[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by complin /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are others out there that build equally good products with the same commercial model though that dont seem to stimulate their buyers into a constant upgraditis. For example Headamp, Eddie Current (Zana Deux), Rockhopper Beta 22, EAR to name a few. Perhaps as you say it may just be the stimulus of CanJam, or do Single Power have something thats addictive that i've not cottoned on to? As i've never owned or listened to one it just makes me curious.

You really have to look at the numbers. SinglePower has a lot of amps out there - hundreds, if not more. Because of the sheer numbers, you get turnover in the used market. Sometimes people sell when they'd rather not.

Other amps, like the Zana, are very limited in production. I got mine in January and it is number 46. There has been (I think) another run since, but I doubt there are more than 60 in existence. Further, the Zana is unconventional and there's nothing else quite like it outside of DIY. Even in DIY, there are few headphone amp designs using the 6C33C.

 

[complin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom /img/forum/go_quote.gif My general impression is that there seem to be more SinglePower amps being sold than some of our other manufacturers. ..................... they are nice amps. I can understand why so many folks are such dedicated fans.

I agree there always seem to be several for sale, i'm not trying to be critical, just curious.
Perhaps I should buy one and see what I think. Its just the costs of shipping these units out of the USA and the import duties and tax can really bump up the price.

Also if there are so many variations this makes choice much more difficult. Particularly if they are tailored to specific phones. So if you fall out of favour with your phones you might have to swap your amp as well. Thats a heavy burden on the wallet!!
I thought the whole idea of having a well designed amp was that it should be able to cope with different types of phone i.e. high/low impeadance. Also that tube rolling enabled you to tailor the sound to your taste more than transitor?

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by complin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes but there must be at least an equal number if not more less expensive and popular tube amps such Woo Audio, Antique Sound Lab, Dark Voice? I must admit I cant comprehend why anyone would need 9 headphone amplifiers, even if they dont mind tying up the cash! Perhaps you can share your rational for keeping so many.

Not a chance with the Woo amps. Woo has only really started to gain market recognition in the past couple years; same with Dark Voice. There are far more SP owners on head-fi than Woo or DV owners. SP has been a head-fi phenomena since mid 2003. ASL made cheap headamps that typically broke when I joined head-fi in late 2002. The ASL had a short run then and basically disappeared in terms of owners on head-fi. ASL, IMO, was one example of a cheap tube amp that give tubes a bad reputation.

I dont have nine headamps. I currently have 15 headamps and nine are SP's. I have owned many more than that. I have sold .... an Audio Alchemy HPAV1.0, Headroom MOH, Headamp Gilmore V1 (the original 2 box), Headamp V2-SE, Headamp GS-1, Mapletree Ear+, Mapletree Ear+ Super, Woo 3 and most recently a Woo 6. I keep the amps that sound the best. I sell the ones I dont think measure up. I suppose I am a collector but I buy most products just to hear them .... and to experiment with different tubes.

The only exception regarding amps I sold that do measure up would be the Headamps. I think are the best commercial SS headamps available except for the DIY beta 22. I sold those because I just dont think SS sounds nearly as good as the better tube amps. I cant stand most op amp based headamps as they sound harsh, thin and irritating. I have tried a couple op amp based portables but I just end up not listening to them. I skip the bother and just use a low impedence headphone straight out of my cd player when I go portable.

Finally, I have obviously compared numerous tube and SS products and I know they dont sound similar. From your examples, I have owned Nelson Pass class A, zero feedback, single ended SS clones for my speakers which I very much enjoy. Tim D's tube amps dont do a thing for me; they sound like SS not tubes. I dont own any because I find them underperforming or overpriced; take your pick. Furthermore, I dont see where his tube designs transcend anything that hasnt been done before; except for their price. His V20? that used all 12AX7's was one of the most puzzling designs I have ever encountered.

 

[complin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif ........ Further, the Zana is unconventional and there's nothing else quite like it outside of DIY. Even in DIY, there are few headphone amp designs using the 6C33C.

