shouldn't have to worry about it. Your statements did have an ad-hominem, undercurrent. You were attempting to paint me in a certain way, in order to strengthen your position, which is against mine. Make me seem like an irrational, "black and white" type of person, which is not the truth. I mean, you can play unaware about it, but just know, that style of discussion, will irritate many people.

The statement, "small companies are sketchy to me", doesn't mean every one of them. It is similar to one having a mistrust of something, until proven wrong. For example, I wouldn't think a Kia or Hyundai, could make it to over 300,000 miles, on original engine and transmission, with routine maintenance, similar to a good Toyota. Yet, there are probably some Kia's and Hyundai's, that have accomplished this feat.

Anyway, you can believe what you want about these companies. I'm not trying to change your mind. You were the one that was "startin it up" with me, now you wanna "take the high road", lol, and act like you didn't instigate anything. People crack me up. We can agree to disagree.

 

[baskingshark]

I've spent quite a bit of money on Chifi, I bought a ton of iems from Audiobudget reviews and also threads here. I've come to now realize they were generally a waste of money, I was buying mainly in the below $50 segment.

I recently bought a couple pairs of Sony earphones (as I was tired of throwing $100 a month on Chifi) they are: Sony MDR-XB50AP and Sony MDR-EX110AP.

I paid $40 for the XB50 (now $32CAN on Amazon) and $25 for the EX110AP.

They beat all the KZ's I bought (15 pairs), all the TRN's, all the earbuds... and many other other branded Chifi iems. Chifi can be a "rip off" (uncompetitive) too.

Look at what I spent on these, $65. I spent $500+ on Chifi and THESE ARE BETTER.

I was recently kicked out of a biased Chifi group on Facebook for stating this opinion. It doesn't matter to me. Look at the money I saved.

With that being said, I still like Chifi and will "invest" in Chifi. I just bought the LZ A6 Mini on Ali for $45US. My first purchase since like February.

I agree that one can easily waste a ton of money on mediocre Chi-Fi products if one is not careful. The items each seem inexpensive, but there is a new shiny object every other day, so it adds up very quickly.

Good points.

Agree that there are mediocre CHIFI out there, we need to sift the gems from the turd sometimes. And some companies (eg KZ, TRN) sometimes go down the route of the driver nuclear arms race in stuffing as much drivers inside the shell as possible, with tuning not matching the driver count. And definitely agree that it is easy to fall into the trap of buying tons of budget sidegrades or marginal upgrades. They add up to a midfi or TOTL set soon enough. I've spent about $2K+ USD on CHIFI haha, maybe could have gotten one or two nice TOTL boutique gear with that cash.

What I feel is those cheap CHIFI sets are useful to see what sound signature u like, then upgrade from there and go up the ladder (though as per this hobby, there are big diminishing returns the higher u go up). Just 3 years back, it would cost minimum $100 USD for a single driver western set, or $200 - 300 USD for a multi driver western set. Nowadays u can get a multi driver CHIFI for $20ish USD or less, with decent sound quality. In this covid economy too, I don't think a lot can afford to purchase summitFI equipment, so at least the cheap CHIFI give a small taste of this hobby for cheap.

FWIW, I've compared some midfi western stuff I own with CHIFI and they are not too far away in performance, maybe even the CHIFI sets costing ~ 10% of the price can overtake or at least match them in sound quality. Eg. Audiosense DT200 ($100ish USD) is almost the same as my Westone W30 ($400 USD). BLON BL-03 ($25 USD) is almost the same as the Sennheiser IE80S (I got mine at around $200ish USD). KZ ZS10 Pro ($30 USD) is almost the same as my Westone 3 ($200ish USD). These western sets are mostly made in China too anyway, short of maybe some TOTL brands that are handmade in Germany or elsewhere.



