[ProtegeManiac]

The only thing I realize is that you're trolling the thread.

Considering what we know of Bob, we can deduce that any answer that isn't the kind of answer Bob is looking for is borderline trolling already.

Reiterating it creatively mimicking Bob's thought and speech patterns in an effort to try and get the point across thinking this would actually work tends to make Bob think of it as trolling.

Unfortunately, none of those classifiers can determine for me whether or not a particular 'phone is well-suited for the task. Isolation level does just that.

And as explained, you can infer the isolation level if you understand each classification and sub-classification. But Bob doesn't want to hear that, Bob only wants to hear people tell Bob that he's absolutely brilliant.

Sounds good vs like ass: In the wrong listening environment, phenomenal headphones sound like ass. Try using an HD800 on transit. You'd get better sound quality from $5 IEMs, because they provide isolation necessary to increase dynamic range.

Anybody who reads and understands that there's practically just a giant hole made up of smaller holes to prevent physical damage to the drivers would know that.

Bob somehow thinks that he knows that but still makes it seem like something is confusing in there somewhere, suggesting there's another giant hole made up of smaller holes elsewhere (ie, inside Bob's head).

Portable, vs. only can be used at home. These are not mutually exclusive. Earbuds, for example, are portable, but not suitable for mobile use. They're for quiet-room listening only (unless they're only for background music).

Hence why you don't see flagship earbuds since they still jam something in the (outer) ear giving half the discomfort of IEMs for zero isolation.

Ever notice how apart from the Yuin PK1 and such people who use earbuds tend to be the sort of people who use whatever came with their phone (or iPod a decade ago) until it breaks, at which point they'll get some $5 earbud from Best Buy? Because these are the people who, like Bob, don't want to read and understand these details.

Cheap vs. Expensive All form factors can be found at a wide range of prices. Most times, this won't be a factor, unless the 'phone will be at increased risk of damage or theft.

It's a factor depending on what each potential user can spend based on his finances. But Bob doesn't care about that either apparently.

Comfortable or not. I've found comfortable and uncomfortable 'phones of all form factors.Some designs are created with comfort in mind, others aren't. My Bose QC35 are my most comfortable (and worst sounding) headphone. My Grados aren't comfortable for long periods (but sound great). My Etys are very comfortable, even more than my Bose, but not terribly convenient. Comfort is important, but it doesn't correlate well to form factor.

In anticipation of a thread with the title "Why do we classify headphones by form factor instead of comfort level," the reason is because it's highly subjective. For every nine people railing against Grados chances are there's one who can't fathom why those other people have a problem.

Hi @ProtegeManiac,

As said, I feel your pain...
I really feel your pain, I have the same issues trying to explain things...probably to the same boneheads...you try to help & explain things too as well
Though most times I don't usually answer in the first place as it helps alleviate a lot of potential stress & frustrated headbanging on my part.
At least the important thing is if we can help somebody, it is worth it to some degree though some days I do find that not only debatable but highly questionable.

Anyway, keep helping those who really need it & eventually we can hope it balances out.
Sanity nowithstanding is another story.

P.S. I would suggest some sort of speed bag or stout stick to hit something to relieve frustration.
Not worth replacing potentially broken keyboards or medical expenses for accidental aggravated concussions...

Hope you have a great day !

If atomic facepalms could literally happen I would have already made Fallout a real life MMO

 

[megabigeye]

@ProtegeManiac
I don't understand two things about your posts in this thread:
1) If you feel like you're not getting your point across and you're not going to get your point across, why do you keep posting? I don't mean to be rude by asking that. If it were me, I'd like to think I'd just walk away. Why are you causing yourself (and Jaywalk3r, I assume) unneeded frustration?

2) I don't understand your trouble with "Bob." It seems to me that he would be the sort of person that tries to find out information on his own before asking questions, but you seem to be of the mind that he just assumes to know things and doesn't want to learn more. Where did you get that impression? From Jaywalk3r's scenario, I gather that Bob a) has little information; b) wants to gather more information before asking questions; but c) finds gathering information to be inefficient and unintuitive because of the way Head-Fi is laid out and also because of general language around earphones. I can sympathize with that. I worked retail for ten years myself-- if every customer had been more like Bob, I think I'd have been a lot happier.