Interesting.
Is it the general design of the amp thats unconventional or just the use of this particular tube?
What qualities does this impart to the sound say compared to those using more "mainstream" tubes?
I also understand this limits its suitability to particular types of headhones due to impeadance matching say sennheiser HD650 rather than Grado?

 

[complin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif I dont have nine headamps. I currently have 15 headamps and nine are SP's. I have owned many more than that. I have sold .... :

I would not have space in the house for 15 headphone amplifiers let alone "she who must be obeyed" would have a fit!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif The only exception regarding amps I sold that do measure up would be the Headamps. I think are the best commercial SS headamps available except for the DIY beta 22. :

I had heard that the beta 22 is a good sounding amplifier
I've also heard the Headamp SS designs criticised for their midrange, is that the case?
However; I understand their tube designs (Blue Hawaii), particularly for electrostics are possibly the best there is!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif Tim D's tube amps dont do a thing for me; they sound like SS not tubes. I dont own any because I find them underperforming or overpriced; take your pick. Furthermore, I dont see where his tube designs transcend anything that hasnt been done before; except for their price. His V20? that used all 12AX7's was one of the most puzzling designs I have ever encountered.

This is what i was saying you can get all the impact of an SS amp in a tube design, Tim D has shown this IMHO with great success. Yes his designs are unconventional and he is known as the designers designer. He is probably the only designer who has designed everything from the microphone to the speaker and everything in the chain in between. He produces top end professional equipment for recording studios, including cutting lathes for records, and his designs have been acclaimed for their sound and build quality internationally.
Yes his designs are unconventional and innovative, especially in transformer design which is why i was saying he has been one of the true innovaters in this area

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by complin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also if there are so many variations this makes choice much more difficult. Particularly if they are tailored to specific phones. So if you fall out of favour with your phones you might have to swap your amp as well. Thats a heavy burden on the wallet!! I thought the whole idea of having a well designed amp was that it should be able to cope with different types of phone i.e. high/low impeadance. Also that tube rolling enabled you to tailor the sound to your taste more than transitor?

I think you are making some invalid assumptions here ....

The SP amps are the ones that do exactly what you state a well designed amp should do. SP amps with the appropriate output tubes drive varying impedances very well, regardless of the model. The SP Extreme, in particular, drives low impedances well compared to ANY amp. The tuberolling choices for the SP amps exceeds ANY other manufacturers offerings.

The SP amps drive any headphone I use with authority .... 32 ohm Grados, 62 ohm low sensitivity AKG 701's, 120 ohm Senn 595's and 300 ohm Senn 580/600's. The Extreme will even drive AKG 1000's.

As an example, on the SP Extreme, for gain duty (the 1st tube) I have used the 6cg7, 6gu7, 6sn7, 7af7, 7n7, 2c51-5670, 12av7-5965-6414-6829-7062 .... and probably a few more I forgot to mention. You can fine tune these amps like no other.

I hope that clears up your understanding.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by complin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Interesting. Is it the general design of the amp thats unconventional or just the use of this particular tube? What qualities does this impart to the sound say compared to those using more "mainstream" tubes? I also understand this limits its suitability to particular types of headhones due to impeadance matching say sennheiser HD650 rather than Grado?

The Zana Deux puts out 200 mw into a 32 ohm load and 650 mw into a 300 ohm load. The amp will drive most headphones very well.

 

[nikongod]

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Originally Posted by complin /img/forum/go_quote.gif IMHO I would disagree that tube amps are naturally superior in quality to transistor. There are some really poor quality tube amps out there in both construction and sound quality. In fact if you compare the sound form some of the lgendary designers of amplifiers Nelson Pass (Transistor) Tim de Paravicini (Tubes) they are surprisingly similar. It really depends what type of load you are driving and the balance of the speakers/headphones. In fact the whole chain from source through to headphones can influence the sound in quite drastic ways.

to be sure, they can be voiced VERY close, but for non-feedback apps, tubes are more linear. once you get into feedback, you have all manner of fun with the distribution of distortions.

while there is a lot in any audio system that can influence the sound, why should you kill its hopes of doing anything worthwhile with an obvious bottleneck?
Quote:

