[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jake01 Exactly. The question is of being 'worth it'. How is a $4000 bicycle worth it? How are $10,000 CD players and $100,000 speakers worth it? They are so far up the value of diminishing returns curve that it is not even funny. Such products exist not for the 'most discerning enthusiast' but for 'the most gullible and rich exclusivist'. These products are *most of the time* only slightly better than the competition, if they indeed are better. They are only owned by people who are either too gullible or want to own something 'top of the line' or both. C'mon... we're talking about 'sound quality here'; a most subjective parameter... it is not that we're comparing the engine outputs, top speed, upholstery, etc. of two cars.

If the issue is "sound quality," which you concede is a "most subjective parameter," then how can you conclude that (a) the sound improvement is minimal to others, and (b) the improvement in sound to others is not substantial or a worthwhile investment for them, given the enjoyment they obtain from music and their financial situation? Also, what is the basis for your conclusion that such products are "only owned by people who are either gullible or want to own something 'top of the line' or both"? Do you have this unusual capacity to make judgments about what is right for others in other contexts as well, or is it limited to audio only?

P.S. Also, what explains the tendency of many new members to post comments in their first few posts that might tend to insult a not insignificant portion of the forum membership? This has always fascinated me.

 

[cerbie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by halcyon No, no, no. It's because headphone amps are a total rip off. One doesn't need more than $80 for a headphone amp and even that is expensive. Anything more is a rip off. My proof: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...opic=39106&hl= Really, everybody can believe what they want. Some believe it's worthwhile owning and using headphone amps, some don't. Some pay more, some pay less. The proof is in the eating of pudding. If you like it, who cares what the others think? Live and let live.

While that statement is clearly just being ignorant and intentially made to piss people off*, there are quite a few amps under the guy's budget (a few that get raves around here matching it, too, like Go-vibe III); yet instead, folks just assume that having enough power is all there is. It shouldn't take more than high school level physics to realize that's not all of it--it's about controlling that power.

IMO, Mike Ford gave the best response to what the OP was talking about, really (not that some of the others aren't good, but it started breaking off from the OP's question(s)).

[size=xx-small]* I don't specifically recall KikeG from before I became an inactive member over there, but it was that sort of atitude, that "I'm right, you're wrong; and I don't need evidence, but you do; and to top it off, I'm calling you on it," that finally got me out of being an active member there. I could have avoided them (luckily, they are a minority), but I also read too many threads where others got argumentatively trapped by them, as well, for no good reason (I broke the ToSes a few times, and deserved a flaming occasionally

), and it started sucking the fun out of the place. Looks like it is still that way. Oh well. Great stickies, though![/size]

 

[warpdriver]

zQUOTE=grawk]I haven't ridden a $4000 bicycle, but I can say that the $2000 road bike i've ridden is definitely worth the price difference over a $400 one, in terms of ridability. Same goes for my $1500 mountain bike vs my older $400 one. Weight, durability, comfort, features. [/QUOTE]

It's always going to be a law of diminishing returns. I've ridden a $4000 bike and a $2000 one, and I'd be hard pressed to say the $4000 is twice as good unless you put a heavy price on saving seconds. With a $2000 bike, you are getting all the best innovations but without the top level of finishing and exotic detailing that makes the $4000 bike cost the part.

This aways apply to high end goods, sure the more expensive one pays more attention to detail but that does not always mean a noticeable performance improvement. When you are at 99.8% goodness, squeezing that extra 0.1% performance always costs big money.

 

[Clutz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adhoc ...and even if they were soldered by robots, how much would it cost to set up those robots??!

[Asimov=ON]
And then what if those robots decided to attack their human rulers, and instead of making headphone amplifiers they decided to enslave the human race. That'd not only drivce up the production costs of headphone amps due to reduced production, it'd also reduce demand (as a result of the reduction of the human population) which would make a low demand item have even less demand.
[Asimov=OFF]

Sorry. I had to.

