[music_4321]

Quote:

Don't act all holier than thou on me. I don't have to trust you or the internet sources. I'm trusting what I saw. I think that is more than enough. 

 Everyone is entitled to their opinion. That is mine and if you don't agree with it fine. Don't tell me to go read an internet article where it is just someone else's opinion.
 
Edit: And you criticize others for being a brick wall? After reading your more recent comments, I must say that you are as hardheaded as the rest of them/us heh.

If I suggested you and others to go and check a few articles here and there, what I meant by that was 'Go and learn a little about the sport before you pass judgement or make sweeping statements on things you hardly know anything about'.
 
If I see two chess players and I only know a little about chess and I notice one of the players has taken more pieces from the other player, does that mean the player with more pieces on the chessboard will win? Well, if you know about chess, then the answer is not so clear-cut. Football is not like chess, but there are elements of the game that go unnoticed by those who don't know much about the game.
 
But what's the point of me saying this to you and others when your whole attitude is just "You're arrogant or holier than thou. Listen, I have my opinion and you have yours and that's all there is to it. Who do you think you are?"
 
The fact that you enjoy one game and not another doesn't always mean that in actual fact the games in question were really that good/ bad/ boring. It'd be far more honest for you to say "I don't know much about the sport, but from from the little that I know I think/ I thought..."
 
And yes, even experts disagree, of course, but at least they know what it is they're talking about.

 

[DDVX]

What makes you so sure that I don't know what I'm talking about? You have no idea who I am, how long I've played football, or how long I've watched it. THAT is why I think you're arrogant.

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

What makes you so sure that I don't know what I'm talking about? You have no idea who I am, how long I've played football, or how long I've watched it. THAT is why I think you're arrogant.

Your previous posts. In fact they say more about you than about your lack of knowledge for the sport. I don't know exactly who you are and what you're like, but I can tell, amongst other things, that you have no experience whatsoever either playing the sport itself or having watched a decent amount of matches from decent teams. And I can tell more from you from reading a couple of your posts. The fact I haven't met you personally doesn't mean I can't see parts of what you are and who you are.
 
Yes, for all I know you could say: "You know what, you konw nothing about me. Hey, in fact, I'm Brazilian and I've played football for well over 30 years. And guess what? I played for Brazil next to Pele & Garrincha in 1970 beating Italy 4-1 in the final in Mexico City. Oh yeah, and BTW, my children are professional footballers as well, one of them plays for Barcelona, another one for Real Madrid, one for Milan and yet another for Man Utd. There!"
 
I'd just say that your posts prove none of that to be true and that your posts show complete ignorance of football.
 
That's all I've got to say to you.

 

[JxK]

Personally, I'm a bit divided on the game. The dutch played some very rough, dirty football. It was not an enjoyable game to watch, and it didn't reflect well on the sport. On the other hand, their tactics were undeniably effective. Spain was clearly the better team, and they stopped their greatest weapon- that amazing passing. The dutch weren't able to convert a couple of counterattacks, but they were able to mostly stop or slow down Spain.
 
If they had managed to hold out just a few more minutes, they'd have taken the game to the penalty shootout, where it truly is anyone's game. The philosophy of the team from the start was all about practicality, and maybe their performance against the superior Spain was simple, ugly pragmatism at work. "If we can't win playing football, we'll win by beating them into submission."
 
Whatever your thoughts on their play, it was undeniably, frustratingly effective.

 

[music_4321]

For those who said Iniesta was a great Hollywood actor -- with the likes, perhaps, of Antonio Banderas --, here's some of the 'make-up' he put on after the match to make it seem like the Dutch were not exatly exercising fair play.
 

 

[DDVX]

Well it's obvious that you aren't going to budge either way, so I'll let you think what you want. But I think you shouldn't be so quick to talk down on others for not agreeing with you. A bit immature.

 

[gooky]

Wow guys, it's testy around here.  Maybe instead of insulting each other, we should just talk about the game...  I'll just say, I think playing physical isn't a crime; should Holland let Spain pass them off the field, like Germany?  Why should the be criticized for fighting for the midfield?  And yes, it was a bad challenge from De Jong, but it doesn't make the whole concept wrong.  For everyone who says that Holland should not be physical, what exactly would you have done differently?  They threw the dice, they took their chances, and unfortunately for them, it didn't come up right.  But I think it could have easily been the other way around.  Just ask Mourinho.  I also fall into the camp that thinks Spaniards waving their imaginary yellow cards is wrong, (that is outside the game itself) and that Iniesta is really tricky.  Funny how we are so clearly divided, huh?
I was pretty happy though, when I read that Cesc dedicated the win to Arsenal fans and players, but then I saw on Sky Sports, some Spanish players putting the Barcelona jersey on Cesc.  Reina was helping too, which doesn't make a lot of sense, being a Liverpool player; why would he care?  Anyway, that was sort of sad to see, from the Arsenal point of view.  Spain winning is worrisome for Arsenal, but at least it drives his price up, right?

