When is enough, enough?

[Hutnicks]

Most people who go to the barber shop get a haircut?
How can somebody go to the beach and not look at the girls.


I could not do it, especially if the headphones are low cost and are promoted as the second coming?

Things change as do perceptions. Looking is not buying. (Look up the origins of that barbers pole)
 
"Second Coming" for me has become an entertainment point. Inward groan and rolling up of the sleeves to steel myself for some hyperant about how the 49.99 asian uberphone destroys the Stax 009 in every area.
 
 Just take a step back and look at the industry and the phones that are still at the top of the heap after decades and use that as the metric for just how much of a game changer all the new stuff really is.
Indulge yourself in some light entertainment and step into the T50 mods and measures thread or the Orthodynamic roundup thread to see just how far these big new "advances" have really taken things in the last 30 years or so.
 
 I am not suggesting anyone crawl into a hole and ignore the current state of affairs. I am merely suggesting that we begin re establishing our value systems and start putting our thumb over the bright blinding sun in the sky known as "marketing"  so that we can make a more rational assessment of whats there.
 
 Do that, and you may well find that you already have "Enough".

 

[Sonic Defender]

Personally, there is a correlation I'm sure for me in regards to when I'm buying and how much I post. It isn't a completely linear relationship, but it is there. I'm quite addicted to novelty and I really like discovering new sound signatures, even when they are sometimes only modestly different than what I have. I do also tend to agree that overall it is hard to completely block out marketing and hype. I think many of us hate the idea of an affordable, flagship, game changing design passing us by. I'm trying to make peace with this consumption, but it is hard for sure.
 
I at least comfort myself knowing that this gear will last for years when well taken care of, and is likely to be owned and enjoyed by a few people as I always sell when it is still in tip-top shape. I now think about how un-recyclable much of it is and that bothers me. For about three years I ran a local electronics recycling drop off center and had the opportunity to learn a little about the benefits and challenges. Things like headphones have very little that is actively recycled and I'm sure 95% of their content end up in landfill when it is all done. I might be being a little pessimistic, but I doubt it. All that unstamped plastic for instance, many municipal streams simply throw it out as it isn't worth the risk of contamination, but perhaps in some places that isn't the case?

 

[CanadianMaestro]

  For the past month or so, I have came to realize that I might need to stop the quest for better audio or headphones in my case. So I have put a stop on acquiring more headphones or audio equipment. I was wondering if anyone else also have put a stop on getting more audio equipment, because it started to feel like it is getting a bit out of hand?
 
Basically with better headphone it will requires better sound source and better amp to drive it. So those cost all add up. Also I am not sure if a HD800 is really worth a few hundred bucks more than HD598. I mean sure there is more details and stuff, but really how much more does those details impact our enjoyment of music?
 
However last year I have acquired some broken and low cost headphone to mod or fix, so this should keep me busy for a while.
 
So I am wondering if anyone else also hit this wall and have determine that it is not worth it anymore?
 
I would love to hear someone else's experience.

 
I am end-game with HPs and with amps, both for my HPs, and for my floor rig. Was never a frequent "upgrader" or addicted to "novelty". In the end, my expenditures on music (recordings and live concerts) outstrip my gear spending.
 
Some articles of potential relevance:
 
http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/are_you_a_sharpener_or_a_leveler/index.html#TLQrgIiKzqvVyZKe.97
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/from-the-editor-the-law-of-accelerating-returns/
 
 
cheers

 

[Sonic Defender]

The age old question of why do we do what we do? We all have different thresholds for novelty seeking, and we all have related thresholds for how well we tolerate boredom. That is why I still think a great deal of this audio hobby isn't as much about the sound as it is about having a new experience based around the sound. Sure the sound is the most obvious and salient reason why we buy gear, but as we have all been saying and noticing, the whole experience, every facet of consumption right down to design and tactile stimulation is equally important, possibly more. There is evidence that if people see a more expensive looking, well designed exterior the sound that we perceive will be rated as higher quality as well.
 
I would bet if we took the same guts from one well designed, but affordable amp, put it inside various cases from different companies, the really beautiful cases from boutique manufacturers would sound better to most people in a sighted test against say a cheap looking Wal Mart house brand case.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

For me, it was always about the sound. I guess my brain's dopaminergic pleasure circuits aren't as cranked up as others'.
 
C'est la vie. Vive la Difference.

 

[fleasbaby]

  The age old question of why do we do what we do? We all have different thresholds for novelty seeking, and we all have related thresholds for how well we tolerate boredom. That is why I still think a great deal of this audio hobby isn't as much about the sound as it is about having a new experience based around the sound. Sure the sound is the most obvious and salient reason why we buy gear, but as we have all been saying and noticing, the whole experience, every facet of consumption right down to design and tactile stimulation is equally important, possibly more. There is evidence that if people see a more expensive looking, well designed exterior the sound that we perceive will be rated as higher quality as well.
 