 

[nmculbreth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jake01 I dunno people; correct me where I am wrong. Research: I don't know how much money is spent here; but I think it is not a lot, especially for second and third generation versions of the product line. Parts: Do they even add up to a quarter/third of the sale price? For mass-produced equipment, they are sourced in bulk, right? Assembly: I am sure (most of) these products are not assembled by hand, are they? They're just printed circuit boards soldered by robots (?). I am guessing only a part of the physical assembly process is done by hand. Marketing/Packaging: Teensy bit, I am sure. Shipping: Generally mentioned and charged separately from the sale price of the product. Profit: You tell me. Well, if 'audiophiles' are willing to pay more, then why the heck not. *shrug*

There is a lot that does into the whole process and it costs money, if the business isn't turning a profit it ceases to exist. As others have said most of these companies aren't large and they're not cranking out a ton of units either. A member of another board I frequent was allowed to tour Grace Design's factory and took some photos and posted them on his site:

http://rsternconsulting.com/grace/

I think this kind of puts the size of some of these "big" companies in perspective.

 

[sxr71]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jake01 Firstly, thanks for your detailed post. Exactly. The question is of being 'worth it'. How is a $4000 bicycle worth it? How are $10,000 CD players and $100,000 speakers worth it? They are so far up the value of diminishing returns curve that it is not even funny. Such products exist not for the 'most discerning enthusiast' but for 'the most gullible and rich exclusivist'. These products are *most of the time* only slightly better than the competition, if they indeed are better. They are only owned by people who are either too gullible or want to own something 'top of the line' or both. C'mon... we're talking about 'sound quality here'; a most subjective parameter... it is not that we're comparing the engine outputs, top speed, upholstery, etc. of two cars. So, you'll always make and sell $3,000 amps, $10,000 CD players and $100,000 speakers, but not because they are infinitely better than the next best product in competition. You'll make and sell those products just because you will find a market for them... you'll find 10 people willing to give an arm and a leg for that infinitesimally small improvement in 'sound quality' (which a lot of the time will be just placeboic (I made it up I think) and not real). After all, who in their right minds turns away easy money, right? What does this mean for the ordinary consumer? Higher prices (even for the more down-to-earth (relatively speaking) priced stuff) - mostly because of brand name recognition; not because the product is better. Bose comes first to mind, although I don't want to go there... maybe there are some hardcore Bose enthusiasts here and sure don't want to piss any regular members off. Of course, I may be wrong, so correct me if that is the case. PS: This is not a personal attack on you Tyll, nor your products... just a general commentary. Your post is appreciated, especially the bit where you explained the costing bit (of the 'normal' priced gear, I hope).

Quite frankly it is not for you to say what is worth it, it is for the market to say. Sure some $4000 bicycles are bought by wealthy people who just have money to burn but some are bought by enthusiasts as well.

In audio there are certain brands that come to mind that seem to be targeted at the wealthy individual and not at the enthusiast. One in particular seems to have put their name on stereos in Lexus cars. Forget about the fact that most of their audio systems cost more than the car itself.

One thing you will notice about anything in life is that there are wealthy people in the world and really that is life. I might shop at Ikea and furnish my whole room for what some people will pay for a tiny nightstand. You can't say that it isn't worth it because it is to the person that bought that nightstand. You and I say it isn't worth it for us, but others with large cash reserves may think otherwise.

This is sort of off-topic but pretty much in anything in life whether it be furniture, coffee machines, clothes, or luggage there are items which most of us working class people will not find to be worth it.

As for headphone audio it really hasn't reached the crazy "heights" of loudspeaker audio and I hope it never does. Well, what do I care, I won't it buy it.

As for your argument that these "luxury" items increase the common person's cost to acquire quality goods - I don't think so. I think that there is competition at every price level and a customer base for each of those price levels. What it does do is that it creates desire in us so that we lust for things we cannot afford. Such is the way of the capitalistic system. It is important for people to focus on those things that they need and not be sidetracked by the extremely expensive luxury items in the world. If I can't afford a $1500 headphone amp, that's okay, I'm fine with it and I'll just buy a good $100 amp. Obviously there are people who can afford those expensive items and that's good for them. In all honesty this is one lesson I have learned during the process of getting my first job and then moving up the career ladder. I suppose it is a lesson that many learn during the "after college" stage of their lives. Some don't and spend their way into ruin.