 

[Svenrolic]

@ProtegeManiac
I don't understand two things about your posts in this thread:
1) If you feel like you're not getting your point across and you're not going to get your point across, why do you keep posting? I don't mean to be rude by asking that. If it were me, I'd like to think I'd just walk away. Why are you causing yourself (and Jaywalk3r, I assume) unneeded frustration?

2) I don't understand your trouble with "Bob." It seems to me that he would be the sort of person that tries to find out information on his own before asking questions, but you seem to be of the mind that he just assumes to know things and doesn't want to learn more. Where did you get that impression? From Jaywalk3r's scenario, I gather that Bob a) has little information; b) wants to gather more information before asking questions; but c) finds gathering information to be inefficient and unintuitive because of the way Head-Fi is laid out and also because of general language around earphones. I can sympathize with that. I worked retail for ten years myself-- if every customer had been more like Bob, I think I'd have been a lot happier.

1. Because he just can't get over the idea that someone thinks the sole determining factor for choosing a headphone would be based off of isolation.
2. Because he is literally just replacing the name of the OP with "Bob" so it is less...offensive? Who knows, really

OP once again refused to explain if the "we" in the title means people in general or head-fi users. I assume he means head-fi users because the general population doesn't care about sound quality and picks up $5 earbuds/IEMs or Beats/Bose when their last pair got lost or broken. OP is either intentionally or unintentionally trolling by leading users to believe the question refers to all people opposed to the way head-fi organizes their website.

 

[Jaywalk3r]

And as explained, you can infer the isolation level if you understand each classification and sub-classification.

As explained, just one classification is needed: Isolating or passive. The level of isolation is the primary factor determining whether a 'phone is appropriate.

Hence why you don't see flagship earbuds since they still jam something in the (outer) ear giving half the discomfort of IEMs for zero isolation.

You see exactly such earbuds these days. Like me, you must have missed the emergence of premium earbuds. The Shozy BK I just picked holds its own against my best open-back headphones. I'm certainly not giving up any sound quality with the form factor. It's functionally equivalent to an open-back headphone.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I notice most people concern themselves primarily with form factor, not isolation type. In this way, on-ear and over-ear headphones are classified similarly, and earbuds and IEMs are similarly grouped together. To me, this doesn't seem very useful from a practical perspective, only an aesthetic one.

It better to me to group by degree of isolation. The degree of isolation provided by the 'phone determines the noise floor for listening in any given environment.

I consider my Bose QC35 and my Etymōtic ER4XR to be ideal for similar tasks. Both are good for noisy environments. For such environments, either is a reasonably good choice, despite their differences.

Likewise, closed-back over-ear headphones and IEMs are similar enough that they tend to excel in the same environments. A quiet listening area isn't needed, but too much noise can require higher listening volumes than otherwise might be desirable.

Finally, I consider earbuds and open-back cans as very similar. They require a quiet listening environment to sound good, because they don't block external sounds.

The only time I ever consider headphone vs earphone as an important selection factor is when temperature dictates that headphones would be more (or less) comfortable than earphones because they cover my ears. (To be fair, I've never owned premium earbuds or closed-back, non-ANR headphones.)

1. Because he just can't get over the idea that someone thinks the sole determining factor for choosing a headphone would be based off of isolation.
2. Because he is literally just replacing the name of the OP with "Bob" so it is less...offensive? Who knows, really

OP once again refused to explain if the "we" in the title means people in general or head-fi users. I assume he means head-fi users because the general population doesn't care about sound quality and picks up $5 earbuds/IEMs or Beats/Bose when their last pair got lost or broken. OP is either intentionally or unintentionally trolling by leading users to believe the question refers to all people opposed to the way head-fi organizes their website.

@Sevnrolic
That sums it up. The whole thread from post one. Cheers.

