What's your view on custom headphone cables?
Aug 28, 2010 at 10:33 PM Post #601 of 881


Quote:
 They will have done so because they are conditioned to do so by audiophile myths that cables sound different and so they need to find a difference. That will be down to the desire to follow the heard, be part of the gang and being made to think you are special when you can hear differences and those who cannot should be pitied and have faulty hearing. 
 


Because you knew what they were thinking right? You knew how they were conditioned and the mindset they were in? Now it sounds like you're just talking out of your backside to prove your point. 
 
Aug 28, 2010 at 10:44 PM Post #602 of 881
Actually its designed to control for as many variables as possible.
 
Which they're not controlling.  What they're doing is introducing their brand of audio confusion into the equation as variables of bias are added into the equation to mask over reality.  What you anti-cable folks haven't come to grips with, what this thread has done, is totally picked your "Sound Science" to little bitty pieces of bias.  But if it makes you happy ignoring this point, I support you wholeheartedly.
 
One of those variables is your preconceived opinion of the cable.
 
What I find funny, is quite the opposite.  I find the tests are designed to protect your preconceived opinions of there being no difference.  You guys can't hear a difference and you got your tests to make you feel good about yourselves.  I'm happy for you and I hope your tests never let you down.
 
After hundreds and hundreds of posts, face it, ya guys got nothing but skulduggery.
 
It really is time to bow out of this thread.  Why?  It's clear what the anti-cable set has hung their hat on and there's no point continuing as the story's not going change.  You guys have your flawed tests and your biased proof.  On our side, we have the joy and happiness of our listening pleasure.
 
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Aug 28, 2010 at 11:12 PM Post #603 of 881
 
A blinded experiment is one where some of the persons involved are prevented from knowing certain information that might lead to conscious or unconscious bias on their part, invalidating the results.
 
For example, when asking consumers to compare the tastes of different brands of a product, the identities of the brands should be concealed — otherwise consumers will generally tend to prefer the brand they are familiar with. Similarly, when evaluating the effectiveness of a medical drug, both the patients and the doctors who administer the drug may be kept in the dark about the dosage being applied in each case — to forestall any chance of a placebo effect, observer bias, or conscious deception.
 
Blind experiments are an important tool of the scientific method, in many fields of research — from medicine, forensics, psychology and the social sciences, to basic sciences such as physics and biology and to market research. In some disciplines, such as drug testing, blind experiments are considered essential.
 
In case no one noticed, the above is a quote edited down from the usual source. I did not add quotation marks to hopefully avoid any preconceived notions about what was written.
 
I can understand beeman's objections to some of the anti-cabler's proposed blind tests. Such as the one where the tester tells the subject that the cables are being changed, but really they are not. This would be a single-blind test, where the tester might still exert his or her bias over the subject.
 
A proper double-blind test would have the testers equally in the dark about the cables being swapped. Maybe the new cable is identical to the previous one, or maybe it is a completely different design. But neither party will know until the experiment is over and the wrapping around the cables is removed. In fact, the testers can even be selected from a group of pro-cablers and it should not make a difference. That seems like a fair test to me.
 
Aug 29, 2010 at 2:43 AM Post #604 of 881
Beeman, if you need to see the cable to "hear" a difference, then that's the same as admitting that there's no difference between cables. I wonder if you might have tried some unsighted tests that didn't give you the results you expected. If you can't separate hearing from seeing, calling it "skullduggery" is intellectually dishonest. It means, very simply, that you cannot tell one cable from another. Just like the skeptics.
 
Aug 29, 2010 at 5:46 AM Post #605 of 881


Quote:
Because you knew what they were thinking right? You knew how they were conditioned and the mindset they were in? Now it sounds like you're just talking out of your ass to prove your point. 


No I am just trying to explain why someone would hear a difference when there is no difference. Fair enough disagree with my reasoning behind it, but since the difference was not in the cable, it was in the mind.
 
Aug 29, 2010 at 5:53 AM Post #606 of 881

 
Quote:
So it's trickery and skullduggery not to tell people what they're listening to?

In other words, that's a flat, unqualified admission that the "differences" are entirely psychological. If you have to see hte cable to know what you're hearing, then no difference exists other than your perception of what you think you're hearing.

 
No.  The trickery of not being consistent, creates it's own set of confusion which again is setting the test up to fail so as to meet the expectations of a bias test giver.  Nobody said you have to see the cables being used.  If you tell me you're using a coat hanger and then a quality set of cables, and you tell me a switch has taken place, then a switch of the two cables, needs to have taken place.  If you say you've switched and you haven't, then you're intentionally trying to screw the person who's listening, up.
 
If you're going give a test, then it has to be a fair and balanced test.  No trick question.  Period.  If you need trick questions, then the reason is simple, you want to assure fail.  You may live in the world where you think tricking people is ethical, I don't.


