[castleofargh]

Don't get me wrong. Listening to music is a daily pleasure for me. Hearing it well reproduced is a joy.
As Hutnicks says. Don't try and sell me what you cannot deliver!
My CIEMs are my favourite possession.
Once you get to a certain level though. IMO. That's it. It doesn't get any better. Maybe different.
Another thing that I have come to believe is that listening to music is essentially a passive activity.
There is a tendency on here to try and turn it into an active hobby.
Carefully matching components in the quest for synergy. Tweaking with rarified cables and the like. Using components that the general public do not even know exist.
All this is fine. If you can afford to indulge.
I suggest that even then it is nice to keep in touch with reality!
My concern is for people like me who have a little disposable income getting mislead into spending needlessly.
Let alone those who get into debt.

yup, more like using components that modern science does not even know exist ^_^.
when you read the marketing for some audiophile products, it's like they all discovered their own unique penicillin for sound. they can't really explain what's better, they certainly don't demonstrate it objectively, but hey! trust me, I'm some dude who wants to make money. and look at all the subjective ideas I'm throwing around because I can't be sued on subjectivity.
when I see anything about expensive cables, and the seller doesn't offer any data(not science looking lingo like in the soap ads, but actual objective data), from my point of view, it's being gullible to go pay a high price for it. that's paying with no idea why it cost more.
when I see anything about some fancy chipset or fancy tech saying it does this and that, and I don't see objective evidence of it at the output of the device, same thing. yeah my sony DAP has a highres logo, and the cable soldered to the battery is thicker so sound is better and impedance lower(in the cable of the battery, because output impedance on sony DAPs....), and the proprietary DAC chip lowers the noise floor...  they say all that stuff. oh yeah? that's great, lower compared to what? the noise floor at the output is still very average crap. as far as I know, what matters is the signal going into my headphone, not that something inside is good and then ruined by something else bad which the marketing slightly forgot to talk about. so anytime something is expensive and doesn't have output measurements justifying the advertised performance, I don't understand why someone pays for it.
 
all that crap is allowed to exist because of all the people who mistake "we need to listen to get the final idea", for "all we need is listen". because sound is more like taste, it's a subjective and personal thing. sure, I'm on board with that. but do we keep tasting every object we see and can reach like when we were 1 year old? no, we use more than taste to decide what will deserve to go in our mouth. audio is the same thing. there are thousands of products that not only shouldn't reach your ears, but should never be paid the asking price.
 
deciding that we're looking for our favorite sound instead of the objective best, isn't a reason to become the human wallet of every guy with something to sell and a few lies to tell.

 

[Hutnicks]

Don't get me wrong. Listening to music is a daily pleasure for me. Hearing it well reproduced is a joy.
As Hutnicks says. Don't try and sell me what you cannot deliver!
My CIEMs are my favourite possession.
Once you get to a certain level though. IMO. That's it. It doesn't get any better. Maybe different.
Another thing that I have come to believe is that listening to music is essentially a passive activity.
There is a tendency on here to try and turn it into an active hobby.
Carefully matching components in the quest for synergy. Tweaking with rarified cables and the like. Using components that the general public do not even know exist.
All this is fine. If you can afford to indulge.
I suggest that even then it is nice to keep in touch with reality!
My concern is for people like me who have a little disposable income getting mislead into spending needlessly.
Let alone those who get into debt.

I think listening can be a very active experience unto itself. There is actual WORK involved in picking out instruments in a recording and understanding why the artist/composer etcetera made the choices they did during the recording. Active listening opens up a whole new world in the enjoyment of music.
 
Needless spending when one can ill afford it is surely a massive detriment to the overall industry. Unfortunately they have managed to cover it up with an attitude of you need to buy more if you are not satisfied with what you just bought (anyone else notice the sudden glut of AK players up for sale in the classifieds lately).  I am all for caveat emptor and personal responsibility, but I have real issues when the buyer is not able to "beware" as the hype, specious reviews, and mass hysteria does not even give them the opportunity to be "aware" . The old adage BS Baffles Brains must have come from the audio trade.

