[Jahn]

you can get a good portable amp for around 50 bucks. imho that's not that expensive. you can get a good home amp for around $150 if you are really looking (DIY pimeta anyone? used headsave Classic?) and be happy and walk away and never look back. you can pair these amps with cans ranging from 60 bucks (SR60) to 200 bucks (SR225/HF-1) and be a happy listener - and the amp was basically the same price as the can. same goes for source - from a $25 chaintech to a $100 EMU 0404 soundcard, that range is very comfortable and you can live with it nicely.

Of course you can look up thousand dollar amps and say "that cost more than headphones!" but then you can do the same with cans and pair a Sony R10 with a cmoy and say "oh, well maybe that isn't always the case."

 

[EdipisReks]

headphone gear is expensive for the same reason that speaker gear is expensive: some of us are willing to pay it to get the sound we want.

 

[raisin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedLeader Some very good points made here, the mass-produced is basically the main reason. Pick your favourite amp. Go buy all of the parts for it, including PCB. And get that PCB manufactured for you instead of buying it from someone else. Then get the schematics that someone else researched, tested and wrote up. Now you have to be able to understand and follow those schematics. You solder everything together (with a good iron, solder, hs, etc) and when you plug it into your bench psu, something doesnt work. Now get out your scope and sweep generator. So you've finally got it fixed. Add up all your costs, and then your labour costs. Then put in that you've got to make some profit on it for it to be worthwhile. It makes perfect sense, and yes it does suck.

Very well put, Redleader, some believe it's all so easy, and the profit tremendous.

 

[halcyon]

No, no, no.

It's because headphone amps are a total rip off.

One doesn't need more than $80 for a headphone amp and even that is expensive. Anything more is a rip off.

My proof:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...opic=39106&hl=

Really, everybody can believe what they want. Some believe it's worthwhile owning and using headphone amps, some don't. Some pay more, some pay less.

The proof is in the eating of pudding.

If you like it, who cares what the others think?

Live and let live.

 

[Andrea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by halcyon No, no, no. It's because headphone amps are a total rip off. One doesn't need more than $80 for a headphone amp and even that is expensive. Anything more is a rip off. My proof: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...opic=39106&hl= Really, everybody can believe what they want. Some believe it's worthwhile owning and using headphone amps, some don't. Some pay more, some pay less. The proof is in the eating of pudding. If you like it, who cares what the others think? Live and let live.

"Live and let live" can always be lifted to a higher standard

 

[grawk]

Factors that affect price exclusive of labor and materials:

# of employees
marketting (trips from montana to NYC to show off amps, for example)
warranty
satisfaction guarantees
maintaining stock
design work
advertising (hifi magazines don't give away their ads)
research and development

and yes, profit

We live in a world where things like housing, clothing, food, and audio equipment cost money. It's reasonable for someone who's making desirable goods to expect to make a comfortable living.

 

[warpdriver]

Any item with low production numbers is going to cost a lot more relative to their parts cost. That's just a given.

Headphone amps will never be a commodity item because 99.999% of people cannot hear or do not care about the difference. So that 0.001% of music lovers have to pay for the R&D, labour and support costs and of course profit that keep the business viable for headphone amp makers.

If Sony or some other manufacturer sold headamps with every Walkman they sold, I'm sure the cost of even a high end headamp would be 1/4 of what they are now.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Probably the biggest thing is market size. It's really hard to imagine the difference between, let's say, portable hard drive players and headphone amps. iPod is selling at a rate of about 13 million units/year right now; let's say all harddrive players is 20 million. Let's say HeadRoom has 20% of the HeadPhone amp market and we do 10 amps of various prices/day; that's ~3,500 amps/year or ~18,000 for the whole market. That means that 1000 times more HD players than amps roughly. So, we amp makers never really get to the economy of scale thing at all compared to the big boys.

We are getting close to doing our first automated board building runs (yes, they are still all hand built) for our AirHead/BitHead. The move should allow us to drop prices by around 30% on our low-end products. This first step of product automation is no where near the efficiency level of the big guys. We still spend significant resources on set-up; that fact that we are just at the level where it make sense (if we did ten time more we might get an additiona 15% more efficiency out of job shop help); the big guys have levels of automation in building electronicsthat we don't have, but they also have levels of automation in inventory control, mass purchasing, distribution, sales, marketing human resources ect that make them more efficient as a whole.

Really all of the above expands only the low end part of the spectrum. Look at stereo equipment: of course you can buy a portabel cd player that costs $29, but Wadia still makes and sells a $10,000 cd player. Sure you can buy a big boom box that plays loud for $89, but there are still $100,000 Wilson speakers.

