[IEMCrazy]

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So in other words this is all speculation?

 
No, in other words, the point of the discussion is about the miscategorization of headphones as "mid-fi" that are hi-fi, based on the criteria that they're not the tippy-top of hi-fi, and the abuse of the term "hi-fi" in its newly distorted version to mean "only the top end speakers" instead of "speakers meeting a high level of fidelity."  The other sidebar point of the discussion is the gross overcharging for speaker technology, and the willingness of many audiphiles to justify them as something other than that.  There is no speculating about anything going on. 
 
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  Thats called theft in some places and is unethical in the highest degrees.  I call that shady business. The idea that Headphones manufacturers are giving me what I want is laughable, its quite the opposite.  They are giving you what they want to give you, which is super expensive headphones that are not at all efficient and require you to buy yet more expensive gear just to use.  If anyone should rally against audio designers, it should be for the lack of efficiency in high end headphones.  Thats at least a start.  
 
Inefficient anything in todays tech world is ridiculous.  

 
To play devil's advocate for the points of view that seem to be contrary to my own, it's certainly not theft, and while unethical from the standpoint that it's not how I would conduct business, it's not unethical from the standpoint that they're doing anything dishonest or misleading anyone.  They haven't lied about specifications, or tiering.  Insulting to reward brand loyalty by offering a new product at 3x the price of your previous product.  But not theft or shady, and perfectly within reason on the mfrs end.
 
As I said, Sennheiser's own marketing isn't even trying to spin their more affordable models as being somehow downgraded.  Their customers are doing that all on their own in an attempt to rationalize the prices of the new bleeding edge models (usually the same folks who try to spin anything other than bleeding-edge as being not high fidelity.)   Senn is simply saying "I have this new product, and if you want it, this is what it'll cost you.   I have other models that aren't quite as good but are still excellent hi-fi cans for a lot less money." It's the customers who are trying to spin the more affordable models as not being of sufficiently high fidelity and pretend that the dangling-carrot price is actually fair. Exclusivity pricing appeals to people.  The manufacturers know this and are appealing to that desire. In that sense their customers are being offered exactly what they want.  If HD800 were $600, how many people do you think would be praising it as "almost as good as HE-500".  It's easy to get into audiophile's brains. That's no secret around here, and we're all guilty of falling for it sometimes. 
 
Pricing like that is usually an "introductory" price to pay for R&D.  They try it out for a few months to please investors ans banks, and when customers don't buy them, they cut the prices until they do.  Audio is the one odd industry that it seems insane pricing not only generates sales, but generates people who endlessly defend the price. 
 
In that sense, they may not be giving you what you want, but they seem to be giving olor1n exactly what he wants.  He seems very pleased with what they offered him, and seems proud to defend that.  There are many olor1n's on these forums that feel they got just what they wanted at a fair price.  As long as that is true, you will not see prices go down. You and I may disagree with how fair that price was, but it doesn't invalidate that those people feel their purchase was fair.  I don't begrudge them that, so long as they don't go out of their way to diminish the rest of the hi-fi realm as not being the hi-fi realm because it sits beneath the "best-that-money-can-buy" products.
 
Again, the crux of the issue is the mangling of the words "high fidelity" to mean "most elite products club" instead of "the collection of products that are high in fidelity", which is a far larger category than the dozen or so "most elite products."   The pricing is a separate issue.  The pricing is insulting, but as long as they have people paying for it who don't feel insulted, they aren't doing anything wrong, and the moment they stop having people pay for it at that price, they'll happily adjust the price down until people pay for it again.  Regarding Senn specifically,there is a business ethics issue going on regarding enforcing the MSRP instead of MAP that borders on price-fixing.  That's a separate conversation though that doesn't belong here at all.
 
Since the OP here is a member of the cable trade, we can probably safely assume that products priced at more than their value won't phase him

  (again not a knock at cables, I'm in the market for cables myself...but pricing on most cables is certainly over their actual value, much like these headphones.) But the fake segmentation of "mid-fi" at the hands of "elite products club-fi" is part of the effect he's experiencing regarding his headphone choice.
 
The discussion on inefficiency I meant to get into in the last thread you mentioned it on, but I doubt this is a suitable thread for it.  Short response though: I think there are arguments for inefficiency as I experienced with my Denons (efficient) where highly efficient low impedance headphones are more prone to pick up various noise than inefficient headphones, so that's probably a more interesting conversation/debate for its own thread sometime.  I'd love to see various points of view on that!
 
Back on topic: My advice to Chris stands.  Don't fall victim to the "hi-fi/mid-fi" distinction that has been wrongfully spread.  You're severely limiting your exposure to various takes on headphone design, fit, and signature by doing so.  It's still hi-fi even if the Summit-Fi fans want to pretend it isn't, and as you've learned, just because it's "summit-fi", doesn't mean you'll like it much better.  After all, today's summit-fi is tomorrow's pathetic mid-fi!

