[bigshot]

If you consider placebo and expectation bias to be features that you are willing to pay extra for, feel free to do that. But if you’re going to extol the virtues of your delusion in sound science you aren’t going to get very far with it. We get to call you on the sloppiness of your logic and demand objective proof of what you say. If you refuse to do that, we get to dismiss you with a wave of the hand!

We are perfectly willing to let you be foolish if that’s how you want to be. To each his own. But don’t expect us to validate your foolishness.

 

[GrussGott]

It is extremely inefficient to apply coloration using out of spec cables.

Definitely agree with that, yet to to be fair to the OP and the topic:

After trying a few USB cables I came across the Nordost Blue Heaven USB. This was the first USB cable that actually made an improvement in my system instead of just sounding slightly different. I then decided to go all out and get the next step up.. the Nordost Heimdall 2 USB. This thing made as much, if not more of an improvement then a power cable or interconnect. But the question is WHY?

To your point, randomly trying USB cables until you find one that improves sound quality is (a.) annoying, and (b.) shouldn't be done for purposes of coloring sound.

For me, I don't worry about why, only if, and for me the AQ Carbon USB cable was the right mix of improvement and cost because I don't digital EQ at the source and anything lost between my laptop and DAC can never be recovered.

 

[gregorio]

(4.) Decide: Do you like the sound better or worse or no different?
[A] The only concern should be, "did that sound better"?

4. As USB cables do not carry any sound, what does judging sound have to do with anything?

A. If I buy a USB cable, whether for a DAC, a printer, external disk or whatever, the only concern should be: "Is this cable USB compliant, does it transfer data perfectly according to USB specifications?". Maybe your "only concern" is whether the USB cable for your printer, hard disk or other digital device "sounds better" but I certainly don't and I don't believe many others on the planet do either.

G

 

[GrussGott]

But don’t expect us to validate your foolishness.

I don't expect anything from more from you (I don't know who "us" is - are you speaking for some formal committee?) than I do from any other poster on this forum: be realistic and honest about which hobby you're discussing. And FYI the name-calling is probably not supported by posting rules as well just plain makes you sound so weak and fragile, which I'm guessing is the opposite of what you intend.

So back on topic, and to the OP's point, many experience an improvement with USB cables - but explaining why takes us out of the realm of the leisure hobby of enjoying music, and into other pursuits that I believe are beyond this forum (and this hobby).

 

[GrussGott]

4. As USB cables do not carry any sound, what does judging sound have to do with anything?

If you've tried an expensive USB cable in your system for a few weeks and didn't hear a difference, please let us know what your system setup is, and what cable you tried.

If you didn't, then just disclaim that your opinions are all amateur scientist guesses and theories that you have no actual practical experience with.

 

[Triode User]

4. As USB cables do not carry any sound, what does judging sound have to do with anything?

A. If I buy a USB cable, whether for a DAC, a printer, external disk or whatever, the only concern should be: "Is this cable USB compliant, does it transfer data perfectly according to USB specifications?". Maybe your "only concern" is whether the USB cable for your printer, hard disk or other digital device "sounds better" but I certainly don't and I don't believe many others on the planet do either.

G

I dipped in to this thread before and then dipped out. But may I introduce the possibility that digital cables can also carry unwanted analogue noise which can get into the dac and colour the sound. I am familiar with the response that any properly designed and executed dac would filter out any such piggy backing noise but non the less the ideal world situation does not always exist in that respect. I have personally demonstrated the difference in sound due to different digital cables and have sold them to people who have handed over their hard earned cash on the basis of the demonstration. Obviously the ones and noughts are still the same ones and noughts so the actual music contained in the digital signal is unaltered.

Just a thought.

 

[GrussGott]

may I introduce the possibility that digital cables can also carry unwanted analogue noise

As well as the fact the any cable with a conductor is transmitting an analog signal; including when that analog signal is constructed in such a way as to represent digital, i.e., a square wave.

A perfect square wave is not possible so the equipment is configured to translate less than perfect square waves into digital like this:

but, if there's "noise on the wire" errors in translation can occur, changing the result to this:

The higher quality the quality of the transmission, the lower the probability of translation errors

 

[gregorio]

[1] But may I introduce the possibility that digital cables can also carry unwanted analogue noise which can get into the dac and colour the sound.
[2] I am familiar with the response that any properly designed and executed dac would filter out any such piggy backing noise but non the less the ideal world situation does not always exist in that respect.
[3] I have personally demonstrated the difference in sound due to different digital cables and have sold them to people who have handed over their hard earned cash on the basis of the demonstration.