Headphone amps are missing the $19 headphone amp and the best you can do at the moment is maybe $59. But even when there is a 20 dollar headphone amp we'll still be selling $3000 amps. Just because a Huffy 10-speed is $69 doesn't mean that a pimped out Cannondale isn't worth the $4000 you'd spend on it.

The only problem with the headphone world is that it has it's entusiast marketplace witout a corresponding consumer market. (But it will if Head-Fi keeps growing the way it is.) Mountain Bike Racing has it's little kids peddling to school. Formula 1 and Nascar have their ordinary people driving to work. High-End headphone listening has it's earbuds on the bus, but! The headphone amp thing hasn't propigated out into that market yet.

As far as cost of parts in the box, as mentioned above, we take DIRECT COSTS (parts and the direct labor associated with building it) times 3. As our selling price. My understanding is that most similar manufacturers take 2X. But then the consumer pays for distribution and retail sales, which ad another (roughly) 20% and 30% respectively. When we take our extra 1X for selling direct we have to pay a web programmer, a marketing communications manager, a media tech (who take photos and such), a copy writer (me and Jorge), and the on giong support of sales and purchasing persons to keep numbers up to date. Plus order processing, packaging, and shipment (we do a lot of free shipping).

The internet has distribution and retailing costs trending downward as internet sales and marketing efficiencies has been realized. To that I'll add that we see competative price pressures and rarely get our full 3X. Contributors here, for example, get 10% discount which is actually 30% of our retailing budget.

All-in-all, I'd say the price of headphone amps is pretty much on target. You guys are a hard crowd to please who would just as soon build there own amps if we don't price them low enough.

 

[sxr71]

Quote:

Originally Posted by halcyon No, no, no. It's because headphone amps are a total rip off. One doesn't need more than $80 for a headphone amp and even that is expensive. Anything more is a rip off. My proof: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...opic=39106&hl= Really, everybody can believe what they want. Some believe it's worthwhile owning and using headphone amps, some don't. Some pay more, some pay less. The proof is in the eating of pudding. If you like it, who cares what the others think? Live and let live.

I read the post written by "axon" in that thread and I think that post summarizes what I have learned since getting into the headphone side of Audiophilia. Getting into the headphone audiophilia and going back to being a poor student again has completely changed my views on audio.

I used to be one of those "audiophiles" who lusted after those typical audiophile goodies like Black Gate Caps, Stepped Atenuators, and Point to Point wiring among other things. I had amassed a home system running into the several thousands when I was working.

Now I am listening to this amp (which I won't bother naming) which features surface mount components, a dinky little volume control, and of all things an Op-Amp in the signal path, yet I haven't heard anything this transparent before! I will concede that perhaps if the same circuit design was built with Black Gates all around, a stepped attenuator and point to point wiring it will likely sound a little better but at what cost?

The funny thing I noticed in headphone audiophilia is that in the case of many amps people will spend hundreds to get those "audiophile goodies" in their amps yet they won't bat an eyelid at having an Op-Amp in the signal path which is a major violation of those "audiophile golden rules," the 47 Labs Gaincard notwithstanding.

I have certainly learned enough that when I graduate and "redo" my home system I will look at things a lot differently and focus a lot more on value and absolute sound quality without paying much regard to those objective characteristics we think make a big difference but probably don't make enough difference to be worth the huge extra cost.

I think that for the OP if you can't afford spending hundreds of dollars on a headphone amp then don't. You will probably do just as well by carefully selecting components that cost far less by listening to them if you can or taking the advice of more value conscious posters here. Some builders really offer a fair price for their products. As for the more expensive products keep in mind that there are people who value that extra increase in sound quality for ten times the cost and those are the people who buy their products. They can afford it and feel that it is worth it. You cannot argue with what people choose to do with their money. You can feel otherwise if you choose and buy whatever you like. It's not like the cheapest good-sounding headphone amp is $500. There are many options and you have the right to exercise yours. Understand that people are coming from different backgrounds and some might view a $1000 headphone amp as peanuts as their home amp is $10,000 and probably doesn't even provide as good an experience in certain respects. All because headphone listening is much more controlled - with no room issues to contend with. They will be happy with their $1000 amp and you will be happy with your $50 amp.

The bottom line is: if you don't want to enter the $1000 headphone amp realm then don't.

 

[jake01]

Firstly, thanks for your detailed post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens Really all of the above expands only the low end part of the spectrum. Look at stereo equipment: of course you can buy a portabel cd player that costs $29, but Wadia still makes and sells a $10,000 cd player. Sure you can buy a big boom box that plays loud for $89, but there are still $100,000 Wilson speakers. Headphone amps are missing the $19 headphone amp and the best you can do at the moment is maybe $59. But even when there is a 20 dollar headphone amp we'll still be selling $3000 amps. Just because a Huffy 10-speed is $69 doesn't mean that a pimped out Cannondale isn't worth the $4000 you'd spend on it.

