what's more important, a good DAC or a Good Amp?

Oct 13, 2015 at 11:57 AM Post #31 of 129
I'm curious what people believe is better for the sound overall, having a better DAC or Amp?  I would assume the DAC is the most important part since it is what converts the sound, but an amp seems to have crisp the sound, and all that good stuff.
 

 
Both things are important.  DAC can "crisp" the sound too.
 
If I had to choose, I guess I'd say a bad or no amp can make hard to power headphones sound quiet, bloaty, lacking bass, and lacking depth and lacking 3-D.  
But if the DAC is bad, then all headphones can sound bad.
 
Assuming the headphones don't need an amp to be loud enough, I'd probably give up my amp before I gave up using a DAC that's better than the mediocre onboard one on my motherboard. 
 
The harder choice is when both things are at least decent.  Then I'd probably say a better amp is better.  What defines "at least decent?"  Good question.
 
It's easier and cheaper to have an "at least decent" DAC than amp.
 
Oct 13, 2015 at 12:20 PM Post #32 of 129
I have a similar problem. Right now I'm using my portable player and iqube v5 but obviously the iqube is lack of power to drive high impedance headphones. So I'm considering either to sell my iqube and buy a better amp connected with the portable player, or buy a DAC/amp combination like the Denon DA-300USB to replace all the portable things. I'm not sure if a portable player is good enough to match a better amp, or I'd better upgrade my stuff from DAC. 
 
Oct 13, 2015 at 12:42 PM Post #33 of 129
Eurobeat, 
 
I believe your assumption is correct. The DAC in my opinion is where the "real magic" occurs for processing the music that ends up hitting your headphones. The amp is important too, as it gives your music more weight and ensures that you're hearing most everything, but the DAC is what "fine tunes" the music so that you're hearing more of what you're supposed to and less of what you're not (i.e. that "tape hiss" noise). I would advise anyone to get both, always. I don't know if I've ever seen a portable DAC that DIDN'T have an amp included with it as well? Though of course there are amp-only devices out there.
 
I've had a few come and go, so if you're looking, lemme know and I can recommend something.
 
I currently use what's probably the GREATEST portable amp/DAC out there for under like $1500.............the Celsus Sound Companion One (CO), which I hook up to my Sony Xperia Z3 smartphone. The CO's been rated by professional reviewers as having even better sound quality than amp/DACs or DAPs TWICE to THREE times its price! It sells for $595 though, so not cheap. I got it through a deal with Amazon using my new Amazon Prime Store Card, which let me pay for it in interest-free monthly installments over 12 months. If not for that, I would've just gotten the cheaper but still very good $299 Oppo HA-2 amp/DAC. They both use the same DAC chip, but we all know it's not JUST the DAC that makes an amp/DAC great. lol (Both devices are available on Amazon too for same price) The CO doesn't qualify for that deal anymore b/c they raised the minimum price for it from $499 to $599 right AFTER I bought it, but you can still apply for that card and get the CO or HA-2 using the 6 month interest-free promo at least. Still pretty good. 
 
Both devices have extra features that make them unique. The CO for example is like the only portable amp/DAC out there that can do Wi-Fi (not the lesser quality Bluetooth) streaming, while the HA-2 features quick charging and can also function as a battery pack for your phone. I prefer the sleeker design of the HA-2, but still went with the CO ONLY cuz of that promo deal. If you have an iPhone (etc) the HA-2s even better though b/c it can be used WHILE charging your Apple device at the same time, where with Android, you have to choose one or the other (lame lol). 
 
Oct 13, 2015 at 1:33 PM Post #34 of 129
Well, they do different things. But I would say it is more prudent to have a good dac. Since it is upstream of the amp and headphones, a very poor dac can make it questionable as to whether to even get a good amp or headphones. Also a good dac would almost never need to be changed, whereas a good amp might need to be changed for different headphones.
 
Oct 13, 2015 at 1:37 PM Post #35 of 129
   
Both things are important.  DAC can "crisp" the sound too.
 
If I had to choose, I guess I'd say a bad or no amp can make hard to power headphones sound quiet, bloaty, lacking bass, and lacking depth and lacking 3-D.  
But if the DAC is bad, then all headphones can sound bad.
 
Assuming the headphones don't need an amp to be loud enough, I'd probably give up my amp before I gave up using a DAC that's better than the mediocre onboard one on my motherboard. 
 
The harder choice is when both things are at least decent.  Then I'd probably say a better amp is better.  What defines "at least decent?"  Good question.
 
It's easier and cheaper to have an "at least decent" DAC than amp.

 
I agree with this.  It's very situational.  My old Audio Technica ATH-A900X for example was easy to drive and didn't really need an amp.  A good DAC made a more noticeable improvement.
 
