[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Will your switchbox allow each cable to be set at separate volumes for matching?
 
FWIW, every time you add something to the circuit, you degrade the sound quality signature accordingly just like how pots (or other internal parts) affect the sound quality of an headphone amp.  And once you start volume matching, you're both acknowledging and removing differences at the same time.  Just throwing my two cents worth into the hat.

I plan to test RCA interconnects.  I'll jack the source into a box that distributes the signal among the cables.  They'll run to another box with a selector switch where people can choose which one they want to listen to, and it'll go to the amp.  I'll probably leave the boxes open so everyone can see what's inside.  Volume levels will be whatever people choose and people will be welcome to disconnect and switch around cables.  They'll also be able to remove one and put a cable of their choice into the system so they can switch back and forth if they want.  No time limits and as few rules as possible.  People will be free to listen and evaluate as they want.

 

[QRomo]

Quote:

And once you start volume matching, you're both acknowledging and removing differences at the same time.

While strictly true, volume differences are not interesting unless there are other differences that go with them (distortion, frequency response, etc.). I doubt anyone would be willing to pay extra for a cable whose only effect can be nullified by a simple turn of the volume knob. Level matching actually makes it easier to spot meaningful differences as it allows you to compare both components from a common baseline, kind of like how you line up two objects with a common reference point when trying to determine which is longer. If one cable has, say, rolled off highs compared to another, matching levels won't remove that difference and should actually make it easier to detect as listening to the same material with both cables would sound identical except for muted highs on the offending cable.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

While strictly true, volume differences are not interesting unless there are other differences that go with them (distortion, frequency response, etc.). I doubt anyone would be willing to pay extra for a cable whose only effect can be nullified by a simple turn of the volume knob. Level matching actually makes it easier to spot meaningful differences as it allows you to compare both components from a common baseline, kind of like how you line up two objects with a common reference point when trying to determine which is longer. If one cable has, say, rolled off highs compared to another, matching levels won't remove that difference and should actually make it easier to detect as listening to the same material with both cables would sound identical except for muted highs on the offending cable.

I agree with QRomo and this point has been made before, but it still gets ignored. A cable that affects volume is not really having any effect at all, but it can create the illusion of an effect and quite a clear one at that. I have experienced it myself with my amp and three ICs and with a headphone extension cable. If you want to keep people in the dark that such an effect is easily sorted by a simple volume adjustment on an amp and claim it is an improvement by the cable, then that is part of the kidology of the pro-cable side.

 

[beeman458]

Uncle Erik wrote:
 
I plan to test RCA interconnects.  I'll jack the source into a box that distributes the signal among the cables.  They'll run to another box with a selector switch where people can choose which one they want to listen to, and it'll go to the amp.  I'll probably leave the boxes open so everyone can see what's inside.
 
I appreciate your efforts and I'm not trying to get into an argument in that I'm just pointing out, by adding anything such as a switch box with selector switch into the signal path, will add it's own masking color to the listening stream.  The point, one doesn't listen to their headphone via a switch box/jack box or both in real life.

 

[beeman458]

QRomo wrote:
 
While strictly true, volume differences are not interesting unless there are other differences that go with them (distortion, frequency response, etc.). I doubt anyone would be willing to pay extra for a cable whose only effect can be nullified by a simple turn of the volume knob.
 
Again, removing the volume difference, removes differences and the whole point of the exercise is to answer the question; do cables make a difference and can you hear these differences?  Volume differences, are a difference.  The whole point of any exercise is to be as neutral as possible and line leveling isn't being neutral because you're biasing out differences, adding a human biasing factor.  If cables don't make a difference, then there's no need to bias out volume differences because there's no difference.
 
Level matching actually makes it easier to spot meaningful differences as it allows you to compare both components from a common baseline, kind of like how you line up two objects with a common reference point when trying to determine which is longer.
 
The point of the exercise is to see if there's a difference and volume, is a difference.  Secondly, length is not audio and measuring the length of an object, to see which is longer, doesn't include the act of lopping off the length differences because now you've removed any length differences so of course they're going be the same length.  Line leveling out volume differences is not allowed nor is the addition of switch boxes as there's no way to prove or show what the switch box is adding or subtracting from the end product going to the headphones.  My understanding of amps and amp circuit design, less is more, not the other way around.  The addition of a switch box will affect the sensitivity of the signal to the negative.
 
A couple points of order I might add.  If the switch box is open, what stray EMI/RFI is going be allowed to enter the stream?  Another point, the more cables being tested, the more audio confusion is added to the equation as one tries to memorize the differences between several different cables, at the same time.
 