Anyways, it seems even boutique brands use Bellsing drivers: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/cxqlje/knowles_files_claim_with_us_trade_commission_to/
There's a lawsuit going on now from Knowles suing Bellsing (Chinese brand) for copying their stuff. Ethics are definitely an issue with CHIFI sometimes, big can of worms. Like the KZ ZS6 looks like a Campfire Andromeda! But anyways ethics aside, the lawsuit apparently released some info that some TOTL brands use Bellsings in their IEMs eg Campfire, J&H, CTM.

QC is also an issue for TOTL brands, like the Campfire solaris seems to have unit variance among units: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/campfire-solaris.891180/page-178#post-14680087


At the end of the day, I guess different strokes for different folks, we all are united in our love for music. We get to audio nirvana via different means (be it TOTL summitFI gear or via cheap CHIFI costing $20). As long as we spend within our comfortable limits, especially in this covid economy!

 

[zenki]

Coming from.the car scene with manufacturing background (machinist), there are multiple types of people/businesses that fall under catagories.

1. True tuners: This group covers people who have an obsession. They spend day and night getting their product to the closest of perfection. Some may lose their minds in the process. On product release, these are the folks that hound manufacturing into tighter than average tolerances and push their obsessive perfection ideology on others (I get to work with these folks and they are frustrating, no doubt).
2. Tooners: The tinkerers out there. They give risk the middle finger and don't mind things blowing up in their faces. While their attention to detail isn't with the tuners, every blue moon they get lucky and normally in a spectacular way. I consider a lot of Chi-fi floating in this group.
3. Industry heavy trend setters: This group built a name reputation, whether on a good product in the past or a massive budget in marketing. I'm not going to name names, but you know these folks quite well. They have borderline unlimited budgets for research and development but purposely dial back their products to allow for incremental improvements in the future.
4. The scam artists: The worst of all group, the ones that purposely go in to a field only to screw it all up and bring trust down them with. These folks are solely in it for themselves and seek money and or power. All industries get a taste of these losers.

With all that said, there are winners and losers out there and price rarely defines them.

Please do tell who's in category 1.
PM's not a problem

 

[alvinlim2010]

Good points.

Agree that there are mediocre CHIFI out there, we need to sift the gems from the turd sometimes. And some companies (eg KZ, TRN) sometimes go down the route of the driver nuclear arms race in stuffing as much drivers inside the shell as possible, with tuning not matching the driver count. And definitely agree that it is easy to fall into the trap of buying tons of budget sidegrades or marginal upgrades. They add up to a midfi or TOTL set soon enough. I've spent about $2K+ USD on CHIFI haha, maybe could have gotten one or two nice TOTL boutique gear with that cash.

What I feel is those cheap CHIFI sets are useful to see what sound signature u like, then upgrade from there and go up the ladder (though as per this hobby, there are big diminishing returns the higher u go up). Just 3 years back, it would cost minimum $100 USD for a single driver western set, or $200 - 300 USD for a multi driver western set. Nowadays u can get a multi driver CHIFI for $20ish USD or less, with decent sound quality. In this covid economy too, I don't think a lot can afford to purchase summitFI equipment, so at least the cheap CHIFI give a small taste of this hobby for cheap.

FWIW, I've compared some midfi western stuff I own with CHIFI and they are not too far away in performance, maybe even the CHIFI sets costing ~ 10% of the price can overtake or at least match them in sound quality. Eg. Audiosense DT200 ($100ish USD) is almost the same as my Westone W30 ($400 USD). BLON BL-03 ($25 USD) is almost the same as the Sennheiser IE80S (I got mine at around $200ish USD). KZ ZS10 Pro ($30 USD) is almost the same as my Westone 3 ($200ish USD). These western sets are mostly made in China too anyway, short of maybe some TOTL brands that are handmade in Germany or elsewhere.



Anyways, it seems even boutique brands use Bellsing drivers: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/cxqlje/knowles_files_claim_with_us_trade_commission_to/
There's a lawsuit going on now from Knowles suing Bellsing (Chinese brand) for copying their stuff. Ethics are definitely an issue with CHIFI sometimes, big can of worms. Like the KZ ZS6 looks like a Campfire Andromeda! But anyways ethics aside, the lawsuit apparently released some info that some TOTL brands use Bellsings in their IEMs eg Campfire, J&H, CTM.