There are IEM measurements which actually show sound isolation for each model. Not very many companies do it but maybe it’s starting to be used. These numbers as a whole can be very informative once you learn how to read them. Still with numbers; every human is going to get a slighly different fit, thus different level of sound occlusion.

Headphones get the over all descriptive terms due to their style in relation to headphone history. Much of the time there are form factor characteristics which parallel, but the magic is each headphone is very different. The best way to look at categories is understand there will always be differences. Take bicycles for example; a road bike is one category. Road bikes are all going to have the same form factor but vary due to design and construction material. Thus for one person a steel bike will be have more rigidity. And in the realm of steel road bikes each one handles slighly different. So you can’t really get a clue till you try them. Headphones are just like this. Each is to it’s own finite nature.

Part of this sound isolation stuff with earbuds comes down to ear shape and if foamies are used or not. Some earbuds can be twisted to form a better seal. So it all comes down to the person.

One really misleading thing can be to try to oversimplify stuff. Really there are no earbuds which sound exactly like open back headphones. What our brain can do is think it’s watching a 50 inch TV when reality it’s a 20 inch screen; due to being into the entertainment experience. Again each headphone has it’s own finite nature. And........it can at times vary between headphones of the same make and model. Typically if one feels sound parallels between an earbud and a full-size open back headphone, the differences will become clear at a later time.

Even though we try, our perception is limited at times. Due to the illusions of audio perception our brain at times can fill in information from prior listening experiences to try and comprehend the current listening headphone or IEM. Because we feel our perception is reality we observe an illusion. An example would be after you leave a room another person asks what shape of handle the teapot had. Our memory has only seen round teapot handles so we remember it as round. In reality the handle is square. This style of memory illusion can occur in real time while listening to headphones. It can be called expectation bias too.

I tried to generalize Earbuds with Openback headphones and have been guilty of gross grouping error myself tying to understand sound quality at times. Many of the issues pointed out above relate to why we get different reviews and subjective opinions at Head-Fi. These same concepts also create hype in headphones. If your told something is a certain way you start to look for those characteristics and hear them.

All the above with out even starting to factor in what someone’s preferences in sound signature are. Not counting their hearing character. Not counting their music genre choice. Not counting their equipment upstream and the character it implies onto an end sound.

The reason it’s complicated is because it’s complicated. No reason to oversimplify things.

 

[Jaywalk3r]

Really there are no earbuds which sound exactly like open back headphones.

Wrong. Counterexamples have been given upthread.

If two displays, with the same dimensions and pixel count, take up the same steradians of your field of view, you will not be able to determine their size without knowing their distance, or the distance without knowing their size. At the correct distances, a viewer would be unable to distinguish a 30 inch display from a 60 inch display. Everything is proportional.

Same with 'phones. A smaller driver, closer, sounds the same as a larger diver, farther away.

 

[PaganDL]

If atomic facepalms could literally happen I would have already made Fallout a real life MMO

Hi @ProtegeManiac,

I totally agree, I totally agree...

Hope you have a great day !

 

[ProtegeManiac]

@ProtegeManiac
I don't understand two things about your posts in this thread:
1) If you feel like you're not getting your point across and you're not going to get your point across, why do you keep posting? I don't mean to be rude by asking that. If it were me, I'd like to think I'd just walk away. Why are you causing yourself (and Jaywalk3r, I assume) unneeded frustration?

Other people might have the same question and read through this. And also to not reply like Jaywalk3r.

As for frustration, I'm at the point where it's already some kind of entertainment value already, so long as I'm bored anyway, might as well amuse myself.

2) I don't understand your trouble with "Bob." It seems to me that he would be the sort of person that tries to find out information on his own before asking questions, but you seem to be of the mind that he just assumes to know things and doesn't want to learn more. Where did you get that impression? From Jaywalk3r's scenario, I gather that Bob a) has little information; b) wants to gather more information before asking questions; but c) finds gathering information to be inefficient and unintuitive because of the way Head-Fi is laid out and also because of general language around earphones. I can sympathize with that. I worked retail for ten years myself-- if every customer had been more like Bob, I think I'd have been a lot happier.

