what's more important, a good DAC or a Good Amp?

[Eurobeat]

Hello all,

I'm curious what people believe is better for the sound overall, having a better DAC or Amp?  I would assume the DAC is the most important part since it is what converts the sound, but an amp seems to have crisp the sound, and all that good stuff.


So I'm curious what other people think?

Thanks!

 

[linuxgamer]

I'm no expert but it depends on usage I would say for which should be the better piece of hardware. For driving headphones you want an amp almost every time, especially for fps gamers like myself the amp is absolutely necessary no matter what piece of hardware is producing the sound. But it seems to me from a less experienced perspective is that if the amp will play nice with your headphones or speakers then I would want the DAC to be the better piece of hardware every time. I would also assume it's pointless to have a high quality amp and a low quality DAC, as if the sound is garbage is putting it through an amp going to help?

 

[Youth]

To me they are equally important but most people will probably tell you that the amp is the most important piece.

 

[obobskivich]

IME there is much more variability between amps, and matching the amp to the load (speakers or headphones or both) is somewhat more critical than matching your source (with a line level output; that can be a DAC, a CD player, a phono preamp, a tape deck, an FM tuner, whatever) to something that accepts a line level input. So based on this, I'd put more thought into the amplifier relative to the headphones you've chosen. That said, the source (or sources) can have an impact on sound quality, but it depends on what media you're going from - IME the differences between DACs are extremely subtle (if even noticeable), but the differences between tape decks or FM tuners or game consoles can be much more significant, and source quality should be considered in such venues. If you're dealing with a source that needs a preamp or similar, that component is also important to think about (e.g. a phono preamp).

 

[knopi]

Obviously it depends on your headphones or whatever you want use. So for example for adult passive speaker you will need high quality monoblocks which is pretty pricey if you will want max from them. And another example I have pretty good experience with high sensitivy and low impedence headphone like LCD2, HE500 which sounded pretty good out of the quality DAC which have basic pre out. And Westone UM3X as well it was good out of the everything. And for example JH13, HD800 I always felt if I had right amp for them there could be noticeable upgrade. While for Audeze I felt the most difficult was find right suited amp because of their darker character not power.
 
So yes quality DAC is the most important in my opinion, it is basis. Unfortunately as you see the real quality one is very expensive. Audio is big business today.

 

[jodgey4]

Transducers (headphones, speakers) > amp with enough power >  clean DAC/source. If your transducers don't have an amp with enough power and damping factor, then that's going to be more noticeable than differences b/w DACs. I think source gear (DAC/amp) should never cost close to the value of your transducers. When I see people spend $300 on a DAC/amp for a $300 can I scratch my head. I'd rather get $600 cans and run them out of my phone!

 

[obobskivich]

Transducers (headphones, speakers) > amp with enough power >  clean DAC/source. If your transducers don't have an amp with enough power and damping factor, then that's going to be more noticeable than differences b/w DACs. I think source gear (DAC/amp) should never cost close to the value of your transducers. When I see people spend $300 on a DAC/amp for a $300 can I scratch my head. I'd rather get $600 cans and run them out of my phone!

Damping factor is largely a machination of over-zealous marketing h34r:, but the broader point about amplification being important is still valid. WRT sourcing - it really depends on what you're sourcing from as to whether or not that component is extremely important (this doesn't need to mean "extremely expensive" - price is not always a good indicator of performance or quality). High performance DAC ICs are available these days in largely everything (and stop and consider how much a smartphone actually costs too), but if you want high performance FM, tape, vinyl, etc you're going to need a high quality source component, which may end up costing more than the headphone amp (especially depending on what the headphones actually require - if they're very sensitive and easy to drive, they don't need much in the way of amplification) - I don't think it would make sense to throw $1000s into a top-of-the-line vinyl rig for $80 cans though, but that's just my view.

 

[jodgey4]

OTL amp with IEMs is something you'd do?

(super cherry picked example, but you get my point). Also, note that I didn't say the cost of your amp needs to be higher than your DAC/source. The prices could be wildly off, but a good DAC/source is worthless without an amp that can make it show. For mid-tier IEM's like Noble Savants or something, the $100 O2 + a $400 turntable rig would be perfectly sensible IMHO.

 

[superjawes]

Amps are really just extensions of headphones in my mind. You pick your transducers, then you pick an amp that can properly drive them. A DAC might offer a nice improvement, but once you have a good DAC, you might not be able to hear any difference when stepping up to a more expensive one. (This is also dependent on how transparent your headphones are.)

 

[obobskivich]

OTL amp with IEMs is something you'd do? (super cherry picked example, but you get my point).