 

[Redcarmoose]

There are so many profiles of buyers here. Same as life, you have all types. I remember seeing friends gamble away large sums of money in an hour or two. They all thought they would win.


The best part of this thread is almost a counseling course. We seem we have not found any true professionals to chime in. If anything the human mind is convoluted and complex and there is just not one answer for everyone.

I have posted much in this thread and I have spent a lot of money. Still I have few regrets and maybe would have more if I felt the hobby had somehow stole from my well being of happiness? The old adage is live and learn. Still for a thread like this to truly help folks it should have a methodology for curbing needless spending. Still that is what many have posted about.

To sum stuff up.

1) We talked about music maybe being more important than gear.
2) It was noted that we are amongst a big hype train with multiple people buying products in groups.
3) It was noted that buyers have different ways of buying.
4) We guessed that the body created different "feel good chemicals" which coincided with the purchase and may have a connection with the amount of money spent, or perceived improvement at hand.
5) It was noted that purchasing was done at times only for the sake of acquiring new stuff.
6) Many informed that all was well, and we are experiencing new sound signatures and integration into a healthy and good hobby.
7) The years of industry sales tactics were lightly touched on.
8) Knowing yourself and the signs of a new purchase to take place is helpful in recognizing if a person really is in a detrimental purchasing loop.
9) The end all cure for folks who come to the conclusion that they do have an "upgrade" problem could maybe be helped with a style of buying anonymous 12 step program.
10) With anything like this recognizing that you have a problem and that things are out of control is the 1st step to a cure.
11) At times intervention is the only solution.

 

[serman005]

  yup, more like using components that modern science does not even know exist ^_^.
when you read the marketing for some audiophile products, it's like they all discovered their own unique penicillin for sound. they can't really explain what's better, they certainly don't demonstrate it objectively, but hey! trust me, I'm some dude who wants to make money. and look at all the subjective ideas I'm throwing around because I can't be sued on subjectivity.
when I see anything about expensive cables, and the seller doesn't offer any data(not science looking lingo like in the soap ads, but actual objective data), from my point of view, it's being gullible to go pay a high price for it. that's paying with no idea why it cost more.
when I see anything about some fancy chipset or fancy tech saying it does this and that, and I don't see objective evidence of it at the output of the device, same thing. yeah my sony DAP has a highres logo, and the cable soldered to the battery is thicker so sound is better and impedance lower(in the cable of the battery, because output impedance on sony DAPs....), and the proprietary DAC chip lowers the noise floor...  they say all that stuff. oh yeah? that's great, lower compared to what? the noise floor at the output is still very average crap. as far as I know, what matters is the signal going into my headphone, not that something inside is good and then ruined by something else bad which the marketing slightly forgot to talk about. so anytime something is expensive and doesn't have output measurements justifying the advertised performance, I don't understand why someone pays for it.
 
all that crap is allowed to exist because of all the people who mistake "we need to listen to get the final idea", for "all we need is listen". because sound is more like taste, it's a subjective and personal thing. sure, I'm on board with that. but do we keep tasting every object we see and can reach like when we were 1 year old? no, we use more than taste to decide what will deserve to go in our mouth. audio is the same thing. there are thousands of products that not only shouldn't reach your ears, but should never be paid the asking price.
 
deciding that we're looking for our favorite sound instead of the objective best, isn't a reason to become the human wallet of every guy with something to sell and a few lies to tell.

I am absolutely shocked to contemplate the amount of money I have spent on cables. And yet, during all of those purchases over the years, I never once had a sales person show me any objective data illustrating the scientific basis for his or here superior cable. I use cables merely because this was a major thing for me, but I do agree it applies to other components as well. The fact is, I was chasing that nth degree of improvement for systems that were already off the charts good. So, there is a market for people who want to chase that last hundredth of a percent and it is an expensive market to be in. I don't do that any more, because I finally figured out I couldn't tell the difference between a two thousand dollar cable and a two hundred dollar one. I guess you could say that I am in nth degree recovery now. It is a much better place to be.