QC is also an issue for TOTL brands, like the Campfire solaris seems to have unit variance among units: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/campfire-solaris.891180/page-178#post-14680087


At the end of the day, I guess different strokes for different folks, we all are united in our love for music. We get to audio nirvana via different means (be it TOTL summitFI gear or via cheap CHIFI costing $20). As long as we spend within our comfortable limits, especially in this covid economy!

Well those KZ and TRN are good for real beginners to figure out what kind of tuning they prefer. I went through that route too, as it is relatively less expensive. Once you figure out what sticks for you, then it is recommended to go above the $100 tier to further trim your preferences. Of course once you pass a certain tier (to me i would say about the $500 - $800 tier), then the law of diminishing returns will kick in hard. At that point the differences will be relatively minor once you know what you are looking for.

 

[IEMusic]

Basically, I think there is definitely a place for Chi-Fi (of all levels), established (usually more Western) brands, and boutique brands. All three categories have diamonds (some in the rough) and all three have snake oil. The most important thing is sorting out the bad stuff, and that’s where Head-fi has been an invaluable tool. Without it, it’s very easy to fall prey to marketing verbiage and shiny objects. It seems the best bang for you buck usually comes from ChiFi, whereas the best of the best typically comes from pricier established and “boutique” brands. The best usually involves a lot of diminishing returns though, so it’s everyone’s individual decision where their money is better spent.

Side note, the ”boutique” brands tend to manufacture their products in the country their based in, while the established larger companies tend to make their stuff in China, except for the TOTL stuff.

 

[mashuto]

I had a much longer response initially typed up yesterday, but was hoping that you would take the cue and drop it too, guess not.

Anyway, you can believe what you want about these companies. I'm not trying to change your mind. You were the one that was "startin it up" with me, now you wanna "take the high road", lol, and act like you didn't instigate anything. People crack me up. We can agree to disagree.

This wasn't about taking the high road, it was about avoiding the discussing turning into what I feel like it already turned into. So lets see, we can agree to disagree, sure. Absolutely. But also I was "startin it up"? I simply responded to on of your posts with opinions. Am I not allowed to do that?

Right, this is America, we are free to say what is on our minds, and shouldn't have to worry about it. Your statements did have an ad-hominem, undercurrent. You were attempting to paint me in a certain way, in order to strengthen your position, which is against mine. Make me seem like an irrational, "black and white" type of person, which is not the truth. I mean, you can play unaware about it, but just know, that style of discussion, will irritate many people.

I really wasn't attempting to paint you in any way. I was responding to the things you specifically wrote. I may have interpreted your words in a way you didn't mean, but I absolutely did not attack you personally or say anything about you. If you took that as some kind of ad-hominem attack, thats really on you.

The truth is, I have seen posts like this before. They are often thinly veiled attempts to call out people for spending money on this hobby and to try and prove a point. I perceived that you were taking it in that direction so my initial post was just me explaining how I viewed things. I am happy to admit when I was wrong, but again, I was not attacking you or doing any of these things you describe. You accuse me of twisting your words? You read so much more meaning into my post than I ever did on yours... wow.

I want to point you back to your own posts.

Small/boutique companies are sketchy to me. Many of them are basically con-artists, out for your money.

Sure, Ill give you this. You said many, not all. But do you really not see how that can be taken as blanket statement here?

Maybe cut me some slack for interpreting your posts as I did, epsecially because it wasnt the only post where you said something similar.

I listened to a pair of Unique Melody 3DD-TI, with "new improved titanium drivers", lol. They had a retail price of $1100...and sounded bad. Here, the OP tells us a good story about Bowers and Wilkinson. Overpriced B&W P5's, that failed after 2 months. They had sketchy soldering inside, and mediocre design. There it is. This stuff doesn't surprise me, and there is much more, where that came from. People should be talking about BS like this, and exposing these ripoffs. People who know about the shoddiness of these products, yet deny the problem, must have ulterior motives.