1. No, ANY competently designed DAC (or other digital device) will reject any noise and only read the zeros and ones.There's always noise in a USB signal and going through a USB cable, regardless of whether it's cheap or expensive cable, either a USB DAC operates optimally with a USB signal or it's not a USB DAC. There are DACs for less than $80 which reject noise to many times below audibility, are audiophile DACs inferior to cheap DACs?

2. How many billions of digital devices are there in the world which are apparently ideal and do read USB data bit perfectly without the need for expensive cables?

3. Yep, it's amazing how people can be persuaded to part with their hard earned cash with a bit of marketing and suggestion. Loads of people handed over their extremely hard earned cash over 100 years ago for the original snake oil.

G

 

[castleofargh]

Which is exactly why it's 100% reliable. The only concern should be, "did that sound better"? That's the whole point of buying any of this equipment in the first place.

What's your methodology to determine if your dinner tastes good? You taste it. If it's in a nice place, and looks great, and you love it do you care whether that was expectations or something else?

You shouldn't, as this is a leisure hobby unless you're a vendor.

the very idea that a USB cable would be picked by ear is pretty special IMO. it's born on the premise that USB cables will sound different, and then on the premise that your sighted experience is reliable.
while the first one can probably happen for some reason sometimes(I'd expect that to be rare), the second one is just false.

the good part about measurements is that they provide a clear quantification and let us know when the magnitude of variations are so small that it doesn't make much sense to look for them by ear. or when it does, it serves as evidence of the improvement. making our biased sighted impressions a little less suspicious.

There have been definitive answers except everyone has a different one lol. My short answer is yes they make a difference. Longer answer is just how much depends on the system's transparency and how good or bad the power situation is and also depends on how the dac transport/pc sends info to the dac. Bottom line is just get something better than el cheapo cables but don't spend more than 20% or so of the value of the entire system and lastly, just audition a few and have fun.

where is the evidence that cheap cables don't usually do the job? from which hat did you pull this 20% value?

the fact is that most people don't have to and don't care about USB cables at all. they get a DAC, plug the USB cable usually provided with it and never have to think about it again. people who buy several USB cables to try them, they're maniacs. I'm one of those somehow, and there isn't a single doubt that I've done more extensive testing of my cables than most audiophiles. but I can still see that it's not the usual behavior or what everybody should do. USB cables aren't bad enough often enough to warrant suspecting them de facto of failing at transparency.

 

[Phronesis]

Which is exactly why it's 100% reliable. The only concern should be, "did that sound better"? That's the whole point of buying any of this equipment in the first place.

What's your methodology to determine if your dinner tastes good? You taste it. If it's in a nice place, and looks great, and you love it do you care whether that was expectations or something else?

You shouldn't, as this is a leisure hobby unless you're a vendor.

That sounds obvious and reasonable, but the problem is that our perceptions are actively constructed by our brains, and that process of perceptual construction is highly influenced by factors which operate at a subconscious level, and therefore almost entirely without our awareness. One of those subconscious factors is our expectations. For example, with your dinner analogy, if the same food is served in (A) a dingy restaurant with low prices and a reputation for mediocre food quality vs (B) a renowned restaurant with a celebrity chef, you and I and pretty much everyone else is very likely to believe that the food from restaurant B is clearly better, and we would be able to get quite specific about the ways in which it's better, even though it's exactly the same. We may indeed enjoy the food in restaurant B better because of our expectations, but that enjoyment would derive from our expectations rather than the food actually being better.

 

[gregorio]

[1] As well as the fact the any cable with a conductor is transmitting an analog signal; [1a] including when that analog signal is constructed in such a way as to represent digital, [1b] i.e., a square wave.
[2] A perfect square wave is not possible so the equipment is configured to translate less than perfect square waves into digital like this:
[3] The higher quality the quality of the transmission, the lower the probability of translation errors.

1. Clearly that is a false statement.
1a. Either it's an analogue signal OR it's an electrical signal that represents digital data, which is it?