Oct 13, 2015 at 3:58 PM Post #37 of 129
Thanks for the comments team.  I was curious how people feel about surround sound speakers?  I use 5.1 computer speakers, and it's really hard to find any DAC or Amps for them.  It seems some people dislike 5.1  

On here people have different opinions than on my computer forum lol.


One guy here said I should give up 5.1 systems, and a guy on the other fourm said that he's too much an audiophile lol!

Well thaty's what happens when you're an Audio Engineer for 30 years...


so uhh....  surround speakers aren't likd?   Would they be better with surround spekers but only in Stereo??

I like being surrounded, but it doesn'thave to be 5.1 or 7.1 input though... :)
 
Oct 13, 2015 at 4:00 PM Post #38 of 129
I don't have a problem with you, as a person, because I don't know you, as a person. I have a problem with your claim; you said something that I disagreed with and then failed (refused?) to provide any evidence to support your claim(s), instead only providing (as I said before) pithy truisms as "support." That seems counter-productive (to me) for a thread asking about advice, especially where the disagreement is relevant (e.g. interpretation/understanding of specifications).
That's a relatively new "rule" and like I said, it's mostly marketing run amok (IMHO, but I can point fingers at where it seems to come from, which are all marketing/advertising sources). There is absolutely no objective/factual basis for that (beyond the OTL example above, or similar/tangential examples of that where you're talking unsafe operation) - the whole "rule of eight" and "it must be zero" and on and on is not some sort of bona fide fact that must be followed (lest we unleash C'thulu and a thousand years of pestilence and death), and just repeating something again and again doesn't magically transmute it into a fact. Let me expand on that: The primary argument for "as low as possible" is that it results in "the least" FR shift, however it is based on two assumptions; that there's a "right" and "wrong" FR response for a given headphone/system (which is a flawed assumption) and that FR shift represents "error" (also a flawed assumption). The first one is flawed because we often don't know what the manufacturer "intended" and even if we do, there's so much variability in sound from listener to listener (if there's one thing recent research on headphones has told us...), it's hard to make any sort of broad summation (IOW its hard to say a given headphone will even sound the same to all listeners). The second one is flawed because it is predicated on the first one (you have to have an "ideal signal" in order to have error/deviation from it).

There may very well be a "manufacturer intended FR response" for a certain headphone, but as long as you're not putting the headphone/amp into an unsafe operating region, that can even be ignored if you like (and before anyone gets really worked up: I'm talking about everything from differences in Zout impacting FR to the judicious use of EQ and tone controls). And as I pointed out earlier, not all headphone designs target the same thing - not all headphone designers assume "zero ohm" outputs for their cans, have the same performance ideals, etc. This may seem like a trivial nitpick but it's important so I'll say it again: when [whoever] is designing a headphone, they aren't working from some across-the-board canonical cookbook - we currently have no universally accepted standard measurement of "flat" for a headphone, and no universally accepted "standard design" for a headphone. So every manufacturer largely does whatever they want (or whatever they think they can sell), and there's a wide variability in terms of what assumptions are made about how the headphone will sound, how it will be used, and so forth. Finally, the IEC's standard for headphone jacks specifies 120 ohm Zout on the amplifier connection, and there's a reason for that - it isn't some arbitrary value (IEC's rationale is for consistently good noise, distortion, and power performance across a very wide range of nominal load impedances and devices). So there's a published standard that disagrees with many audio guides (and it won't be the first, last, or only one to do so).

This goes back to the "sound is subjective" point - it doesn't matter how well you can measure or document something, because that doesn't tell you whether or not you will LIKE something (or more broadly, how you will feel about something at all). And that's the biggest problem I have with "the rule of eight" as an oft-repeated truism - it's trying to take an over-generalized inference ("all high Z results in big FR 'error'") and make a claim about how people will subjectively respond to it ("people will find this to sound bad"). It seems more productive, in my view, to just come out and say that Zout can mediate FR shifts, and like any other change in FR it may or may not appeal to an individual listener, and ultimately they will have to make up their own mind as to whether or not it sounds good ("sound is subjective").

On the "unsafe operation" bit: the caveat to the above is that an individual listener should be cognizant of the output specifications of whatever amplifier they are choosing (this also applies more broadly to the question of amplifier importance). If the amplifier manufacturer says, for example, no lower than 30 ohms nominal is acceptable, don't plug your 8 ohm IEMs into it. Or OTOH that the amplifier doesn't have sufficient output into 600 ohms, your high-end Beyers may not be a good choice. But as long as the amplifier (and cans) are used "within specs" I'd hope we can assume things will work swimmingly (there's always probably going to be some mfgr that "does it wrong" though), and then it really just comes down to a subjective interpretation of what is being heard.
smily_headphones1.gif