You quote one product and one issue here and again apply it to your viewpoint that boutique companies are sketchy. Again I dont think its much of a stretch to think you mean that all (or most) boutique products are sketchy.

And then do you really not see how your last line there could very easily be taken to mean that you are essentially accusing many many people of being shills for hiding how crappy these products all are?

I get it, you were speaking about one particular product (though you do say there is much more), and you are specifically talking about hiding broken stuff for sales. But again, I really dont think I am making much of a leap, and if you dont see why your posts may have rubbed me in the wrong way, then I would direct you back to your whole ad-hominem undercurrent thingy you described earlier, because thats kind of the vibe I get from you.

And then you said this...

More of the same. Clearly, I did not take my argument to that level, "anyone who disagrees"? Where did that come from? Do you have an agenda here?

Oh ok, now you are accusing me of having an agenda. So straight up ad-hominem. Got it.

Again, I said seem like 6 times in that initial post. It should have been a dead give away that it was how I was interpreting things. You could have just come back and cleared up what you meant. Instead you attacked me, and twisted my post to somehow think it was an attack on you. And to top it off, you actually ignored the substantive stuff I said at the end, where I basically agreed that a lot of this high end boutique stuff likely isnt worth the costs they are asking. And that what I really disagree about is that I just wouldnt qualify it as a scam. While you very much seem to think it is a scam. Maybe not for all, but it seems pretty clear that you think the vast majority of boutique stuff is a scam. Maybe your definition of scam is different than mine. Maybe you qualify anything you perceive as overpriced as a scam. I dont. These are real products that exists, so that to me is not a scam. You get what you pay for, not a scam. Quality (either in build or sound) may not match your expectations for the price, and thats fine, thats your opinion.

I am also not arguing that scams dont exist. They can and do. I got caught up in one. I am also not saying shills dont exist. They do, they are out there giving everything rave reviews. But I think these cases are the exception not the rule, whereas you seem to think opposite. Thats really what this boils down to.

And I am willing to admit that the two short sentences I wrote where I interpreted your posts may have been wrong. I may have brought my personal bias into it. I can admit that that part was maybe again exaggerated (sound familiar?) and incorrect. Can you do the same?

Also, I didnt want to respond, because I am sure you will have a rebuttal for each thing I said here, and we can go back and forth forever and accomplish nothing. I tried to walk away, but I guess I failed. I really dont need to defend myself to some random internet stranger... so I kinda feel like an idiot for even trying. So, sorry anyone else who reads this.

 

[diggygun]

I listened to a pair of Unique Melody 3DD-TI, with "new improved titanium drivers", lol. They had a retail price of $1100...and sounded bad. Here, the OP tells us a good story about Bowers and Wilkinson. Overpriced B&W P5's, that failed after 2 months. They had sketchy soldering inside, and mediocre design. There it is. This stuff doesn't surprise me, and there is much more, where that came from. People should be talking about BS like this, and exposing these ripoffs. People who know about the shoddiness of these products, yet deny the problem, must have ulterior motives.

This hasn’t answered the question you quoted

 

[robstah]

Started with Chi-fi and ended up with a used pair of Prophile8s and a pair of Etymotic ER2XRs for work duty. Really have zero plans outside of this combo. The ES100 runs the Etys and a DTR1 runs the InEars. May try a CIEM in the future (would be nice to reshell my PP8s in custom), but zero plans going back to Chi-fi.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

How much should drivers for a 300 GBP pair of cans cost? There was an interesting article by an amp maker somebody linked from here a while back. I think he said the price of any component is multiplied by 10 by the time it gets into production.

Thread title about high end headphones and IEMs being mostly hype itself is a weird headline. 300 GBP can be a lot of money but it is not the price of high end gear. It's more representative of entry level gear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man