 

[musikevan]

I'll betcha a vintage pair of earbuds that PET scans will reveal the addiction centers of the brain light-up when audiophiles are presented with their desired gadgets. Bottlehead Crack indeed!  Just as the sound of a mother's voice soothes her baby, so does distortion free sound soothe the adult "baby".

 

[mevans]

Apropos of some recent posts, earlier in this thread I offered my view that ancillary components to headphones (cables, amps, converters), so long as of a decent quality, did not offer an audible difference among each other.  I realize that this view runs counter to the view of most forum members and base my view in part upon the apparent unwillingness of professional reviewers (like Stereophile) to conduct double-blind testing of such components.  [At least this has been the case in years past and if I am now wrong about this, I apologize.] 
 
Accordingly, it seems to me that a hobbyist's money is best spent by buying the best headphones he can afford, and then adequate accompanying gear.  So, for example, in my case, I'm using HD700s along with a Sony dvd player and Presonus amp.  I only bought the amp because it offered four jacks for listening with friends.  Actually, the headphone jack on my Adcom pre-amp (GFP-710) works as well but just needs to be adjusted to achieve similar volume.

 

[Hutnicks]

 
Apropos of some recent posts, earlier in this thread I offered my view that ancillary components to headphones (cables, amps, converters), so long as of a decent quality, did not offer an audible difference among each other.  I realize that this view runs counter to the view of most forum members and base my view in part upon the apparent unwillingness of professional reviewers (like Stereophile) to conduct double-blind testing of such components.  [At least this has been the case in years past and if I am now wrong about this, I apologize.] 
 
Accordingly, it seems to me that a hobbyist's money is best spent by buying the best headphones he can afford, and then adequate accompanying gear.  So, for example, in my case, I'm using HD700s along with a Sony dvd player and Presonus amp.  I only bought the amp because it offered four jacks for listening with friends.  Actually, the headphone jack on my Adcom pre-amp (GFP-710) works as well but just needs to be adjusted to achieve similar volume.

Awesome.
 
 
I might suggest a quick trip through the vintage receiver thread (http://www.head-fi.org/t/537704/calling-all-vintage-integrated-receiver-owners/15975#post_12514343) or perhaps even the completely un navigable orthodynamic roundup thread
 
As for stereophile. They recomended the JVC HA D 990 way back when and got ridiculed for it. Perhaps they learned a lesson on headphone recco's from that
 
I had a BK preamp that was touted as the best headphone driver in the history of mankind, I can easily recomend 3 or 4 vintage recievers that re capped and de oxited would do as well or better. All of which are the equal of any "headphone specific" offering  out there now.
 
Makes one wonder at times.

 

[castleofargh]

 
Apropos of some recent posts, earlier in this thread I offered my view that ancillary components to headphones (cables, amps, converters), so long as of a decent quality, did not offer an audible difference among each other.  I realize that this view runs counter to the view of most forum members and base my view in part upon the apparent unwillingness of professional reviewers (like Stereophile) to conduct double-blind testing of such components.  [At least this has been the case in years past and if I am now wrong about this, I apologize.] 
 
Accordingly, it seems to me that a hobbyist's money is best spent by buying the best headphones he can afford, and then adequate accompanying gear.  So, for example, in my case, I'm using HD700s along with a Sony dvd player and Presonus amp.  I only bought the amp because it offered four jacks for listening with friends.  Actually, the headphone jack on my Adcom pre-amp (GFP-710) works as well but just needs to be adjusted to achieve similar volume.

+1 for headphones that should be the center of attention. we should build our system around the headphones because they're the limiting factor they can have very wild sensitivity and impedances, leading to very different needs from the amp. and also, it's the element that has the potential to alter sound the most because of how far off it will be from fidelity.
 
about blind tests, sometimes you get those situations where everybody knows it's wrong, but the wrongness keeps on living through sheer inertia and convenience.
for TOS reasons... I'll let someone else say what I think:  http://seanolive.blogspot.fr/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html

 

[Redcarmoose]

Sennheiser HD600


AKG k-701


Denon AHD-7000


Sony R-10




Many of us came from electrical engineering, sound design or professional music reproduction, still everyone has their own sound history. It also turns out that possession of early headphones may have had a distinct influence on how we hear headphones today and how we personally judge things as entertaining or correct.


