[Singapura]

I have been a fan of headphones and IEMs for many, many years and have owned and reviewed a lot of them. Singapore became a hub in the headphone scene and I went to can parties on a weekly basis. Great times with Uncle Wilson of Jaben, when the shop was still a hole-in-the-wall, crammed with nothing but audio stuff. We had a lot of discussions about price and quality and I found out that some Chinese brands make superb quality stuff for peanut prices. So much for "anything from China is bad". A few years back I became disenfranchised with the whole hype around the industry as everyone came with high end head phones or IEMs. I wasn't sure if the quality was increasing or decreasing but it wasn't fun anymore. I'm still happy with my collection of Sennheiser and Sony and I still buy a new pair once in a while but just to use, not as a hobby. The biggest example of hype and undeserved premium prices to me is Bowers and Wilkinson. I bought a pair of B&W P5 in the UK a few years back when I stilled lived in Singapore. At the time they were around 300 GBP which was at the top end of the can spectrum. Unfortunately the left driver failed after 2 months so I brought it to the main B&W representative in Singapore who told me they could not honour the warranty as I bought the P5 in the UK. I emailed B&W in the UK and they confirmed that there was no world wide warranty. They could repair it but it would cost me GBP120 plus shipping both ways. Disgusted, I wrote off the can and moved on. I no longer live in Singapore and have recently discovered the discarded P5. The left side was still dead. Since it was written off anyway, I decided to see if I could find out what was wrong with it. I removed the felt and unscrewed the metal cover. The 40mm driver was offered for $30 a piece on eBay. However, I found a pair that looked exactly the same on AliExpress for $8.50 per two(!). For that price I could give it a try, if they were trash, I could just throw the whole thing away. The drivers arrived fast and today I dropped in the left driver with a bit of soldering skill and some shoehorning. To my absolute surprise, the P5 doesn't just sound like new with the driver, it is absolutely the same sound! These are drivers that are sold for $4.50 a piece, including shipping and they are exactly the same as the ones that B&W charges 120 Pounds for. I also discovered that the soldering work inside the headphone is shoddy and that the design doesn't add anything to the sound signature of these phones. I know there are brands that take a lot more care designing their phones and I'm happy to pay a hefty price for sublime sounding phones (still love my Senn HD650s) but it pushed my even further away from "premium" brands.

 

[FastAndClean]

for money

 

[baskingshark]

I have been a fan of headphones and IEMs for many, many years and have owned and reviewed a lot of them. Singapore became a hub in the headphone scene and I went to can parties on a weekly basis. Great times with Uncle Wilson of Jaben, when the shop was still a hole-in-the-wall, crammed with nothing but audio stuff. We had a lot of discussions about price and quality and I found out that some Chinese brands make superb quality stuff for peanut prices. So much for "anything from China is bad". A few years back I became disenfranchised with the whole hype around the industry as everyone came with high end head phones or IEMs. I wasn't sure if the quality was increasing or decreasing but it wasn't fun anymore. I'm still happy with my collection of Sennheiser and Sony and I still buy a new pair once in a while but just to use, not as a hobby. The biggest example of hype and undeserved premium prices to me is Bowers and Wilkinson. I bought a pair of B&W P5 in the UK a few years back when I stilled lived in Singapore. At the time they were around 300 GBP which was at the top end of the can spectrum. Unfortunately the left driver failed after 2 months so I brought it to the main B&W representative in Singapore who told me they could not honour the warranty as I bought the P5 in the UK. I emailed B&W in the UK and they confirmed that there was no world wide warranty. They could repair it but it would cost me GBP120 plus shipping both ways. Disgusted, I wrote off the can and moved on. I no longer live in Singapore and have recently discovered the discarded P5. The left side was still dead. Since it was written off anyway, I decided to see if I could find out what was wrong with it. I removed the felt and unscrewed the metal cover. The 40mm driver was offered for $30 a piece on eBay. However, I found a pair that looked exactly the same on AliExpress for $8.50 per two(!). For that price I could give it a try, if they were trash, I could just throw the whole thing away. The drivers arrived fast and today I dropped in the left driver with a bit of soldering skill and some shoehorning. To my absolute surprise, the P5 doesn't just sound like new with the driver, it is absolutely the same sound! These are drivers that are sold for $4.50 a piece, including shipping and they are exactly the same as the ones that B&W charges 120 Pounds for. I also discovered that the soldering work inside the headphone is shoddy and that the design doesn't add anything to the sound signature of these phones. I know there are brands that take a lot more care designing their phones and I'm happy to pay a hefty price for sublime sounding phones (still love my Senn HD650s) but it pushed my even further away from "premium" brands.

I feel you friend.

I bought a few midfi westones costing about $400 USD each a few years back, they both died within a year or so despite babying them in hardcases. They died at the cable, one was non detachable, had to MMCX mod it, the other luckily could be used with another aftermarket cable.

I called Westone for the detachable one (Westone W30), they said cable issues are not under warranty, they "offered" a replacement MMCX cable at $70 USD. I found one on aliexpress for $9 USD that works fine LOL. Realized later on the Westone packaging, it was proudly written, designed in USA, made in China.

Back then, I had to sell away one IEM just to get a sample for a different IEM sound signature as they were pricey. The past 2 years, CHIFI has really saved me a lot of money by providing superb price to performance ratio in the IEM segment. Found a few CHIFI IEMs that are a fraction of my Sennheiser/Westone/Shure IEMs' price, but provide same or even better sound quality.