Exactly. The question is of being 'worth it'. How is a $4000 bicycle worth it? How are $10,000 CD players and $100,000 speakers worth it? They are so far up the value of diminishing returns curve that it is not even funny. Such products exist not for the 'most discerning enthusiast' but for 'the most gullible and rich exclusivist'. These products are *most of the time* only slightly better than the competition, if they indeed are better. They are only owned by people who are either too gullible or want to own something 'top of the line' or both. C'mon... we're talking about 'sound quality here'; a most subjective parameter... it is not that we're comparing the engine outputs, top speed, upholstery, etc. of two cars.

So, you'll always make and sell $3,000 amps, $10,000 CD players and $100,000 speakers, but not because they are infinitely better than the next best product in competition. You'll make and sell those products just because you will find a market for them... you'll find 10 people willing to give an arm and a leg for that infinitesimally small improvement in 'sound quality' (which a lot of the time will be just placeboic (I made it up I think) and not real). After all, who in their right minds turns away easy money, right?

What does this mean for the ordinary consumer? Higher prices (even for the more down-to-earth (relatively speaking) priced stuff) - mostly because of brand name recognition; not because the product is better. Bose comes first to mind, although I don't want to go there... maybe there are some hardcore Bose enthusiasts here and sure don't want to piss any regular members off.

Of course, I may be wrong, so correct me if that is the case.

PS: This is not a personal attack on you Tyll, nor your products... just a general commentary. Your post is appreciated, especially the bit where you explained the costing bit (of the 'normal' priced gear, I hope).

 

[grawk]

I haven't ridden a $4000 bicycle, but I can say that the $2000 road bike i've ridden is definitely worth the price difference over a $400 one, in terms of ridability. Same goes for my $1500 mountain bike vs my older $400 one. Weight, durability, comfort, features.

If it's not worth it to you, fine. Don't dismiss others choices because it's too expensive for you, tho. Sure, each step gives you approximately half as much improvement for twice as much cost as the previous step. That's how life works. Some people spend $50,000 on a car, some people spend $2,000,000 on a house, some people spend $20 on a cigar. Life is about choices.

 

[Jahn]

Certain luxury items aren't worth it, I agree. Like sticking crystals all over your iPod case and charging thousands. No thanks. (although it's worth it for the fashion conscious who need to keep in the oneupsmanship game).

But things like a $4K mountain bike? Certain folks would consider that getting off cheap, if that bike is competition-ready. A lot of the price goes into tiny pricey tweaks that give that little leg up on the others.

Same thing for amps. I'm sorry to say this, but a cmoy will get utterly destroyed by, say, a Melos. Will a Melos get utterly destroyed by something 4 times as pricey? maybe yes, maybe no. But odds are, it will be bettered by it. And folks will pay through the nose for that last bit of sonic superiority - it's not smoke and mirrors, they are expensive real world improvements to something you love and may have the cash to aspire to.

 

[grandenigma1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk I haven't ridden a $4000 bicycle, but I can say that the $2000 road bike i've ridden is definitely worth the price difference over a $400 one, in terms of ridability. Same goes for my $1500 mountain bike vs my older $400 one. Weight, durability, comfort, features. If it's not worth it to you, fine. Don't dismiss others choices because it's too expensive for you, tho. Sure, each step gives you approximately half as much improvement for twice as much cost as the previous step. That's how life works. Some people spend $50,000 on a car, some people spend $2,000,000 on a house, some people spend $20 on a cigar. Life is about choices.

such as is my education at a private college costing $30k a year really that much better then one at a community college costing about $4k a year

as for the bikes (and everything else for that matter) it makes a huge difference ... I use to race XC competitively and when I got hooked up with my Klein over my previous ride, the Klein being about $1,500 more then my previous bike, I shaved literally a few second to maybe a minute or two off my times and that jumped me from second and third finishes to first and seconds.

people simply have different priorities and expectations... why my mom spends so much on stupid baskets or purses is beyond me but who am I to talk when I spend the same on headphones and amps…ok and my Jeep, and snowboarding, and ok im just crazy I guess!

 

[PFKMan23]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grandenigma1 such as is my education at a private college costing $30k a year really that much better then one at a community college costing about $4k a year

Depends on the private college and depends on the community college. Personally my CC is pretty decent.

 

[Chri5peed]

In some cases its because they fit a huge amount of technology in such a small space, plus Xin amps at least are each built by the skilled hands of Dr Xin himself.

Plus headphone amps are getting into the world of the audiophile, where cost doesn't necessarily equal value.