IMHO i cant see how you would class SP products unique, many of the tube amplifiers in production today are based on variations of very old designs dating back 50 years or more. Perhaps i'm not aware of the unique features and you could elaborate on this.

yes, the singlepower amps are variations of old designs. almost everyting tube or solid state is. new technology ocasionally allows the designer to build something that was invented in the 50's but never implemented because it would have required 3 tubes rather than 1.... people call this "new."

regarding uniqueness:
If you want a nelson pass amp with tantalum signal path resistors, 6n silver wiring, black gate caps and a funky transformer he sells you the amp he made dozens of and you go somewhere to get it modified. that is what i mean by unique. the products made by nelson pass and tim D are indeed unique in the audio world, but every one leaving their shop is the same as its brothers.

If you ask mikhail for something he thinks may sound good he will probably build it for you.

to add to what sacd said above, i have run 2000 ohm senheisers off of my SP amps. sexxy buisness.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif "...Further, the Zana is unconventional and there's nothing else quite like it outside of DIY. Even in DIY, there are few headphone amp designs using the 6C33C..."

It is funny that while I mentioned that tube long time ago (far before any ZANA was released) as one of the few tubes able to handle properly a low Z in OTL mode (IMO the only acceptable way of listening a tube amp) Some of the "knowledgeable members here" argued with me that this tube was not as good sounding as the ones that were found more frequent in many tube amp designs.
Now after the ZANA was released, and more people listened to it, and there is even a waiting list for it, IIRC, I know of at least a couple of the guys on that list, that by coincidnece were some of the ones who argue with me before.....paradoxical, eh?

 

[nikongod]

Quote:

Originally Posted by complin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Interesting. Is it the general design of the amp thats unconventional or just the use of this particular tube?

its not really unique, but an unusual use of certain things. its a plate-loaded output tube. it is essentially a parafeed circuit, but with the headphones where a transformer would normally go. it is a clever use of things, but not new.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is funny that while I mentioned that tube long time ago (far before any ZANA was released) as one of the few tubes able to handle properly a low Z in OTL mode (IMO the only acceptable way of listening a tube amp) Some of the "knowledgeable members here" argued with me that this tube was not as good sounding as the ones that were found more frequent in many tube amp designs.

eeeh, the amp has an output impedance of 200ohms before massive global feedback is applied... so you have global feedback (lots) and an ouptut impedance similar to any of the other OTL tube amps, perhaps slightly lower than everything but the extreme.

sorry, but it is not a perfect tube. you still have to pick which design compromises are to be made. cathode followers (and their variations) without feedback, or plate loaded tubes with LOTS of global feedback. you also have 1 option for the input tube "family" and maybe 3 for the output tubes.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by complin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would not have space in the house for 15 headphone amplifiers let alone "she who must be obeyed" would have a fit!! I had heard that the beta 22 is a good sounding amplifier I've also heard the Headamp SS designs criticised for their midrange, is that the case? However; I understand their tube designs (Blue Hawaii), particularly for electrostics are possibly the best there is! This is what i was saying you can get all the impact of an SS amp in a tube design, Tim D has shown this IMHO with great success.

1) In the US we have these things called man caves .... and I have a large one. The wife never ventures down there so no problem.

2) I have never had a problem with the Headamap mids. But, the amps are very neutral and clean sounding. People with less than stellar sources often complain about the amps being to analytical .... but I think that is a source problem. That said, I much prefer the harmonic richness and realism of tubes.

3) What I am saying is Tim D's tube amps, IMO, squeeze out much of the qualities that make tubes special. You get the SS advantages but lose a lot of the tube advantages. I can get the SS advantages in many SS products. I want the harmonic rightness and the extreme dynamic swings that only the best tube amps do. But, more than anything, I want that midrange realism that only the best tube amps do.

To be honest, I have six transformer coupled tube amps and none of them have the realism my OTL's do. I like the transformer coupled tube sound, especially the bass, but for the most lifelike sound I still prefer OTL's.