I would bet if we took the same guts from one well designed, but affordable amp, put it inside various cases from different companies, the really beautiful cases from boutique manufacturers would sound better to most people in a sighted test against say a cheap looking Wal Mart house brand case.

 
This is a great thread...
 
@Sonic Defender you might find this article interesting:
 
http://www.leonardo-guitar-research.com/research-report-lgrp
 
(a study that found how tonewoods in guitars sound perhaps isn't as important as how they look)
 
I got into modding, and then turning my own cups, as I started to feel that I was perhaps being charged not for quality or materials, but reputation and pricing was being inflated based on demand in my niche areas of interest. The key here is, enough is never really enough as long as you are interested in a chosen area. I found a way to keep exploring despite my distaste for the price-gouging and marketing madness.
 
I will always be looking for good records. I will always be trying new things on my lathe. I will always want to try new drivers/mods/headbands/pads, etc, etc because I am interested. The day I lose interest (and there are some days I am definitely not in the mood at all), is the day that "enough is enough". Some might lose interest one day because they realize they are being sold questionable amounts of equipment for questionable sums of money and are no longer enjoying the listening process. They might lose interest because they get another job and it demands more of their attention.
 
Enough is enough when the human desire to explore and learn is routed elsewhere.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

   
This is a great thread...
 
 
Enough is enough when the human desire to explore and learn is routed elsewhere.

Yes. To music, rather than gear.

 
Nothing wrong with either target.

 

[Sonic Defender]

   
This is a great thread...
 
@Sonic Defender you might find this article interesting:
 
 
Enough is enough when the human desire to explore and learn is routed elsewhere.

Thanks mate, I will read the article later today I hope, and I'm not surprised a bit that this would be the case. Much like how we perceive the taste of food is also dependent on aroma and texture, so a combined experience. I agree completely with your post and it makes me think of my father and neighbor who both love crafting from wood. My father gets exotic woods from around the world and makes little boxes. I have often wanted to get him to make me headphone cups, but I never have wooden headphone cup headphones around. I did own a D7000, a ZMF Vibro and a TH 900 recently so I do sometimes go that route. I've just never perceived wood as sounding much different than say a well done plastic cup (although I'm sure they do have audible differences) I guess I'm just not as motivated by the wood sound. Funny as I love wood in general and play the drums so you would think in headphones I might be more tilted in that direction than I am?

 

[Redcarmoose]

Things change as do perceptions. Looking is not buying. (Look up the origins of that barbers pole)

"Second Coming" for me has become an entertainment point. Inward groan and rolling up of the sleeves to steel myself for some hyperant about how the 49.99 asian uberphone destroys the Stax 009 in every area.

 Just take a step back and look at the industry and the phones that are still at the top of the heap after decades and use that as the metric for just how much of a game changer all the new stuff really is.
Indulge yourself in some light entertainment and step into the T50 mods and measures thread or the Orthodynamic roundup thread to see just how far these big new "advances" have really taken things in the last 30 years or so.

 I am not suggesting anyone crawl into a hole and ignore the current state of affairs. I am merely suggesting that we begin re establishing our value systems and start putting our thumb over the bright blinding sun in the sky known as "marketing"  so that we can make a more rational assessment of whats there.

 Do that, and you may well find that you already have "Enough".

I didn't look it up, but I'm sure your talking about the blood letting?

When I started the most expensive headphone was the AKG k1000, and some STAX models. Also the rare Sennheiser Orpheus and maybe the Sony R-10. Still they were few and far apart. At some point after 2009 and the HD800 price then the LCDs started to kind of set a price point where headphones became more expensive. Many makes started off with $1000+ headphones and IEMs. If we we're to say that the Sennheiser flagship was the HD650 ( leaving the Orpheus out ) then actually overnight from 2008-2009 headphones seemed to double in price with some models now reaching upwards of 3K. I wonder when it will end, .........when the blood-letting will end?

 

[Hutnicks]

I didn't look it up, but I'm sure your talking about the blood letting?

When I started the most expensive headphone was the AKG k1000, and some STAX models. Also the rare Sennheiser Orpheus and maybe the Sony R-10. Still they were far and few apart. At some point after 2009 and the HD800 price then the LCDs started to kind of set a price point where headphones became more expensive. Many makes started off with $1000+ headphones and IEMs. If we we're to say that the Sennheiser flagship was the HD650 ( leaving the Orpheus out ) then actually overnight from 2008-2009 headphones seemed to double in price with some models now reaching upwards of 3K. I wonder when it will end, .........when the bloodletting will end?