 

[JahJahBinks]

Taken from a car review at Edmunds:

"Sitting at an intersection in the new 2006 BMW 750i, we're hardly surprised when another new BMW 7 Series pulls up alongside us. We're in Pacific Palisades after all, home of the eight-figure house and the six-figure personal chef. In this area, a pair of $70,000 sedans at an intersection looks as natural as a nose job. "

 

[discord]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JahJahBinks Taken from a car review at Edmunds: "Sitting at an intersection in the new 2006 BMW 750i, we're hardly surprised when another new BMW 7 Series pulls up alongside us. We're in Pacific Palisades after all, home of the eight-figure house and the six-figure personal chef. In this area, a pair of $70,000 sedans at an intersection looks as natural as a nose job. "

And BMW's are just entry level.

 

[Trogdor]

Step back moment, what does this thread add? Really?

jake01: You don't see the value in a 2k amp. Fine, no big deal.

I have spent way too much on this hobby, I will be the first to admit it. Is it worth it? This is completely a personal decision. You can give the same argument regarding wine, cars, women (and men), as well various other endeavors. Life is about choices.

 

[imported_t_s]

A very good point has been brought up - most markets have products for the enthusiasts and the mainstream. This one only has one for enthusiasts. Most enthusiast products are about 20% improvement for 200% price, which is good since it means the mainstream products are pretty darn good. This market only has an enthusiast segment, with a very very very weak "mainstream" market if you really want to stretch it. That's what bugs me, and that's also what will force me to build my own - I don't feel like I can accept the quality of the low end stuff relative to what they're still asking for them while there's no chance I can afford to even look at the high end stuff. I'm a lazy person and would avoid work if i could

but the difference is just too huge. The knowledge that I could just get off my lazy @ss, order the parts for the M3 off digikey, and spend one night with a soldering iron, I could save myself at least a cool $150 off a $350 prebuilt amp... that's what keeps me from buying it. If the difference was less, I would gladly purchase the prebuilt one instead and we're all happy.

One major barrier is the knowledge of what goes into an amp - it seems almost wrong to have to pay so much for something so simple while in the meantime I can buy say.... a video card with millions of transistors and a pcb design whose complexity that will put any amp to shame, not to mention the millions of dollars spent in r&d... for less money. I know it's an extremely unfair comparison for the many reasons stated earlier... but I still can't get over it in my head. An SMT machine would be able to build a fully working amp PCB in about 10 seconds, and now add a potentimeter, chasis, power supply (you can buy very decent regulated ones from electronics stores for $20 bucks - I just checked today)... and you got yourself a fine solid state amp. I'm convinced that if the market size for amps were as large as cd/dvd players, something like the gilmore lite would cost well under $100, and that number is probably very conservative. Something like the glite would be considered "mainstream" quality and something I'd be more than happy to pay a mainstream price for. You can still go sell the headroom max balanced for a premium price... and there will still be a market for those people... but I can feel good about getting something of adequate quality at a mass market consumer level price.

Every consumer needs to buy an amp! Make all your friends buy one! We're all better off in the long run...

 

[imported_t_s]

Quote:

Originally Posted by halcyon No, no, no. http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...opic=39106&hl=

Hmm... that's a good point. I was considering just using a mixer since they have more than enough power and that's what studios use. Anyone here run cans out of a mixer? I gotta give this a try... there's one of those behringers off ebay for 20 bucks. lol.

 

[MikeW]

hehe this thread reminds me of a time in my life when I got into flashlights. I bet most of you folk would think spending 350$ on a flashlight insane. But visist the candle power forums cummunity for a few weeks and well.. sorry about your wallet

Flashlight's mirror amps in a funny way. There are alot of DIY designs, and there are new technologies, and expensive lights.. HID's, LED's Luxeon star LED's, etc.. hehe so funny. Im not into flashlights anymore, but the parallel's are pretty hilarious. But alas I suppose it's that way for any enthusiast item.

I remember when I got my ARC LSH-P(One of the first Luxeon LED's).. I had some fun times.. imagine pulling out a pocket flashlight the size of your thumb and outshining a 2D cell Maglite that weighs 3 pounds and is half an arms length long hehe.. people are like wow where did you get that thing!