Folks at this point, need to accept the point that this is a conundrum which based upon current state of the industry, is unprovable and the decision to buy or not buy is something one is going have to independently make on their own.  Hear a difference, wonderful.  Don't hear a difference, equally wonderful.  If one is worried that it's all a scam, don't buy any cables except for inexpensive but well made zip cord models.  Maybe you can manufacture your own cables uber cheaply out of wire coat hangers as it's been reported what a wonderful job wire coat hangers do.  If one is truly curious and is willing to hit the hip, buy only cables with a thirty day return policy and if the cables don't work for you, return the cables for a refund and get on with your life, sans cables.  Oh, and be sure to stop by a hi-fi forum and write about what fools those pro-cable guys are.  Or you can simply write it off as a learning experience and be done with it, knowing how proud you are of yourself because you haven't been fooled by all the placebos and auto-suggestions.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

So long as the switchbox is the same throughout the test (prone to EMI or RFI or not) you have not added in a variable, so switching cables will mean the cable is still the only variable, so any difference will still be noticeable, or not.
 
Fine, cables can affect volume, so there is a difference. Now go and recommend them on the forum or sell them based on that and watch the complaints roll in. This is like recommending or selling a volume control because it can improve the sound of cables.

 

[The Monkey]

Exactly. The switch box in the path issue is a red herring nothing more. Even if it does make a difference, it will be equally applied across all cables, which is fine as this would be a relative test as opposed to a determination of absolute sound quality.

 

[kwkarth]

The act of "switching" gear being between the cable and its source and destination, may well obfuscate any differences between cables if they existed in the first place.  The act of observation, alters what is being observed.
 
The better the equipment, the more noticeable the differences, if any, are.

 

[Uncle Erik]

The switchbox is a non-issue.  Most of you are running cables into a switchbox inside your gear.  If using a switch obfuscates the sound, then anyone claiming to hear a difference in using a cable must be imagining the difference.

 

[Yoga Flame]

I think it's great that we're having this discussion before the experiment takes place. Much better than waiting till later and then having one group claim the results are invalid.
 
I was initially concerned about the switchbox degrading the sound. But thinking about it more, I'm inclined to see it as the equivalent of a passive pre-amp. As long as any degradation is applied equally to all cables, the test will be fair. Of course the amount of degradation has to be below the range of perceivable differences in the cables.
 
The pro-cable position is that there are significant differences between the cables. I would like to think those differences are large enough to still be heard after adding something simple like a switchbox or a balanced to SE adapter. Yes, I do see a switchbox as having a similar effect on the signal as a cable adapter. My original concern was that there would be volume pots in the switchbox. Those would have a more detrimental effect. But even then, that's pretty much just what a passive pre-amp is. I don't think anyone has claimed that a pre-amp makes cables worthless.

 

[The Monkey]

The switchbox is a non-issue.  Most of you are running cables into a switchbox inside your gear.  If using a switch obfuscates the sound, then anyone claiming to hear a difference in using a cable must be imagining the difference.

^this cannot reasonably be disputed.

 

[beeman458]

Uncle Erik wrote:
 
The switchbox is a non-issue.
 
No, the switch box is an issue for the reasons stated.  As I've written, the differences, my experience, are in the one percent of the recording or less range and the addition of an added switch box plus connectors adds it's own brand of signal desensitization.  The more connections and wires added, the greater the desensitization of the signal.  I would expect one to care about these issues as opposed to blowing them off.
 
Yoga Flame wrote:
 
The pro-cable position is that there are significant differences between the cables.
 
That's not a claim that I've made.  If there's any significance, it's at the extremes of the music in the one percent or less range.  Enough of a difference to make me hit the hip, but not enough that I don't see the difference being easily masked by the addition of switch boxes and added connectors.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

The act of "switching" gear being between the cable and its source and destination, may well obfuscate any differences between cables if they existed in the first place.  The act of observation, alters what is being observed.
 
The better the equipment, the more noticeable the differences, if any, are.

I can agree with observations affecting what you observe, if it is a small tribe previous unknown from the Amazon basin. But not with cables because observation has no effect on a cable. There may be an effect on listeners by doing a test.
 
I think that the 'better the equipment' argument is a myth to help justify big expenditure on audiophile kit. There are blind tests out there were some bery high end kit has been embarrassed by some entry level stuff.