It will only end when the market is saturated and people stop buying. The thing of it is as well as setting an acoustic standard the HD800 inadvertantly set a price standard as well. Every other manufacturer saw them fetching that price and screamed "Me Too" so now we have a glut of 400 dollar headphones selling for 1600 and up which of course keeps setting the bar again, as when someone builds a better phone they need to price it higher than the inflated value 400 buck selling at 1600 competitor. The next thing you know 3 grand is the new black and the inflation spiral takes another step up the ladder.

 

[Redcarmoose]

This is a great thread...

@Sonic Defender
you might find this article interesting:

http://www.leonardo-guitar-research.com/research-report-lgrp

(a study that found how tonewoods in guitars sound perhaps isn't as important as how they look)

I got into modding, and then turning my own cups, as I started to feel that I was perhaps being charged not for quality or materials, but reputation and pricing was being inflated based on demand in my niche areas of interest. The key here is, enough is never really enough as long as you are interested in a chosen area. I found a way to keep exploring despite my distaste for the price-gouging and marketing madness.

I will always be looking for good records. I will always be trying new things on my lathe. I will always want to try new drivers/mods/headbands/pads, etc, etc because I am interested. The day I lose interest (and there are some days I am definitely not in the mood at all), is the day that "enough is enough". Some might lose interest one day because they realize they are being sold questionable amounts of equipment for questionable sums of money and are no longer enjoying the listening process. They might lose interest because they get another job and it demands more of their attention.

Enough is enough when the human desire to explore and learn is routed elsewhere.

 

I skimmed over that read. Still basic guitar construction still amounts to maple guitars sounding loud and bright and mahogany guitars sounding more dark and quiet. I didn't get that the author has simply gone to a respected guitar builder which mixes and matches woods for a desired end result. Most of us guitar players can tell you a guess of maybe three to five famous acoustic guitars just by hearing them. Most of us can tell you when the performer uses a Telecaster or a Fender Strat or a Les Paul. Most of us can also tell you the style of guitar, if it's a semi hollow jazz guitar or concert grand or whatever. They all sound different blind test or not.

What wood they use depends on the characteristics of the wood not if they are tropical or not. I'm not a guitar maker but have had a guitar in my hands since about 1976? It's actually a fairly basic simple concept which then starts to get complicated.



I'm not a classical guitar player but his study is maybe going on to debunk a thousand year old understanding of wood work. The oldest known string instrument is 3000 years old. The classical guitar builders have had ideas about construction and just like everything in classical music, it's built on tradition. In blind tests if non-tropical woods are used but they reflect the same relative density they will vibrate the same way. Still there are other things too, different necks made out of different woods have a different feel. There is also the ideas about personality of woods which are deeply ingrained in players minds.

Headphone cups are still going to sound different made out of different woods. Each wood has it's own character. Some wood is dull, some is bright. Look at how much work Sennheiser has put into their special sonic inert plastic composite? The whole idea is that the material will resist vibrations along with the driver decoupled from the vibratory response of the housing. Each wood in a headphone is going to have a different sound regardless of looks but will be close to the same in regards to their relative density. IMO

 

[fleasbaby]

I skimmed over that read. Still basic guitar construction still amounts to maple guitars sounding loud and bright and mahogany guitars sounding more dark and quiet. I didn't get that the author has simply gone to a respected guitar builder which mixes and matches woods for a desired end result. Most of us guitar players can tell you a guess of maybe three to five famous acoustic guitars just by hearing them. Most of us can tell you when the performer uses a Telecaster or a Fender Strat or a Les Paul. Most of us can also tell you the style of guitar, if it's a semi hollow jazz guitar or concert grand or whatever. They all sound different blind test or not.

What wood they use depends on the characteristics of the wood not if they are tropical or not. I'm not a guitar maker but have had a guitar in my hands since about 1976? It's actually a fairly basic simple concept which then starts to get complicated.

 
 

  Thanks mate, I will read the article later today I hope, and I'm not surprised a bit that this would be the case. Much like how we perceive the taste of food is also dependent on aroma and texture, so a combined experience. I agree completely with your post and it makes me think of my father and neighbor who both love crafting from wood. My father gets exotic woods from around the world and makes little boxes. I have often wanted to get him to make me headphone cups, but I never have wooden headphone cup headphones around. I did own a D7000, a ZMF Vibro and a TH 900 recently so I do sometimes go that route. I've just never perceived wood as sounding much different than say a well done plastic cup (although I'm sure they do have audible differences) I guess I'm just not as motivated by the wood sound. Funny as I love wood in general and play the drums so you would think in headphones I might be more tilted in that direction than I am?

