More stuff to google:
confirmation bias
crc
confirmation bias
crc
This thread will be locked soon if these arguments keep showing...
The thread is supposed to be the best featured USB cable for a specific price range, not whether silver plated wires, etc, etc make a difference in sound.
So I went on to do research as to why digital cables would make a difference in sound.
But in analogue electronics, it's hard to keep a square wave perfect to the DAC. Jitter, noise, reflection, etc... will affect the integrity of the square wave.
The square wave is still able to transmit the 0s and 1s over, but wont be perfect. .... In a perfect world, that would be a perfect square wave.
As USB cables do not affect the sound, if you are hearing a difference that's because the price/appearance of the cable is leading you to believe the cable sounds better.
The answer to your question, "What's the best cable for the money?" is; an AmazonBasics cable. Actual sound quality doesn't get any better than that, at ANY price! If however you're not interested in actual sound quality but in how much the price/appearance of a cable might help you to believe that the sound is better, then obviously "the best cable for the money" for you personally is the prettiest, most expensive one you can afford, as Safarix already told you!
G
Quote:
No! In a perfect ANALOGUE world that square wave would be perfect. In the analogue world there is only an analogue audio signal, any degradation in that analogue signal is a degradation which is output to the speakers/headphones. However, we're not talking about the analogue world, we're talking about the digital world. In the digital world, that analogue signal (square waves) is not the audio signal, it's just a representation of digital data and nothing directly related to the audio signal at all! These square waves can be distorted/degraded to hell and back, it makes no difference whatsoever. Provided the square waves are not obliterated entirely and can be recognised as being at least vaguely square shaped, the data they represent can be recovered perfectly, just as perfectly as if the square wave were perfect! This is the fact which is so conveniently missing from the marketing and is what makes it pseudo-science. And, what an absolutely astonishing fact to omit, because this fact is the WHOLE REASON WHY digital audio was invented in the first place!!! It's because we don't live in a perfect analogue world that digital audio was invented (to circumvent those imperfections), if we did live in a perfect world with perfect square (or any other shaped) analogue audio signals there would be no point/reason for digital audio to exist!
Yes, jitter, noise, etc., does exist but the story/facts don't end there. We can't just say they "exist" period, let's buy a cable which removes/reduces them, for two reasons: 1. The more expensive cables don't actually reduce jitter or noise any better than cheap ones such as the AmazonBasics but whether they do or don't is irrelevant anyway because, 2. There's the rest of the story/facts: Even DACs 20 and more years ago employed circuitry which filtered out the jitter and noise to below audibility and DACs of the last decade or so have improved even further and filter it out to 100-1000 times below audibility! This is all relatively easy to measure, although a little involved and cable companies gamble on the fact that extremely few consumers will bother. Instead, they rely entirely on visual appeal, price and pseudo-science to affect your perception, so that you (hopefully) perceive an audible improvement where there is no difference anywhere even remotely approaching audibility.
"The signal that moves along a USB cable isn’t digital – it most definitely is NOT ones and zeroes – but an electrical-pulse representation of those ones and zeroes. This analogue signal is therefore prone to disturbance from EMI emanating from the host computer and electrical noise arrive over the air, otherwise known as RFI. Greater vulnerability to noise can degrade a cable’s ability to do its job: transfer data from computer to DAC.
The cable geometry, materials used – the conductor, the dielectric and termination plugs – and shielding all influence the cable’s immunity to electrical noise pollution, the rise times of the electrical pulses being carried and the arrival timing of those pulses."
Quote:
I don't really understand why, when you did your research, you seem to have only researched the 15 or so year old marketing pseudo-science? If you're going to go to the trouble of researching in the first place, why not go that extra step beyond pseudo-science and try to understand the whole/real picture?
I agree entirely! It's relatively easy to see and measure the common and fairly significant degradation in the integrity of the square waves, no argument from me here at all! But where are the rest of the facts?
There is one type of marketing pseudo-science which is just completely made up nonsense, explained using scientific (or scientific sounding) wording/terminology but the type of marketing pseudo-science demonstrated here is more sophisticated and far more effective in my opinion. Jitter, noise, skin effect, etc., are all real scientific phenomena, not pseudo-science at all!! But (and it's a huge "but"!), by stopping there, by going off at a tangent from this point and not continuing with the rest of the actual facts, this real science is perverted into pseudo-science! The lies/falsehoods are not so much in what is actually stated but in what has not been stated, it's a lie of omission. This, in my opinion, is far more effective marketing pseudo-science than just the made up nonsense!