 

[nikongod]

hi

what amp is this:

thanks

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is funny that while I mentioned that tube long time ago (far before any ZANA was released) as one of the few tubes able to handle properly a low Z in OTL mode (IMO the only acceptable way of listening a tube amp) Some of the "knowledgeable members here" argued with me that this tube was not as good sounding as the ones that were found more frequent in many tube amp designs. Now after the ZANA was released, and more people listened to it, and there is even a waiting list for it, IIRC, I know of at least a couple of the guys on that list, that by coincidnece were some of the ones who argue with me before.....paradoxical, eh?

The King of Tube Misinformation arrives ....

I am one of the ones that argued with you ... and the Zana did exist. No one never said the tube doesnt have the power to do OTL. But, I dont particularly like the 6c33 sound and I especially dont like the extreme precautions you have to take to keep the tube alive.

In the end, after the 6c33 is rendered reliable the Extreme with a typical 6AS7 puts out twice the power and sounds just as good for half the money.

Now, why is OTL the only acceptable way? Transformer coupled tube amps can sound great and you can use lower powered tubes and still drive low impedances. While I prefer my SP OTL amps, the transformer coupled amps I have still sound better than any SS that has passed through here.

Finally, King of Misinformation

, there is no waiting list. Eddie Current does a limited run of approximately 10 amps. He posts a run is in progress and people sign up. Once he gets his 10 he sets up production with the supplier that does the actual build. There is an order sign up right now on the EC website ....

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif hi what amp is this: thanks

An experiment .... the Darling 1626 SET. I am having hum issues though. I dont know if the amp got damaged in shipping or what. Even, through the hum the amp sounds very, very good. I am driving Senn 600's with a cable terminated with spades off the speaker outputs. Fierce Freak has the amp right now doing some troubleshooting for me. My Bottlehead works fine = no hum .... used exactly the same way.

If I get the hum worked out this amp will be a killer. I am already bugging Mikhail to do a SP prototype 1626. Mikhail has tons of 1626 tubes. I wish he had more time.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif The King of Tube Misinformation arrives .... I am one of the ones that argued with you ... and the Zana did exist. No one never said the tube doesn't have the power to do OTL. But, I dint particularly like the 6c33 sound and I especially don't like the extreme precautions you have to take to keep the tube alive. In the end, after the 6c33 is rendered reliable the Extreme with a typical 6AS7 puts out twice the power and sounds just as good for half the money. Now, why is OTL the only acceptable way? Transformer coupled tube amps can sound great and you can use lower powered tubes and still drive low impedances. While I prefer my SP OTL amps, the transformer coupled amps I have still sound better than any SS that has passed through here.

I said IMO, the only acceptable way, not that is written in stone, as I prefer OTL over the transformer coupled amps...To me is funny how you are able to hear the difference between two different digital cables, and are not able to hear the anomalies introduced by a transformer in the signal path...

BTW are you in that list to go for the ZANA, that will be the most funniest thing ever!!!! So what makes you think that was you the one I'm talking about, first while you are not in that list, and second while I called them "knowledgeable members". Not sure but to call yourself a knowledgeable member, is bordering on the egocentric side, don't you think?.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by complin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I must admit I cant comprehend why anyone would need 9 headphone amplifiers, even if they don't mind tying up the cash! Perhaps you can share your rational for keeping so many.

Well actually we have a few "pathological cases" here, some people feel that accumulating gear, taking pictures of them, and post them on-line, or maybe take them once in a while to meetings and show them like in a pissing match, gives them prestige, knowledge, or an special social status, these are like their trophies to a hunter. For some others the weirdest, the hardest to get, and the more expensive and unique, the better, it doesn't matter how they sound, sometimes they do not even listen them, they are like a antique collector, that is why we see nowadays still people buying the Sennheiser Charleston.
Others, and a very few others, do not really need to sell them, or maybe enjoy all of them in different ways, what I found really bizarre, but that is their prerrogative...

But in all cases what they do not understand is that this hobby is only about trying to get music as close as a live experience, in other words, hearing and enjoying a given moment, and the only accumulation that counts is the experiences you live...