This is exactly what we're talking about above, and exactly what I'm saying is "wrong." There's absolutely nothing wrong with plugging your 30 ohm headphones into a device with 10 ohm (or even 30 ohm, or even 300 ohm) output impedance, as long as the device is stable/rated into that load (a lot of SS devices should be). Depending on the specific headphone, there *may be* a shift in the frequency response, but that isn't explicitly a bad thing - it is just a difference. You may or may not notice it, and once you notice it, you may or may not have an opinion about it. PersonalAudio.ru has actually measured and modeled the 1A, and shows no more than 3.6 dB of averaged FR shift (and that's at 300 ohm Zout (over 10:1); at 10 ohm Zout its just less than 1 dB (that's pretty small/subtle (http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/dB.htm try it for yourself), and that's also averaged and going into lower frequencies where hearing attenuates (that is, the "peak" is lower in frequency than where the "rise" begins)), and no "wildly variable impedance" that I see. Here you go:
http://personalaudio.ru/raa/otchety/naushniki/so/

I'm not at all trying to tell you what your opinion of this change will sound like, but that's more or less what will happen ("by the numbers"), its up to the conscious listener to place a value judgment on how it sounds. And yes, in theory, you could do the same thing with EQ (or you could EQ down the regions affected by the FR, or whatever else). You (or whoever else) may not notice the .9 dB shift (or may not notice it without a side-by-side comparison), may find it somewhat pleasing, may find it somewhat offensive, etc (and remember: which "way" is actually "right" is also up in the air - there isn't an explicit "right way" they're supposed to sound) - that's the subjective part, and measurements can't tell you how you're going to feel about something. The change in FR will happen though, the question is just "what will you do about it?"


First of all, that data you linked is for the old MDR-1R, not the 1A.  Also, a 3.6 decibel change in the mid-bass at 100Hz is a hugely audible change when it comes to how boomy/bloated teh bass will sound.  And even the 0.9dB shift, subtle as it is, with 10ohm output, is a very bad thing, IMO, with a headphone that already has bass bordering on being bloated.

You don't see those big impedance swings I talked abotu because those plots are, again, for the 1R, not the 1A.  The 1A has more swing in its impedance than the 1R had.

I definitely can notice a 0.9dB shift in mid-bass level.  Hell, I can hear a 0.4dB shift.
 
Oct 13, 2015 at 4:20 PM Post #40 of 129
 
First of all, that data you linked is for the old MDR-1R, not the 1A.  Also, a 3.6 decibel change in the mid-bass at 100Hz is a hugely audible change when it comes to how boomy/bloated teh bass will sound.  And even the 0.9dB shift, subtle as it is, with 10ohm output, is a very bad thing, IMO, with a headphone that already has bass bordering on being bloated.

You don't see those big impedance swings I talked abotu because those plots are, again, for the 1R, not the 1A.  The 1A has more swing in its impedance than the 1R had.

I definitely can notice a 0.9dB shift in mid-bass level.  Hell, I can hear a 0.4dB shift.


What did I just read.....?

 
  Eurobeat, 
 
Are we talking surround sound headphones or surround sound systems here? Please specify. 


Sorry, I meant 5.1 speakers.  I'm going off topic for a second.

One member on here said I should stay away from them, but not sure if he meant 5.1 channels, or multiple speakers?  i like multiple speakrs over 2 speakers.  Idc if I had 10 speakers in 2.1 Stereo, I just want multiple speakers... :)

Just curious what people think about setups with 5.1 and multiple speakers...

Thanks :)
 
Oct 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM Post #41 of 129
First of all, that data you linked is for the old MDR-1R, not the 1A.  Also, a 3.6 decibel change in the mid-bass at 100Hz is a hugely audible change when it comes to how boomy/bloated teh bass will sound.  And even the 0.9dB shift, subtle as it is, with 10ohm output, is a very bad thing, IMO, with a headphone that already has bass bordering on being bloated.


You don't see those big impedance swings I talked abotu because those plots are, again, for the 1R, not the 1A.  The 1A has more swing in its impedance than the 1R had.


I definitely can notice a 0.9dB shift in mid-bass level.  Hell, I can hear a 0.4dB shift.


Ah didn't catch "1A" or "1R" do you have measurements for the 1A?

As far as the rest - that's basically my point: in your opinion that shift is a very bad thing and you are personally able to discern a 1 dB difference in response. But neither you nor I can speak for all people and all situations, and that's exactly where I'm taking issue with "the rule of eight" - its overgeneralized/oversimplified and completely ignores context in the discussion. Side note: discrimination of .4 dB differences is fantastic!

Eurobeat: IME 5.1 headphones are usually not great, but there's nothing explicitly wrong with 5.1 (or other surround sound) setups. They are a somewhat different beast than stereo though, and usually serve different material than stereo.
 