 

[QRomo]

Quote:

Again, removing the volume difference, removes differences and the whole point of the exercise is to answer the question; do cables make a difference and can you hear these differences?  Volume differences, are a difference.  The whole point of any exercise is to be as neutral as possible and line leveling isn't being neutral because you're biasing out differences, adding a human biasing factor.  If cables don't make a difference, then there's no need to bias out volume differences because there's no difference.

 
Correction: removing any level mismatch removes one difference, the level mismatch. All other differences should be preserved. Perhaps we disagree on this point, but I don't think a volume difference is at all interesting on its own because it's equivalent to turning the volume knob on your amp. I'm more interested in differences that can change the listening experience. As for the "human biasing factor", I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Proper level matching is done with an SPL meter, not by ear.
 
Quote:

The point of the exercise is to see if there's a difference and volume, is a difference.  Secondly, length is not audio and measuring the length of an object, to see which is longer, doesn't include the act of lopping off the length differences because now you've removed any length differences so of course they're going be the same length.  Line leveling out volume differences is not allowed ...

 
Perhaps my analogy was not the best, but your counter analogy is of the mark as well. Changing the volume of a signal is not in any way similar to chopping off the length difference between two objects as a volume change doesn't alter the fundamental nature of the signal. The "shape", if you will, remains unchanged and should therefore retain any other differences for comparison.
 
There's also psychoacoustics to take into account. When presented two signals that are identical except for a small volume difference, people tend to perceive the louder signal as sounding qualitatively better when they're unaware of the change in volume. Indeed, it's a well known trick used by audio dealers to sneakily bump up the volume slightly on the more expensive component when a customer is doing a listening comparison to help sway their decision.
 
I'm surprised this is a sticking point for you, beeman. I think most people on both sides of the cable debate agree that level matching is necessary when comparing any two pieces of equipment. You're the first I've come across to object to the practice.

 

[beeman458]

QRomo wrote:
 
Correction: removing any level mismatch removes one difference, the level mismatch. All other differences should be preserved. Perhaps we disagree on this point, but I don't think a volume difference is at all interesting on its own because it's equivalent to turning the volume knob on your amp. I'm more interested in differences that can change the listening experience.
 
It's not about what you find interesting or what you don't find interesting as it's about detecting the differences.  Volume is one of the differences.
 
As for the "human biasing factor", I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Proper level matching is done with an SPL meter, not by ear.
 
The human, by finding need to level match, is adding their own personal brand of bias; "human biasing factor."
 
Perhaps my analogy was not the best, but your counter analogy is of the mark as well.
 
No it wasn't.  It may not work for you but it's not off the mark either.  Cut the rope, don't cut the rope, you're listening for a difference, no biasing of the volume allowed and if you're going measure and compare ropes, no cutting of the rope allowed.
 
There's also psychoacoustics to take into account. When presented two signals that are identical except for a small volume difference, people tend to perceive the louder signal as sounding qualitatively better when they're unaware of the change in volume. Indeed, it's a well known trick used by audio dealers to sneakily bump up the volume slightly on the more expensive component when a customer is doing a listening comparison to help sway their decision.
 
That's a straw man argument as there's no bumping of the gain going on.  Set the gain on the amp and let the cables themselves carry the day.  Cables are as neutral of an object as you're going find.  They have no power source so they shouldn't be able to add or subtract from the listening equation, yet they do.
 
I'm surprised this is a sticking point for you, beeman. I think most people on both sides of the cable debate agree that level matching is necessary when comparing any two pieces of equipment. You're the first I've come across to object to the practice.
 
Personally, I'm surprised that nobody has challenged this point as it's as glaring of a gaff as the noon day sun in a desert, in the middle of August, in the northern hemisphere.  First, you're not comparing two pieces of equipment.  Why?  Because you're comparing headphone cables and what is it you're comparing, the ability of one to tell the differences between the two cables.  Volume is one of these differences and if you find need to level match, then you're admitting, before the test starts, that yes, there's a difference.  No level matching allowed.  And no switch boxes as the added boxes will mask over the difference custom cables make.  We're now back to there's "never" going be a valid test, so folks need to just learn to enjoy, or not enjoy and stop getting their shorts in a bunch over what others, such as myself, are want to buy.
 
I'll even go one better.  Let's assume that I'm all wet and cables are just that, totally bogus.  If folks want to buy snake oil and buying snake oil makes them happy, let them.  Anything else is just another case of folks sticking their noses in other people's business where it doesn't belong.  I do draw the line at killing endangered species when products such as Viagra are commonly available.
 
(And if it lasts for more than four hours.....)
 
Oh, yeah, like I want to go walking into my doctors office with that complaint. 
 
"Hey Doc., can you do anything for me?"