 
 

I skimmed over that read. Still basic guitar construction still amounts to maple guitars sounding loud and bright and mahogany guitars sounding more dark and quiet. I didn't get that the author has simply gone to a respected guitar builder which mixes and matches woods for a desired end result. Most of us guitar players can tell you a guess of maybe three to five famous acoustic guitars just by hearing them. Most of us can tell you when the performer uses a Telecaster or a Fender Strat or a Les Paul. Most of us can also tell you the style of guitar, if it's a semi hollow jazz guitar or concert grand or whatever. They all sound different blind test or not.

What wood they use depends on the characteristics of the wood not if they are tropical or not. I'm not a guitar maker but have had a guitar in my hands since about 1976? It's actually a fairly basic simple concept which then starts to get complicated.

 
I think the point is that Tropical woods are becoming scarce, and consuming them is contributing to environmental issues, so switching to a tonally similar, non-tropical alternative is a positive move...I want to try and carry the same thoughts over to headphone cups...
 
Working with a few folks on the forums, and with a little trial and error, I have gotten a little headway. Still some ground to cover though. And of course...everyone loves a purdy pair of Cocobolo Rosies for their looks as well as their tone, so aesthetics have to be factored in.
 
Maybe I will find myself eventually working with synthetic materials over wood? I know Smeggy started making his baffles from a dense plastic at one point. Sonically, it was superior.
 
Bottom line....I desire to learn, to explore, therefore I keep consuming.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I think the point is that Tropical woods are becoming scarce, and consuming them is contributing to environmental issues, so switching to a tonally similar, non-tropical alternative is a positive move...I want to try and carry the same thoughts over to headphone cups...

Working with a few folks on the forums, and with a little trial and error, I have gotten a little headway. Still some ground to cover though. And of course...everyone loves a purdy pair of Cocobolo Rosies for their looks as well as their tone, so aesthetics have to be factored in.

Maybe I will find myself eventually working with synthetic materials over wood? I know Smeggy started making his baffles from a dense plastic at one point. Sonically, it was superior.

Bottom line....I desire to learn, to explore, therefore I keep consuming.

Here in Indonesia the palm oil demands are going on to remove a big part of the Indonesian forests. I agree and if that's his goal, it makes perfect sense. Like my edit to the prior post states, he is going against very tried and true ideas.

If your a classical player and serious about acceptance, I would think the last thing you would want is to walk up on stage with a strange guitar. Because we do know seeing is a huge part of audio perception. As a guitar makers they are going to need to place those non-tropical guitars in the hands of famous players and get acceptance before it will become the exception to the rule.

They did the same having musicians play a new made violin in contrast to our accepted million dollar baselines and they could not tell. It's not the traditional woods I think but the density of the wood and quality of construction. In the late 1970s Ovation started selling guitars with fiberglass backs. No one wanted them, then in a years time they became popular and the prices skyrocketed. They could not give the first ones away, and may have made the later models better?

 

[fleasbaby]

Here in Indonesia the palm oil demands are going on to remove a big part of the Indonesian forests. I agree and if that's his goal, it makes perfect sense. Like my edit to the prior post states, he is going against very tried and true ideas.

If your a classical player and serious about acceptance, I would think the last thing you would want is to walk up on stage with a strange guitar. Because we do know seeing is a huge part of audio perception. As a guitar makers they are going to need to place those non-tropical guitars in the hands of famous players and get acceptance before it will become the exception to the rule.

They did the same having musicians play a new made violin in contrast to our accepted million dollar baselines and they could not tell. It's not the traditional woods I think but the density of the wood and quality of construction. In the late 1970s Ovation started selling guitars with fiberglass backs. No one wanted them, then in a years time they became popular and the prices skyrocketed. They could not give the first ones away, and may have made the later models better?

 
...it all reminds me a lot of Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance...it's all about quality and substance. This guy has some ideas as well:
 
http://www.lmii.com/alternative-tonewoods

 

[Redcarmoose]

I read most of that. Interestingly it's also how they understand the wood to last. This something to do with the grain, being both low weight so it will vibrate and also withstand the force of the strings pulling. There are just all these envormental factors too that the guitar has to withstand. Imagine it has to go into heat, dryness and humidity then last and not have the wood move even after 50 years. It's a wonder any of them last.

So bringing in a new wood I guess gets heavily viewed as there is no guitar history? Same as a guitar maker who has to sell his first one for cheap, then they start to gain higher retails. My father was a wooden boat builder, a lost art, but again his tools were at times 100 years old. Also he had the same influx as there was always trends to get a wood boat made with alternative materials. One boat he made had a hull made of steel. So there is this tradition, but at the same time modern practicality changing products.