My reading of the above is that Beeman wants additional help to pass a blind test. So we have a coathanger and a cable. Without seeing either one (A) is used and then the other (B). Then the first cable is used, which can either be A of B. Then by Beeman's rules the switches are alternative as you have to change each time. So, if he gets the first selection correct he is on to a 100% result. If he gets the first selection wrong he is on to a 0% result. So there is no point to the test as it all hinges on the first listen alone.
 
Aug 29, 2010 at 9:37 AM Post #608 of 881
What is unfair about showing someone one two cables, then sighted let them listen to both, then unsighted they listen to them again, where they know sometimes the cables have been switched and sometimes they have not, and they have to identify which is which?
 
When I first read about such tests, it seemed to me that they were biased towards the subject and would be easily passed. When then read of completed tests and did one myself, I realised that whilst the test is fair and simple, I was not going to pass. So, I changed my position as dictated by the evidence. The likes of Beeman knows that and The Monkey you are right, the fear of not being able to pass the test and having to back down and change your position is just too much for some.
 
Aug 29, 2010 at 10:01 AM Post #609 of 881
Beeman, if you need to see the cable to "hear" a difference, then that's the same as admitting that there's no difference between cables.
 
It's clear you're not reading what I've written as I've repeatedly written to you that seeing the cables isn't a requirement and yet you continue repeating your above.  I've also written that I'm bowing out of the thread as the bias nature of the anti-cable crowd is patently obvious and in the end, what's it all about?  It's simply about listening pleasure (happiness) and nothing more as the anti-cable crowd wants people to listen to music their way and only their way.  Can you say control issues.
 
On my part, enough has been written.
 
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Sep 1, 2010 at 5:02 PM Post #612 of 881
Please DO the blind test at CanJam when it's next in NYC.  I'd love to participate.  It doesn't need to be complicated, and it doesn't need to have coathangers, all you need to do is have 4-5 different cables in increasing order of cost, from 99cents to a couple hundred dollars.  Then let people play with them all according to their own way of testing and tell you which one they like best.  Then publish the names and prices of the cables on the Head-FI website, as well as the percentages of people who chose each.  Everyone who tested will know for themselves what they chose, and everyone else will get to see the results.
 
Hell, I'd be fine with just comparing the standard UE or JH iem cable with any of the $350 TWAG cables to see what the fuss is about.  
 
Sep 1, 2010 at 8:02 PM Post #613 of 881
I plan to develop a test for the next CanJam. However, I am not going to reveal prices or other data. That introduces bias that needs to be controlled for. I also want to slip a coathanger and a few surprises into the mix. I think it would be valuable to see if people give it high marks or not.

I'll set up a switchbox on my rig so people can select between six different cables. They'll be allowed to drop their own cable into the setup, too, for comparison. I'll have several other cables on hand, too, so people can take them to their own rigs for listening and evaluation.

The goal will not be differentiating between cables. Each listener is going to fill out a form where they review each cable's sound. They can give it a rating from 1-10, describe the sound, and make comments. This might not be scientifically rigorous, but the results will be interesting. If there are two silver cables that get wildly different reviews from the same listener, that's significant. Likewise, if someone loves the paperclips while hating a pure copper cable, that's significant. I don't know how the tests will turn out, but I think that people will have a tough time picking out the "bad" cables. If the coathanger gets glowing reviews compared to a $3,000 cable, then maybe the $3,000 cable isn't worth buying when you can make something equally good from something you can get for free at the drycleaners.

I'll start putting test cables together later this year once I settle in Arizona. There are a few important projects to nail down before the bench and workshop can be assembled. It is going to happen, though. As far as I know, there hasn't been a blind review-based evaluation of cables yet. So it has to be done. If results come back showing no difference between cables, I don't expect believers to accept them. However, it will be a powerful argument for anyone on the fence.

And if people are able to find a difference consistently, I'll put them on the payroll as evaluators and start my own cable company. Why not? I'd have a way to beat the snot out of the other manufacturers and eat their lunch. I'd build up a company, sell it, and spend the rest of my life in leisure.
 
Sep 1, 2010 at 8:37 PM Post #614 of 881
I like that plan a lot, Uncle Erik.
 
Will your switchbox allow each cable to be set at separate volumes for matching? I'm not sure how that could be done without degrading (however slightly) the audio signal, unless you have 6 identical DACs & amps hooked up to the switchbox.
 
A test variation I would be interested in is having one of the blind selections use no cable at all. That is, have the two end points soldered together directly (as much as is physically possible). Surely that would in theory have the purest signal of all.
 
Sep 1, 2010 at 10:19 PM Post #615 of 881
Will your switchbox allow each cable to be set at separate volumes for matching?
 
FWIW, every time you add something to the circuit, you degrade the sound quality signature accordingly just like how pots (or other internal parts) affect the sound quality of an headphone amp.  And once you start volume matching, you're both acknowledging and removing differences at the same time.  Just throwing my two cents worth into the hat.
 

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