No, because it may blow up in my face (or blow up the IEM in my ear); a lot of OTLs are not specified or capable of running into a load lower than 30-50 ohms, so hooking them up to something that could be as low as 6-8 ohms is not a good idea. I think what you're ultimately trying to ask is running low impedance headphones on high Zout (that doesn't have to mean an OTL), and I have no problems with doing that (I actually am currently listening to a pair of cans which have a rated nominal impedance that's about 1/3 of the amplifier's Zout) - I've done this with IEMs in the past too, out of mixers and other rack gear that can have Zout into the hundreds (or thousands) of ohms (usually gear that either follows IEC standards or otherwise has high Zout). The overall FR may change (it depends on the impedance of the load) with response to Zout, but just because we can measure (and/or hear) the change doesn't mean one or the other is "right" or "wrong" - they're just different. With IEMs those changes are usually different than with full size cans, especially if you're comparing BA IEMs to conventional dynamic cans; the differences don't always occur in the same frequency range. This is all modelable (or measurable) if you have more specific examples, but nothing broad and generalized can be said about it other than "it can cause changes." These FR changes, however, are generally never what marketers are talking about when they mention "damping factor" (usually they talk about things like "tighter bass" or "faster bass" that they rarely can nail down let alone quantify in some meaningful way). In reality, there is no singular "damping factor" for a system - it will change WRT impedance and is influenced by more than just the amplifier's Zout, so it's kind of a nonsense spec (I said that before, right?). In principle the amplifier's output impedance (coupled with the voice coil and wire resistance) can have an impact on overall system Q, but again you're left debating what is "right" or "wrong" in the face of measurable differences (and unfortunately that's a place that science will not go). And in some (I'm hesitant to say "many") cases, the differences are not generally perceptible, especially if you aren't doing a side-by-side comparison (even with fairly reactive headphones, IME, its a subtle difference).

Make sure the amplifier has sufficient output power, low noise, good channel tracking, is stable, etc and you're generally good to go.

Also, note that I didn't say the cost of your amp needs to be higher than your DAC/source. The prices could be wildly off, but a good DAC/source is worthless without an amp that can make it show. For mid-tier IEM's like Noble Savants or something, the $100 O2 + a $400 turntable rig would be perfectly sensible IMHO.

I'd agree with this no problem.

 

[jodgey4]

We're taking past each other, other than that bass bloat and FR change in many BA and dynamic cans, as well as current limiting and etc.. There's more to the subject of course, but I don't think the info helps the OP learn priorities. In the end, sound is subjective, of course.

 

[Eurobeat]

Hmm lots of good points, don'tknow if I can post back to each one.



So in a sense the Headphones are the most important part, then the amp, and then it seems the DAC?


Essentially I'm looking into the "Aune T1 Mk2" whihc is a tube DAC.  A lot of people say this is a great device, especially with the tube.  I was thinking of getting this and then maybe another Tube Amp, since the SS Amp inside apparently isn't all that amazing.

It's a cheaper DAC, but people seemt o really like it.

I'm not sure if there are much better choices out there for me though...  I guess once I get a pair I love I should be able to find a good setup?

Hopefully I can use the setup wiht other Hps are well, but I guess we will see what's going on....

 

[obobskivich]

We're taking past each other,

How so?

other than that bass bloat and FR change in many BA and dynamic cans, as well as current limiting and etc..

"Bass bloat" is a subjective interpretation and an over-broad generalization. If the headphones have a rise in impedance there will be an increase in amplitude there as Zout also rises. That doesn't mean "bass bloat" and there is not a universal increase in bass for all headphones/IEMs as Zout rises; it depends on the headphones and their impedance - there is not a single good reason I can think of for in-specificity about this. There are also many headphones for which this isn't really a necessary consideration (because they either don't exhibit a significant FR change, or don't exhibit a noticeable FR change). Current limiting is another discussion entirely, but if the amplifier can provide sufficient power for your target output (sensitivity will tell you power-to-SPL; safe levels are ~85 dB and lower, but you should factor 10-20dB of extra head-room so aim at something like 100 dB) it's nothing that needs to be "worked out" - if there's sufficient power, there's sufficient power. And what exactly do you mean by "and etc" - what else do you mean to talk about?

There's more to the subject of course,

Such as?

but I don't think the info helps the OP learn priorities.

Why not? More information is always better, and it's not like this is spoken word - folks can come back and read or re-read whatever they want. Let's not tear "OP" apart like a paper doll based on myriad assumptions.

So in a sense the Headphones are the most important part, then the amp, and then it seems the DAC?