The way Jaywalk3r introduced Bob in such an arrogant manner is what morphed everything from frustration into something with some entertainment value.

Wrong. Counterexamples have been given upthread.

If two displays, with the same dimensions and pixel count, take up the same steradians of your field of view, you will not be able to determine their size without knowing their distance, or the distance without knowing their size. At the correct distances, a viewer would be unable to distinguish a 30 inch display from a 60 inch display. Everything is proportional.

Same with 'phones. A smaller driver, closer, sounds the same as a larger diver, farther away.

Except you can't even just get two drivers of the exact same size to have the same sound when even drivers on the exact same headphone can have some variances in how they measure.

Potentially you can make them sound close enough, but again, for the nth to nth power time, it's a marketing problem. Why develop an earbud with a 10mm driver that performs as well as the 70mm driver flagship when people who buy these things will just be able to use them in the same kind of listening environment, ie, very quiet, only to have one poking his ear anyway? Might as well buy an IEM.

 

[GREQ]

It's also not possible for a small earbud driver that bypasses your entire earlobe to sound EXACTLY like a full size over-ear headphone that is tuned differently because of the exact opposite reason that the entire sound wave hits your earlobe.
Hearing/audio isn't just resolution, frequency response, isolation and timbre. These can sound very much alike, but the feeling of the sound is what makes full sized headphones always superior.
There are vibrations involved; the physical impact of a large sound wave hitting your entire ear or a smaller one being bypassed directly into your ear canal will never sound the same because the sensations are different.

 

[Svenrolic]

It's also not possible for a small earbud driver that bypasses your entire earlobe to sound EXACTLY like a full size over-ear headphone that is tuned differently because of the exact opposite reason that the entire sound wave hits your earlobe.
Hearing/audio isn't just resolution, frequency response, isolation and timbre. These can sound very much alike, but the feeling of the sound is what makes full sized headphones always superior.
There are vibrations involved; the physical impact of a large sound wave hitting your entire ear or a smaller one being bypassed directly into your ear canal will never sound the same because the sensations are different.

Oof. /thread

Thank.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Anyone who reads this thread will be educated to a point. I mean education is everywhere you look; concepts gone over theories talked about; it’s all good, I guess? But there is no need to beat the dead horse anymore.

 

[megabigeye]

Other people might have the same question and read through this. And also to not reply like Jaywalk3r.

As for frustration, I'm at the point where it's already some kind of entertainment value already, so long as I'm bored anyway, might as well amuse myself.




The way Jaywalk3r introduced Bob in such an arrogant manner is what morphed everything from frustration into something with some entertainment value.

Agreed that another person might have a more productive, easier to counter response. But you're causing yourself and others frustration because it's entertaining to you?
There was already some discussion in this very thread about the difficulties of online communication, wherein Jaywalk3r and I both admitted to having difficulty knowing how we would come across to others and also how difficult it is to interpret others' intentions and true meanings. Jaywalk3r said something about being interpreted as a jerk when that isn't his intention, and then he apologized for potentially unintentionally coming across that way. I think this could be safely extended to any person and any intention: you, me, other posters in this thread; jerk-ish, kind, funny, arrogant, etc. You mean to come across one way, you're interpreted another. If a person's tone of voice and body language aren't available, I think this is perfectly acceptable and even expected.

So, with that in mind, it seems to me that Jaywalk3r didn't necessarily introduce "Bob" arrogantly, but you did necessarily interpret it that way. You're projecting something onto his/her arguments that you don't actually know, namely an arrogant attitude.

Jaywalk3r has disclosed his/her difficulty in accurately projecting his/her attitude, knows interpretations will differ, and even apologized for a discrepancy between intention and interpretation. I interpret this as his/her having at least some self-awareness and humility.

You project attitudes and feelings that you don't know exist onto another person and admit to frustrating other people for your own entertainment. I interpret this as arrogance and lack of self-awareness. I doubt that this is how you want or intend to be interpreted.