High end (mostly Western brands) have marketing, R&D, licensing and labour costs, they can't compete nowadays in the IEM budget-midfi level with CHIFI for price to performance ratio. Maybe headphones wise, the western brands are still king, but CHIFI will catch up soon. QC problems may come with budget CHIFI, but as above, even western brands have QC problems, so just buy them from somewhere like Amazon with a robust returns policy. Even if one cheap CHIFI dies, maybe u can buy 9 more pairs and it might not even be the same price as a western IEM of the same sound quality.

In this covid economy, I have a feeling some of the premium established brands may get a big shock, as audio stuff may be considered "discretionary" spending, and perhaps folks will go for price to performance at the CHIFI segment.

 

[purplesun]

Friend of mine's teenage daughter was saving up for her own Bowers and Wilkins. I just gave her a used Grado 60, and that was that!

 

[originalsnuffy]

I briefly owned a pair of B&W headphones (P3 maybe?). They were on sale from B&W and I had never heard them with my electronics. They were hardwired to something or other at the Apple store but I knew that this was not a real comparison. Anyway got them home and in my view they stank. Very muddy sound. Fortunately they were within the B&W return zone.

Conclusion: Just because it is a name brand does not mean they sound good. (Don't get me going about Bose please)

Very cool that you repaired your units.

 

[IEMusic]

I think one of the more rewarding aspects of being a Head-fier is finding new enthusiasts, or ones who have been away for a while, who plan on spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on an item, and helping them discover a gem for a very small fraction of the price. It‘s fun reading how pleased they are with what they got, and realizing that the quality is just as good if not better than what they were originally considering. Now I will say, diminishing returns notwithstanding, there are many renown name brand products that are very pricey, but are also truly state-of-the-art. Whether or not it‘s worth it is a personal decision.

 

[feverfive]

Hype makes this hobby (and every other hobby known to man) go 'round. It's a monster that needs to be continually fed. Nothing new.

 

[Currawong]

The 40mm driver was offered for $30 a piece on eBay.

Speaker companies universally know little to nothing about making headphones so contract them out to OEM companies in China. They specify the looks and some other parameters to make them look neat, but how much effort they put into the actual acoustics varies.

I've recently been checking out noise cancelling headphones, and most brand-name ones have the same level of noise cancelling ability (and seem to use the same set-up, and likely circuit from the same OEM) though they have different external designs, and sometimes some unique drivers, like the recent DALI models.

Really, most brand-name headphones from speaker companies are just there to get the brand name into the heads of consumers, especially younger people. That way, when they are older and have more money, they are more likely to buy hi-fi gear from that brand after having a good memory of their headphones.

Sony is an exception, as they do everything in-house, including driver design.

 

[IEMusic]

Speaker companies universally know little to nothing about making headphones so contract them out to OEM companies in China. They specify the looks and some other parameters to make them look neat, but how much effort they put into the actual acoustics varies.

I've recently been checking out noise cancelling headphones, and most brand-name ones have the same level of noise cancelling ability (and seem to use the same set-up, and likely circuit from the same OEM) though they have different external designs, and sometimes some unique drivers, like the recent DALI models.

Really, most brand-name headphones from speaker companies are just there to get the brand name into the heads of consumers, especially younger people. That way, when they are older and have more money, they are more likely to buy hi-fi gear from that brand after having a good memory of their headphones.

Sony is an exception, as they do everything in-house, including driver design.

All true. Focal is a rare exception though.

 

[Currawong]

All true. Focal is a rare exception though.

I knew there was a company I had forgotten. Focal did a proper job of it, thankfully (except when their drivers fail). They don't make their own headphones though.

 

[KPzypher]

Brand-names? Small/boutique companies are the worst. They pump out new products every 6 months with no real improvements and charge an arm and a leg for something that costs very little to make (compared to what they charge). The news gets out to the forums, then the undeserved hype begins. An unfortunate revolving cycle and a side-effect of a small enthusiast based community. So easy to fool the crowd with sponsored reviews and nonsense marketing. In particular, the flagship market is so jacked up.

 

[Currawong]

Over the years I've talked to quite a few companies, and the trap they are put in is that they get a burst of sales around new products, as those products get attention, then things can drop right off, leaving them stuck. Very few get to make a product that becomes a standard which people continue to buy and is always recommended.

At the same time, with each release, companies get feedback on their designs, and seek to improve them, often leading to upgrades or new models (depending on the type of product).

So, while I definitely agree with you from the point of view of someone who would rather have one great pair of headphones, one great amp, etc. I do understand why things are the way they are on the forums.

 

[Redcarmoose]

As a young teen I purchased a bag of pot; they placed small rocks in it to make it heavier?

 

[Raketen]

I think with the mainstream brands of anything a shocking amount of money goes into marketing... sort of like with blockbuster movies where maybe onlyt 1/3 of the budget has anything to do with actual filmmaking process.

Over the years I've talked to quite a few companies, and the trap they are put in is that they get a burst of sales around new products, as those products get attention, then things can drop right off, leaving them stuck. Very few get to make a product that becomes a standard which people continue to buy and is always recommended.

At the same time, with each release, companies get feedback on their designs, and seek to improve them, often leading to upgrades or new models (depending on the type of product).

So, while I definitely agree with you from the point of view of someone who would rather have one great pair of headphones, one great amp, etc. I do understand why things are the way they are on the forums.

To this point... at first I thought this thread was a necro brecause it metioned B&W headphones at all

 

[thomas.otsig]

This makes me sad. Glad I didn't buy my P5's new, but still... It seems like I'm a sucker for nonsense marketing & design garbage.