Regards,
Mike

 

[Naris]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW hehe this thread reminds me of a time in my life when I got into flashlights. I bet most of you folk would think spending 350$ on a flashlight insane. But visist the candle power forums cummunity for a few weeks and well.. sorry about your wallet Flashlight's mirror amps in a funny way. There are alot of DIY designs, and there are new technologies, and expensive lights.. HID's, LED's Luxeon star LED's, etc.. hehe so funny. Im not into flashlights anymore, but the parallel's are pretty hilarious. But alas I suppose it's that way for any enthusiast item. Regards, Mike

*In Dr. Evil voice*
Flashlights... riiiight...

EDIT: Okay, seriously... who would pay that much for a flashlight? I mean... maybe it they make it bright enough to see a decent way isn't that the only point?

 

[MikeW]

I never paid that much for a flashlight myself.. but my ARC was 120$. It's kinda like headfi.. I just wanted a decent flashlight for my money one day and I stumbled onto candlepower and started reading.. I got sucked into the community and before I knew it, I was reading the damn forum for hours on end.. after a week of that I felt almost obligated to buy the FOTM flashlights, just to be part of the community. There are some damn cool flashlights out there too btw

An interesting tidbit.. in the flashlight world Maglite=Bose. hehe

 

[sxr71]

Quote:

Originally Posted by t_s A very good point has been brought up - most markets have products for the enthusiasts and the mainstream. This one only has one for enthusiasts. Most enthusiast products are about 20% improvement for 200% price, which is good since it means the mainstream products are pretty darn good. This market only has an enthusiast segment, with a very very very weak "mainstream" market if you really want to stretch it. That's what bugs me, and that's also what will force me to build my own - I don't feel like I can accept the quality of the low end stuff relative to what they're still asking for them while there's no chance I can afford to even look at the high end stuff. I'm a lazy person and would avoid work if i could but the difference is just too huge. The knowledge that I could just get off my lazy @ss, order the parts for the M3 off digikey, and spend one night with a soldering iron, I could save myself at least a cool $150 off a $350 prebuilt amp... that's what keeps me from buying it. If the difference was less, I would gladly purchase the prebuilt one instead and we're all happy. One major barrier is the knowledge of what goes into an amp - it seems almost wrong to have to pay so much for something so simple while in the meantime I can buy say.... a video card with millions of transistors and a pcb design whose complexity that will put any amp to shame, not to mention the millions of dollars spent in r&d... for less money. I know it's an extremely unfair comparison for the many reasons stated earlier... but I still can't get over it in my head. An SMT machine would be able to build a fully working amp PCB in about 10 seconds, and now add a potentimeter, chasis, power supply (you can buy very decent regulated ones from electronics stores for $20 bucks - I just checked today)... and you got yourself a fine solid state amp. I'm convinced that if the market size for amps were as large as cd/dvd players, something like the gilmore lite would cost well under $100, and that number is probably very conservative. Something like the glite would be considered "mainstream" quality and something I'd be more than happy to pay a mainstream price for. You can still go sell the headroom max balanced for a premium price... and there will still be a market for those people... but I can feel good about getting something of adequate quality at a mass market consumer level price. Every consumer needs to buy an amp! Make all your friends buy one! We're all better off in the long run...

You desire a $300 amp because you think the $60 ones are low quality and not worthy of using. How do you know this? You don't. You got your ideas from what people here say, and here you are surrounded by people who are willing to throw considerable sums of money to get what they feel they need. If the Glimore Lite did not exist or you did not know of its existence you would be happy with a $60 CMoy.

On another note, if Gilmore Lites were selling like iPods then it really would be at your local Best Buy for $49.99. However 99% of iPod buyers do not care to lug another object around. Remember you chose your hobby. There is no mainstream in this hobby.

The Cmoy is as mainstream as it gets in these parts.

As for building an M3 either you work to build it or work to pay for it built. Either way you work for what you eat. If you think $150 is too much to earn to build an M3 then start building them for $120 labor and you will capture the market for pre-built M3s.