  Try headphones that interest you regardless of where some would randomly classify it. You may be surprised. And don't neglect the source/amp! 

 

[wje]

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Thats called theft in some places and is unethical in the highest degrees.  I call that shady business. The idea that Headphones manufacturers are giving me what I want is laughable, its quite the opposite.  They are giving you what they want to give you, which is super expensive headphones that are not at all efficient and require you to buy yet more expensive gear just to use.  If anyone should rally against audio designers, it should be for the lack of efficiency in high end headphones.  Thats at least a start.  
 
Inefficient anything in todays tech world is ridiculous.  

 
Wait.  Are you implying that headphone manufacturers are in cahoots with amp manufacturers?  So, essentially, headphone manufacturers keep making inefficient headphones, so there will be business for the amp companies?  I believe that's called collusion - and, it's illegal.

 

[wje]

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The Audio-Technica, Denon, and Grado flagships are all pretty efficient. But they are all generally considered second-tier by consensus when compared to their less-efficient flagship counterparts.

 
Usually, though, the result of using an amplifier with a headphone that's relatively efficient will still result in better sound.  Quite frequently, an iPod might appear to supply enough power to drive a pair of headphones, which can be done.  However, in order for the music to have some balls, the amplifier may be needed to allow the gear to dig deeper and provide the extra power that certain passages within the music may require.

 

[swbf2cheater]

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Thats called theft in some places and is unethical in the highest degrees.  I call that shady business. The idea that Headphones manufacturers are giving me what I want is laughable, its quite the opposite.  They are giving you what they want to give you, which is super expensive headphones that are not at all efficient and require you to buy yet more expensive gear just to use.  If anyone should rally against audio designers, it should be for the lack of efficiency in high end headphones.  Thats at least a start.  
 
Inefficient anything in todays tech world is ridiculous.  

 
Wait.  Are you implying that headphone manufacturers are in cahoots with amp manufacturers?  So, essentially, headphone manufacturers keep making inefficient headphones, so there will be business for the amp companies?  I believe that's called collusion - and, it's illegal.

 
 
I definitely did not say that! LOL! 
 
I simply mean that inefficient headphones are dumb and more effort should be put into their design.  It is something very much in the realm of possibility and lately, with the odd and sudden bloating of hi fi gear prices of the past few years, its a quality sorely overlooked and flat out neglected. There are plenty of amazing sounding headphones that do not require insane voltage just to use, for $900-5000US I consider it a neglect of common sense when it comes to efficiency, at these prices I should be able to run them off the static generated on my floor when I walk.  I would much rather pay for an efficient HD800 that requires no amplifier at $600 than paying $1200 for an HD800 + the cost, time and stress over actually finding an amplifier.  If any headphone is prude, its the HD800.  Some companies are clearly designing hard to drive headphones so you come full circle back to this company when it comes to amplification needs.  This crap needs to end immediately.  If nobody speaks up and demands more efficiency, we will be stuck in the Dark Ages of audio for a long time coming.   Dunno about you, but I want to move forward, not backwards.
 
Sennheiser released the HD700 and made an inferior product, they didn't improve on anything in the slightest in my opinion.  They simply redesigned some things and slapped a lower price on it.  Its still inefficient and hard to find gear that meshes with it.  Demand and you shall receive.  Cower and accept whatever is tossed at you and naturally these companies will be issuing out anything they want...key word is THEY...not YOU.   <3

 

[devouringone3]

As long as Hi-Fi is the Highest-Fi (and that Head-Fi starts with an "H" , only the flagship, total-best headphones and all-time classics, will deserve that title(I'm not even sure of the latter one). The low-/mid-/hi-fi barriers aren't evenly set, can't you live with that? If no, absolutely not, and if "mid-fi", only the word, annoys you, then it might be because you are denying the reality that you also want to be one to own a HD800, a T1, or a HE-6, any of the ultimates. We all "want" the best, right? (I did not say "can afford").

 
Kudos to you on managing to top even myself in writing a "TL;DR" thread that most likely will be skipped over by 50% of the readership 

  It was a well thought out, and excellent post, especially the portion on comfort, which is the oft-forgotten component of hi-fi.
 