No! In a perfect ANALOGUE world that square wave would be perfect. In the analogue world there is only an analogue audio signal, any degradation in that analogue signal is a degradation which is output to the speakers/headphones. However, we're not talking about the analogue world, we're talking about the digital world. In the digital world, that analogue signal (square waves) is not the audio signal, it's just a representation of digital data and nothing directly related to the audio signal at all! These square waves can be distorted/degraded to hell and back, it makes no difference whatsoever. Provided the square waves are not obliterated entirely and can be recognised as being at least vaguely square shaped, the data they represent can be recovered perfectly, just as perfectly as if the square wave were perfect! This is the fact which is so conveniently missing from the marketing and is what makes it pseudo-science. And, what an absolutely astonishing fact to omit, because this fact is the WHOLE REASON WHY digital audio was invented in the first place!!! It's because we don't live in a perfect analogue world that digital audio was invented (to circumvent those imperfections), if we did live in a perfect world with perfect square (or any other shaped) analogue audio signals there would be no point/reason for digital audio to exist!
Yes, jitter, noise, etc., does exist but the story/facts don't end there. We can't just say they "exist" period, let's buy a cable which removes/reduces them, for two reasons: 1. The more expensive cables don't actually reduce jitter or noise any better than cheap ones such as the AmazonBasics but whether they do or don't is irrelevant anyway because, 2. There's the rest of the story/facts: Even DACs 20 and more years ago employed circuitry which filtered out the jitter and noise to below audibility and DACs of the last decade or so have improved even further and filter it out to 100-1000 times below audibility! This is all relatively easy to measure, although a little involved and cable companies gamble on the fact that extremely few consumers will bother. Instead, they rely entirely on visual appeal, price and pseudo-science to affect your perception, so that you (hopefully) perceive an audible improvement where there is no difference anywhere even remotely approaching audibility. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that once this perception has been experienced, some/many will believe it to be reality. Some will believe this so absolutely, that no amount of reason, logic or proven facts will shake their belief and, as their belief is so absolute, any justification of that belief is valid, regardless of whether or not it's actually true or even in some cases of how utterly ridiculous it is!
Everyone is entitled to their belief. If you are happy with appearance, price and marketing pseudo-science affecting your perception, then that's entirely your choice and I personally have absolutely no problem with that at all. But, why lie about it? When advising others, why regurgitate marketing pseudo-science and lie, at least by omission, to justify what you enjoy? Why not just tell the truth and say; "USB cables do not affect SQ but the experience of buying, owning and/or using expensive pretty cables can, for some people, enhance the enjoyment of their listening experience"? Obviously, we know why they don't generally say this, it's for the same reason as many religious extremists don't just go off and be a hermit somewhere but feel the need to recruit new members. Fortunately though, audiophile extremists don't go round killing those who don't agree with their philosophy, they just try to explain they have better gear and super-human hearing or failing that, flame or ignore them and go off in a huff!
G
It isn't just a few people making claims that USB cables do make a difference.
My ears just can't lie.
Originally Posted by lbbef /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You must understand that the data will still maintain its integrity as its easy to represent data in analogue terms. But when this imperfect signal goes through your digital circuits (which are made up of analogue components), the output will not magically become perfect.
Hard drives etc don't need a perfect signal as eventually the output is stored as + and -. However, this is different in a DAC's case. The output is not just max voltage and min voltage, it can be anywhere between the two. This imperfect output will eventually be fed into your amplifier and headphones.
Originally Posted by lbbef /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Even though much effort has been done to reduce jitter, etc... it will not be perfect. It is nature.
Originally Posted by lbbef /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If you feed it 4.6V, it will output 8.28V. If you feed it 4.7V, it will output 8.46V.
Which is why the quality of the 0s and 1s matter.
If you feed it 4.6V, it will output 8.28V. = 1
If you feed it 4.7V, it will output 8.46V. = 1
and
If you feed it 5V, it will output 9V which also = 1
Which is why the quality doesn't matter!
G