 

[smeerkaas]

Congratulations to Spain, good game, they are deserved winners.
 
It was a rough game (especially by Holland, but not only by Holland) the kick by De Jong was horrible. I think the Ref made a mess of it, he should have halted the rough play ( sending de jong off might have done the trick). He made some bad calls (puyol holding robben back when he was passed him, the obvious corner) and altough the Netherlands deserved a red card, the one for Heitinga seemed a bit harsh.
 
This game could have gone either way but Spain did enough to deserve their win.
 
And with Spain finally securing a world cup, Holland is now officially the best team which has never won the cup.
 
I'm afraid we'll never will....

 

[music_4321]

^^ I agree Heitinga should not have got a red card, but a couple other Dutch players should have  got one earlier in the game. Also agree about the Puyol thing & the corner.
 
I still remember the incredible - and I mean truly incredible - Dutch team of 1974 and how they so much deserved to win that World Cup that year but didn't. I, and thousands of people, were so disappointed, even angry I'd say, as they were displaying an utterly innovative way of playing. The Germans beat Holland 2-1 in the final but didn't play that well. By 1978 I think Argentina did deserve to beat the Dutch in the final and win the World Cup although the Dutch were still very good.
 
I also remember the Ajax team of the early 70s, they were simply stunning.
 
The current Dutch team is, in my view, only a shadow of the 1974 squad. What would Holland do these days without Robben? They depend so much on him, almost like how Argentina depended on Maradona in 1986 in Mexico. The current Spanish team remind me of the 'total football' concept developed by Holland in those days.

 

[EddieE]

The biggest loser of the final was refereeing in general, because Webb's performance will only add to the negative attitude against referees sadly. Webb was awfull and it was no wonder that the crowd was booing at him at the end. He booked too many players, didnt see trough some theater of players, was inconsistent and was indirectly responsible for the Spainish goal (obvious corner, but he gave a goalkick which led to the goal, so lots of whatifs there). His decisions slightly favoured Spain (too many yellow cards for Holland, no bookings for schwalbes from Spain and them asking for cards and Iniesta got away with blatant charging of Van Bommel with no football around) but Holland didnt loose because of this. He just killed the match :< 

 
Are you kidding me?
 
Which of the yellow cards was not for a yellow card offense?
 
There is no "set amount" of cards that should be given in a match - there are set things players can do to be awarded one, and if they keep on doing them, they keep on getting cards.
 
Yeah he did miss a couple of fouls but that is hardly surprising in a game that was typified by a foul every couple of minutes - in most cases from the Dutch.
 
What was he supposed to do? Say:

"Oh well I've already given six yellow cards - I can't give any more so I'll just let the Dutch getting away with kicking the crap out of Spain for the rest of the match"
 
I'm not even against the way the Dutch played it - they knew Spain were better than them so they tried to stop them from playing. It may have made a dull match from a neutral perspective but I can totally get their reasoning and they are entitled to try and win the match rather than let Spain make mincemeat of them just so Cruyff won't say they played "anti-football" at the end of it...
 
But don't blame the referee - you got that many yellow cards because you committed that many yellow card offenses (AT LEAST) and you got away with a pretty blatant straight red as well!

 

[Dzjudz]

Also, now that the World Cup is over, can they please take that white guilt Coca-Cola commercial off the radio (that waving flags song, wow that has some terrible lyrics)?

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

The biggest loser of the final was refereeing in general, because Webb's performance will only add to the negative attitude against referees sadly. Webb was awfull and it was no wonder that the crowd was booing at him at the end. He booked too many players, didnt see trough some theater of players, was inconsistent and was indirectly responsible for the Spainish goal (obvious corner, but he gave a goalkick which led to the goal, so lots of whatifs there). His decisions slightly favoured Spain (too many yellow cards for Holland, no bookings for schwalbes from Spain and them asking for cards and Iniesta got away with blatant charging of Van Bommel with no football around) but Holland didnt loose because of this. He just killed the match :< 

 
Are you kidding me?
 