 

[Svenrolic]

Agreed that another person might have a more productive, easier to counter response. But you're causing yourself and others frustration because it's entertaining to you?
There was already some discussion in this very thread about the difficulties of online communication, wherein Jaywalk3r and I both admitted to having difficulty knowing how we would come across to others and also how difficult it is to interpret others' intentions and true meanings. Jaywalk3r said something about being interpreted as a jerk when that isn't his intention, and then he apologized for potentially unintentionally coming across that way. I think this could be safely extended to any person and any intention: you, me, other posters in this thread; jerk-ish, kind, funny, arrogant, etc. You mean to come across one way, you're interpreted another. If a person's tone of voice and body language aren't available, I think this is perfectly acceptable and even expected.

So, with that in mind, it seems to me that Jaywalk3r didn't necessarily introduce "Bob" arrogantly, but you did necessarily interpret it that way. You're projecting something onto his/her arguments that you don't actually know, namely an arrogant attitude.

Jaywalk3r has disclosed his/her difficulty in accurately projecting his/her attitude, knows interpretations will differ, and even apologized for a discrepancy between intention and interpretation. I interpret this as his/her having at least some self-awareness and humility.

You project attitudes and feelings that you don't know exist onto another person and admit to frustrating other people for your own entertainment. I interpret this as arrogance and lack of self-awareness. I doubt that this is how you want or intend to be interpreted.

To be fair, I interpreted Jay's replies the same way. They seemed condescending and arrogant while accusing others of that behavior. I'm sure many of us struggle with setting the correct tone in our responses, but OP's messages seemed rather pointed in his attempts to discredit all conflicting viewpoints from a position of perceived arrogance.

That said, this is a little off topic and doesn't contribute much to the discussion of the original post.

Back on the topic of the post, Jaywalk3r, could you please explain the what you meant by "we" in the original post? Do you mean people as a whole, head-fi as a website, the headphones community, or what? This is my third attempt to solicit a response to this question.

 

[megabigeye]

To be fair, I interpreted Jay's replies the same way. They seemed condescending and arrogant while accusing others of that behavior. I'm sure many of us struggle with setting the correct tone in our responses, but OP's messages seemed rather pointed in his attempts to discredit all conflicting viewpoints from a position of perceived arrogance.

That said, this is a little off topic and doesn't contribute much to the discussion of the original post.

Back on the topic of the post, Jaywalk3r, could you please explain the what you meant by "we" in the original post? Do you mean people as a whole, head-fi as a website, the headphones community, or what? This is my third attempt to solicit a response to this question.

You're right, and I'm sorry for helping steer this thread off subject.
I certainly don't want to project my own feelings onto Jaywalk3r (or ProtegeManiac, for that matter) but my interpretation is that he asked a question that wasn't entirely clear, didn't get the responses he was hoping for, grew frustrated, and responded in a frustrated way without really explaining his point or accepting what others were saying.
My interpretation of ProtegeManiac was that he also didn't get the answers he wanted, grew frustrated, and intentionally tried to goad and insult Jaywalk3r with "Bob" as proxy.
Maybe I'm introducing my own biases here and I'd honestly feel awful if I were unintentionally favoring Jay over PM. The thought kind of makes my gut churn. I often interpret PM's posts the same way, but, in fairness to him/her, I know that other's find his/her posts useful (even where I don't) and s/he does often reply in helpful ways. Again, I'd feel bad if I were unnecessarily calling him/her out.
There were other nastier posts that I was planning on calling out as well, but thankfully those were deleted.

Anyway.
Again, agreed. Let's try to get this back on subject. I actually find it kind of interesting.



PS-- as a weird aside, Jay is my stepbrother's name, PM is another stepbrother's initials, and Bob is my brother's name. Weird.

PPS-- Can I assume that both Jaywalk3r and ProtegeManiac are men? I'm getting tired of typing "him/her." Oof.

 

[megabigeye]

Oops. Messed up. Meant to edit my previous post.

Derp!