Headphones (or speakers) are absolutely the most important part, the amplifier is (generally) dictated by the headphones and in many cases will be "next most important" (I like that "amplifier is an extension of the headphones" idea/analogy). Sourcing could be said to matter until it doesn't - eventually you will reach a point where the headphones (or speakers) are ultimately the bottleneck. With a lot of digital media (and associated sources) this isn't so hard to do, but with analog content it may be unattainable or require significant equipment to attain (e.g. FM radio will never be CD quality, and very revealing/good sounding cans (or speakers) will reveal that, but a quality FM tuner is still a lot nicer sounding than a clock radio).

Essentially I'm looking into the "Aune T1 Mk2" whihc is a tube DAC.  A lot of people say this is a great device, especially with the tube.  I was thinking of getting this and then maybe another Tube Amp, since the SS Amp inside apparently isn't all that amazing.

I don't know that one, so I can't comment on it. But I would say that generally you're better off picking an amplifier to go with a set (or sets) of headphones, as opposed to picking an amplifier and then finding headphones after the fact. In other words, what do you have (or are you going to have) and then look for an amplifier that serves that. Combined DAC/amp units can be a very efficient way to deal with digital sources, as long as all of their functionality suits your needs (there's a lot of them that only take USB input, some that only take digital inputs, etc - not so useful if you also want to hook up a turntable, but no problem if you're just plugging into your laptop). If you're going with a device that will also work with a computer and act as an audio interface (e.g. something that plugs in via USB, FireWire, PCI, PCI Express, etc) you should also do a cursory search for driver problems or other quirks - the nicest hardware in the world can be brought down by bad drivers, and that's nothing you probably want to deal with.

 

[jodgey4]

I don't owe you a white paper on this subject, sorry.

Spend more time in the science forums, that goes to the OP as well. The subject has been, and always will be, endlessly debated. If the OP has any specific questions, I'm happy to answer.

The T1 is well loved with many headphones, which are you using? What's your budget? What gear have you tried before, if any?

 

[Eurobeat]

How so?
"Bass bloat" is a subjective interpretation and an over-broad generalization. If the headphones have a rise in impedance there will be an increase in amplitude there as Zout also rises. That doesn't mean "bass bloat" and there is not a universal increase in bass for all headphones/IEMs as Zout rises; it depends on the headphones and their impedance - there is not a single good reason I can think of for in-specificity about this. There are also many headphones for which this isn't really a necessary consideration (because they either don't exhibit a significant FR change, or don't exhibit a noticeable FR change). Current limiting is another discussion entirely, but if the amplifier can provide sufficient power for your target output (sensitivity will tell you power-to-SPL; safe levels are ~85 dB and lower, but you should factor 10-20dB of extra head-room so aim at something like 100 dB) it's nothing that needs to be "worked out" - if there's sufficient power, there's sufficient power. And what exactly do you mean by "and etc" - what else do you mean to talk about?
Such as?
Why not? More information is always better, and it's not like this is spoken word - folks can come back and read or re-read whatever they want. Let's not tear "OP" apart like a paper doll based on myriad assumptions.
Headphones (or speakers) are absolutely the most important part, the amplifier is (generally) dictated by the headphones and in many cases will be "next most important" (I like that "amplifier is an extension of the headphones" idea/analogy). Sourcing could be said to matter until it doesn't - eventually you will reach a point where the headphones (or speakers) are ultimately the bottleneck. With a lot of digital media (and associated sources) this isn't so hard to do, but with analog content it may be unattainable or require significant equipment to attain (e.g. FM radio will never be CD quality, and very revealing/good sounding cans (or speakers) will reveal that, but a quality FM tuner is still a lot nicer sounding than a clock radio).
I don't know that one, so I can't comment on it. But I would say that generally you're better off picking an amplifier to go with a set (or sets) of headphones, as opposed to picking an amplifier and then finding headphones after the fact. In other words, what do you have (or are you going to have) and then look for an amplifier that serves that. Combined DAC/amp units can be a very efficient way to deal with digital sources, as long as all of their functionality suits your needs (there's a lot of them that only take USB input, some that only take digital inputs, etc - not so useful if you also want to hook up a turntable, but no problem if you're just plugging into your laptop). If you're going with a device that will also work with a computer and act as an audio interface (e.g. something that plugs in via USB, FireWire, PCI, PCI Express, etc) you should also do a cursory search for driver problems or other quirks - the nicest hardware in the world can be brought down by bad drivers, and that's nothing you probably want to deal with.

Thanks for the info.  I guess I'll looking for some HPs and go from there.  The Aune works via USB, so I don't know about drivers and such for it (did't know a lot of these had drivers, besides sound cards)?

Hopefully I find a good pair of HPs soon.... (((((((((((((((