Oct 13, 2015 at 5:04 PM Post #42 of 129
Ah didn't catch "1A" or "1R" do you have measurements for the 1A?

As far as the rest - that's basically my point: in your opinion that shift is a very bad thing and you are personally able to discern a 1 dB difference in response. But neither you nor I can speak for all people and all situations, and that's exactly where I'm taking issue with "the rule of eight" - its overgeneralized/oversimplified and completely ignores context in the discussion. Side note: discrimination of .4 dB differences is fantastic!

Eurobeat: IME 5.1 headphones are usually not great, but there's nothing explicitly wrong with 5.1 (or other surround sound) setups. They are a somewhat different beast than stereo though, and usually serve different material than stereo.



Thanks..

My Logitech G35 was a Virtual 7.1 headset.  The 7.1 was lighter than the 2.1 Stereo in terms of overall impact, but the sound seemed nicer overall in 7.1 mode.

I have 5.1 speakers now, and they are simulate 5.1 from stereo.  Logitech has "Matrix mode" whichis similar to the 7.1 on the headphones.  without matrix mode it wil only play from the 2 front speakers, unless I have "Speaker Fill" on from my "Sound Menu" which is Windows property I believe.

I'm just curious about speaker setups and what people prefer.  It seems a lot of people like 2.1 systems, but I like speakers around me.  I wonder if there's a limit to the number of speakers you can have with a system, with it just being stereo output?  I would assume the AMP/DAC unit, or some home theater unit will be what you would need to have a ton of inputs on?

I'm not really sure how it all works though... :(
 
Oct 13, 2015 at 5:10 PM Post #43 of 129
 
What did I just read.....?

 

Sorry, I meant 5.1 speakers.  I'm going off topic for a second.

One member on here said I should stay away from them, but not sure if he meant 5.1 channels, or multiple speakers?  i like multiple speakrs over 2 speakers.  Idc if I had 10 speakers in 2.1 Stereo, I just want multiple speakers... :)

Just curious what people think about setups with 5.1 and multiple speakers...

Thanks :)

 
I would gladly accept a donation of a proper listening room and a well-DSPed X.1 setup. That isn't what most people have, of course, hence the misplaced derision on this board.
 
  I'm just curious about speaker setups and what people prefer.  It seems a lot of people like 2.1 systems, but I like speakers around me.  I wonder if there's a limit to the number of speakers you can have with a system, with it just being stereo output?  I would assume the AMP/DAC unit, or some home theater unit will be what you would need to have a ton of inputs on?

I'm not really sure how it all works though... :(
 

 
HDMI 2.0 supports up to 32 channels, though that would mean having 32 speakers wired up and amped somehow ^_^
 
Oct 13, 2015 at 5:20 PM Post #44 of 129
Eurobeat, 
 
I have a Denon AVR-1612 receiver (click here for the newest version as the 1612 is 4 years old) and the equally awesome Energy (owned by Klipsch) Take Classic 5.1 speaker system. Together they make a great pair, are both very well-rated, and look really premium too (esp the Energy speakers)! They sound incredible and make watching movies on blu-ray worth every penny! In my opinion, they sound just as great as any Bose system does but at 1/3rd the price! 
 
The Denon isn't super user-friendly, but I got the hang of it, and can prob help if you buy it. I mean, it's prob not as easy to set up as a Bose is, but still........ 1/3rd the price (if including Energy Take Classic). lol
 
Click HERE to buy Take Classic at a better price. Link above is only for info. 
 
Oct 13, 2015 at 6:07 PM Post #45 of 129
Thanks guys.  Currently I have a Logitech Z5300e 5.1 setup, and I do like it a lot, but it was cheap at 200$, and that was 10+ years ago.....  I'm sure there are better setups, but just seems to be hard to find a good amp/DAC for these "computer" speakers.  I'm not really sure how people setup speakers overall, and all the inputs and plugs and crap for various things.

It just seems very hard to be able to power these speakers, or others, without having a sound card....


I bought an adapter for my old "Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro" so I could use it in a new build, but everyone said I should get an external amp/dac.  I liked that soundcard a lot though...  I did hear that the issue with internet soundcards is the fact that there are electric currents running through the computer, and the sound card is made to "reduce that" but it's hard with all the generated stuff inside the case...

However I was looking to use this soundcard outside of the case, but not sure how ell it would work...

I wass thinking of using it with thislaptop, but I'm also looking to build a new computer soo....  It's hard to now What I'm doing LOL...


The Z53400's are also dying, the inputs for the RCA cables are very bad on some of them, and will short out if they aren't in "the right position."


So to spend about 100$ (35 for the PCIe to PCI converter at 45-65 on the external PCIe slot for a dying 5.1 setup and a laptop I might not use)....


Granted I have the converter now, BUT LOOking to return it since I have tomorrow left to return it lol :(.


Thanks all... :(
 

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