Which of the yellow cards was not for a yellow card offense?
 
There is no "set amount" of cards that should be given in a match - there are set things players can do to be awarded one, and if they keep on doing them, they keep on getting cards.
 
Yeah he did miss a couple of fouls but that is hardly surprising in a game that was typified by a foul every couple of minutes - in most cases from the Dutch.
 
What was he supposed to do? Say:

"Oh well I've already given six yellow cards - I can't give any more so I'll just let the Dutch getting away with kicking the crap out of Spain for the rest of the match"
 
I'm not even against the way the Dutch played it - they knew Spain were better than them so they tried to stop them from playing. It may have made a dull match from a neutral perspective but I can totally get their reasoning and they are entitled to try and win the match rather than let Spain make mincemeat of them just so Cruyff won't say they played "anti-football" at the end of it...
 
But don't blame the referee - you got that many yellow cards because you committed that many yellow card offenses (AT LEAST) and you got away with a pretty blatant straight red as well!

Couldn't agree more.

 

[71877]

 
Quote:

Are you kidding me?
 
Which of the yellow cards was not for a yellow card offense?
 
There is no "set amount" of cards that should be given in a match - there are set things players can do to be awarded one, and if they keep on doing them, they keep on getting cards.
 
Yeah he did miss a couple of fouls but that is hardly surprising in a game that was typified by a foul every couple of minutes - in most cases from the Dutch.
 
What was he supposed to do? Say:

"Oh well I've already given six yellow cards - I can't give any more so I'll just let the Dutch getting away with kicking the crap out of Spain for the rest of the match"
 
I'm not even against the way the Dutch played it - they knew Spain were better than them so they tried to stop them from playing. It may have made a dull match from a neutral perspective but I can totally get their reasoning and they are entitled to try and win the match rather than let Spain make mincemeat of them just so Cruyff won't say they played "anti-football" at the end of it...
 
But don't blame the referee - you got that many yellow cards because you committed that many yellow card offenses (AT LEAST) and you got away with a pretty blatant straight red as well!

I said van Bommel got indeed away with a 2nd yellow card, but for example the 2nd yellow for heitinga was on the harsh side and some 'obstruction' was booked too, and there were some other situations where the ref was a bit too quick to book a Spanish (they recieved 5 yellow cards for minor fouls!) or Dutch player. And in some other situations he didnt do anything at all or only for one side (only Dutch recieved yellow cards for talking for example), which didnt help either.
 
I dont blame the ref for the Dutch losing, nor for some of the yellow cards, but he shouldve been in control to prevent this amount of cards (Culina was the master in match control to give a good example of how to properly lead a game and Irmatov was kinda good at it this WC). This already happened before in 2006 with Holland - Portugal. Ivanov wasnt in control and allowed the mess to let happen and could only draw more cards to stay consistent (at least he stayed that :s). Of course there is no quota on the amount of yellow cards but you can control it as a referee.
 
Just drawing a lot of cards for hard play does not lead to more fair play sadly, just to more cards

 

[smeerkaas]

Quote:

Are you kidding me?  
Which of the yellow cards was not for a yellow card offense?
 
There is no "set amount" of cards that should be given in a match - there are set things players can do to be awarded one, and if they keep on doing them, they keep on getting cards.
 
Yeah he did miss a couple of fouls but that is hardly surprising in a game that was typified by a foul every couple of minutes - in most cases from the Dutch.
 
What was he supposed to do? Say:

"Oh well I've already given six yellow cards - I can't give any more so I'll just let the Dutch getting away with kicking the crap out of Spain for the rest of the match"
 

 
I agree that every offense worthy of a yellow card should be punished by one. However, as a referee, if you have to give so many yellow cards, you've lost control of the match. Both Spain and Holland got away with some fouls (de jong e.g.) and therefore the rough play continued and intensified. Nationalist feelings aside, I think the game would be more enjoyable to watch if the referee had a better performance.
 
The goal was a result of a couple of mistakes in succession by the referee , but the Netherlands already lost the game before 116th minute. Allthough I don't think the referee had a very good day, he is not to blame for their (our) loss. 
 
*edit Gundogan beat me to it, I mostly agree with him

 

[sinquito]

I think that now that the WC has ended, its time to close this thread, mostly because some guys doesnt get along to well.