As we travel to the different sound signatures, each has it's own abilities when reproducing music playback. It turns out some headphones are just better at classical and some become better with rock.



The psychological issue here is that at any one time we may view one style as correct. After a while our brain starts to realize we are not getting the whole picture but a filter of a picture. At that point two things can happen, we upgrade to something which is truly more clear and transparent or sidestep to another color.


In addition to the influence of different headphones and sound signature reproduction, amp, cables and source products have their say in the end results. With the combination of above variations possible, it's no wonder there is a search.

Also as stated above, we are told that if things are not sounding correct we need to spend.

 

[krismusic]

I don't agree with your interpretation of the HD600. More like pic 2 IMHO.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I don't agree with your interpretation of the HD600. More like pic 2 IMHO.

They are just quick samples of personality traits. Examples really. Funny, I knew someone would mention that photo.

 

[krismusic]

I am absolutely shocked to contemplate the amount of money I have spent on cables. And yet, during all of those purchases over the years, I never once had a sales person show me any objective data illustrating the scientific basis for his or here superior cable. I use cables merely because this was a major thing for me, but I do agree it applies to other components as well. The fact is, I was chasing that nth degree of improvement for systems that were already off the charts good. So, there is a market for people who want to chase that last hundredth of a percent and it is an expensive market to be in. I don't do that any more, because I finally figured out I couldn't tell the difference between a two thousand dollar cable and a two hundred dollar one. I guess you could say that I am in nth degree recovery now. It is a much better place to be.

That must have been a chastening experience.
It takes a certain strength of character to recognise when you have been duped and to post about it on here. Respect. Welcome back to the light side!

 

[mevans]

 
+1 for headphones that should be the center of attention. we should build our system around the headphones because they're the limiting factor they can have very wild sensitivity and impedances, leading to very different needs from the amp. and also, it's the element that has the potential to alter sound the most because of how far off it will be from fidelity.
 
about blind tests, sometimes you get those situations where everybody knows it's wrong, but the wrongness keeps on living through sheer inertia and convenience.
for TOS reasons... I'll let someone else say what I think:  http://seanolive.blogspot.fr/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html

Castle--
 
Thanks a million for the Sean Olive article.  I was totally unaware of it, which appears to support my thesis that was largely based upon speculation.  The most remarkable aspect of the test, in my view, is that it involved loudspeakers.  If there were one component in the audio chain where results of a blind test would mimic results of a sighted test, I would have suspected that component to be loudspeakers.  Now that we know the results of this test, it seems obvious to me that a similar result would obtain with regard to amps, tubes, DACs and cables. 
 
I certainly respect the decisions of hobbyists to spend their money as they see fit, but I can't help but think that many would reach other conclusions if made aware of the Olive article.  If memory serves, this thread originally appeared on the main board.  At some point the moderator moved it to the Members Forum.  While I certainly respect that judgment, I wonder whether this thread, and in particular the Olive article, doesn't deserve to be exposed to as many hobbyists as possible.   
 
Mark 

 

[Rearwing]

When is enough, enough?
 
Now, I have found my ideal kit, I could have got here four years ago, but I have enjoyed the journey.
 
I have lost interest in head-fi as my go to website and I am enjoying my musical collection instead.
 
Thank you for all the good advice, interesting reviews and related threads.
 
I wish you all the very best.
 
Rearwing

 

[fleasbaby]

  When is enough, enough?
 
Now, I have found my ideal kit, I could have got here four years ago, but I have enjoyed the journey.
 
I have lost interest in head-fi as my go to website and I am enjoying my musical collection instead.
 
Thank you for all the good advice, interesting reviews and related threads.
 
I wish you all the very best.
 
Rearwing

AK100 and Hugo? Which cans?