2. A perfect square wave is not possible, which is why the USB protocol does NOT specify square waves!!

3. Already answered, "How many billions of digital devices are there in the world which are apparently ideal and do read USB data bit perfectly without the need for expensive cables?"

G

 

[bigshot]

Edit: Isn't editing posts fun!

I don't expect anything from more from you (I don't know who "us" is - are you speaking for some formal committee?)

You are in the Sound Science forum. You can compare your headphones to a good steak and your cable to a bottle of wine, but we don't have to pat you on the head and tell you that you are a clever boy. We get to ask you what proof you have and we get to ask you to define your terms. This isn't just another forum on the list. The rules here are different and the regular posters here are different than the rest of the site. If you don't want to play by our rules, prepare to be paddled with science. I tend to think that isn't your strongest suit.

many experience an improvement with USB cables - but explaining why takes us out of the realm of the leisure hobby of enjoying music, and into other pursuits that I believe are beyond this forum (and this hobby).

Your inability to reconcile your perceptual experience with rational thought isn't my problem, it's yours.

If I remember correctly, you've popped in here before, taken a snipe or two, and then ran off with your tail between your legs. How long before we get the pleasure of your exit again?

 

[Triode User]

1. No, ANY competently designed DAC (or other digital device) will reject any noise and only read the zeros and ones.There's always noise in a USB signal and going through a USB cable, regardless of whether it's cheap or expensive cable, either a USB DAC operates optimally with a USB signal or it's not a USB DAC. There are DACs for less than $80 which reject noise to many times below audibility, are audiophile DACs inferior to cheap DACs?

2. How many billions of digital devices are there in the world which are apparently ideal and do read USB data bit perfectly without the need for expensive cables?

3. Yep, it's amazing how people can be persuaded to part with their hard earned cash with a bit of marketing and suggestion. Loads of people handed over their extremely hard earned cash over 100 years ago for the original snake oil.

G

And that in a nutshell is why I lost patience in here before. Anyone with an ounce of an an enquiring mind might be interested in hearing the differences and then might want to investigate why those differences exist but instead we get the usual rote spewed out. I am personally insulted by 3 but it also betrays the limits of your understanding of audio systems in the real world.

Bye.

 

[bigshot]

Anyone with an ounce of an an enquiring mind might be interested in hearing the differences and then might want to investigate why those differences exist.

Wait a minute... maybe I missed something... When was it proven that differences exist? Just claiming that there is a difference and refusing to test in a way that minimizes bias isn't enough to interest me. Maybe you're more easily interested. I'm very interested in investigating things that go against the established ideas of how things work, but only if they are proven to exist first. There are too many misconceptions and blatant lies for me to be interested in stuff people don't bother to prove.

So all that being said... can you point to a controlled test that indicates that USB cables sound different?

 

[gregorio]

[1] If you've tried an expensive USB cable in your system for a few weeks and [1a] didn't hear a difference, please let us know what your system setup is, and what cable you tried.
[2] If you didn't, then just disclaim that your opinions are all amateur scientist guesses and theories that you have no actual practical experience with.

1. It doesn't take me 3 weeks to determine if a USB cable can pass a USB signal bit perfectly, just a few minutes.
1a. Again, what has hearing got to do with it, no human can hear digital data?

2. Huh? I've measured/assertaind numerous USB cables for bit perfect transfer and measurements are NOT opinions, guesses or theories! You're the one arguing opinions and not even amateur level science, nice try though!

[1] And that in a nutshell is why I lost patience in here before.
[2] Anyone with an ounce of an an enquiring mind might be interested in hearing the differences and then might want to investigate why those differences exist but instead we get the usual rote spewed out.
[3] I am personally insulted by 3 but it also betrays the limits of your understanding of audio systems in the real world.

[4] Bye.

1. Not sure I understand, you lost patience because we don't tolerate false statements here?

2. And anyone with two ounces of an enquiring mind might be interested to find out if there are any differences to hear in the first place! Stopping at one ounce isn't going to get you beyond all the marketing BS!

3. And I'm personally insulted by those so suckered by the marketing BS that they call others ignorant when they are the one's who are sadly deluded.

4. Seems like you might not be aware you're in the Sound Science sub-forum? ... Bye.

G