I've broken a few paragraphs apart to respond individually to a few portions, and bolded the more critical parts.  The first statement here is absolutely the false assumption from which my dislike for the classification of "mid-fi" stems.   Hi-Fi and Highest-Fi are not the same thing (didn't know about highest-fi ).   Only the flagships belong in "Highest-Fi", or "Summit-Fi" (for which we have a whole forum. didn't know either)  No one disputes that even among hi-fi there is a top-tier of stratospheric level equipment.  To claim that only the top-tier is high fidelity rather than just being the top-tier of high fidelity is little more than status-symbolism and creates an incorrect categorization and stratification.  It would be like claiming a Jaguar isn't a luxury car because Rolls Royce exists.  Or claiming that a Nascar racing stock car isn't a performance race car becase Ferrarris exist.  Examining the meaning of the word high fidelity indicates why the belittling of "mid-fi" of may hi-fi cans is both inaccurate and deceptive.  "High Fidelity" refers to how true to either the original recording or true to live performance (depending on your desired interperetation) the playback performance of the equipment is.   High Fidelity means that it is a level of equipment that reproduces a very true reproduction.   It does not mean that it is the absolute top tier piece of equipment available or the absolute best fidelity at any price (no, but the gradation is still there, not everything is equally reproducing accurately records and high fidelity. Mid-fi is in the "mid"dle only because hi, which is higher-fidelity, exists) (Hi-Fi of yesterday is not the same today or tomorrow, SR009 managed to make even someone like Jude discover new details in the songs he knew the most, he then wondered (in the SR-009 Head-Fi TV episode) if there was anything more beyond this level... in the future there will surely be).  It means it is in the category that is very true.   While gear can devalue or be outperformed over time, it does not materially produce the recording or intended live performance with any less accumen than it previously did (relatively to other gear, yes, it looses some acumen (sound quality is a continuum that is in expansion, not so much on the bottom end of the worst possible headphones, but on the other side aiming for better SQ, HD800, pushing the bar, is also making the top end of the continuum farther away from their own other headphones, which gets devalued even thought nothing was changed in them)(problem is that the world keeps going on and it's frustrating because top end isn't so well defined either, and so many great headphones stands so close to it, to the right, to the left, a little bit on the bottom... trying to get closer or trying to define the "top" level their own way, "my headphone is the best because bass in real life reproduced through headphones should sound like...").  If a piece of equipment was previously considered to be very true to source, it is still true to source, and that "high-fidelity' label can not be removed simply because somewhat higher levels of performance exist.
 
The "mid-fi" tier does exist.  It is that what sits between the very low-fidelity equipment such as stock Apple earbuds, Skullcandy, dollar store earphones, etc, and the level that begins genuine high fidelity to the source/performance.  It is equipment that sounds good, sounds better than the really low-performing equipment, but has not yet reached a level of very good fidelity to the recording or performance.  The term mid-fi is perfectly fine, it is the inaccurate application of the term to nearly the complete range of high fidelity equipment (I'm getting to under your definition of high-fidelity, it's not summit-fi at all, but only a headphone that does his job, serves his purpose, well enough, an nobly?) that doesn't represent the top-tier of hi-fi that is very misleading, and nears shameful.  It spins a word that has always been used to describe anything that classifies for a certain level of performance as a broad classification for performance, and twists it to represent only the highest end of that entire classification, which already had the sub-classification of being top-tier, best-of-the-best.  When were are talking about studio-reference level equipment, It's highly unlikely that that equipment does not represent a very high level of fidelity (don't you headphone companies should make their studio purposed opus, among all other headphones they sell, the most "high-fidelity" of the bunch? people recording music in studios are doing a lot more than just enjoying music they are creating it, they should have the best grasp on it before mass-production of their disk)
 
If people feel the need to stratify their top-end equipment other than by calling it top-end equipment, fine. Stratify away.  Just use accurate terminology that doesn't manage to mis-classify vast swaths of an industry, mislead those of low experience in the hobby, and generally serve to belittle the very high quality gear that exists, and continiues to exist.
 
Note that I'm not ranting at you, but your prhaseology was perfect (ok actually I didn't even expected any reply, I very glad you did, and I did, put quite a bit of effort in my post, so thanks!).  It described exactly the thinking that has created this disastrous moniker recently, and it was the perfect palce to discuss it.  If it continues in this way, the words "high fidelity" will lose their genuine meaning (it already has quite a difficult to "seize" meaning, you're saying it's more general than people think it is?) of half a century, and only marketing, spin, and boasting will remain.
 

 
the "current big thing", wanting to make a more reasonable choice instead, staggering/trembling a little not knowing what to do each time, insecure, unsure, buying many headphones only, beating around the bush. Eventually your head will become full of ideas, knowledge about headphones, and desires that you cannot fulfill, or have not fulfilled, because of lack of money, because of lack of guts --that is only if you are unhappy... if you are happy with Mid-Fi, I'm bowing to you...Mid-Fi is totally worth it and awesome, it's just that it's hard not to be bothered by lust and desire on Head-Fi--.
 

 
Agreed, in fact "being bothered by lust and desire" is pretty much the only thing that keeps me with any eye on the LCD-2 and the like at all.  When reading H-F it's easy to "want" to upgrade.  Then when I put my "lowly mid-fi, studio-reference and beyond level" headphones on my head, listen to music, I always am reminded "what on earth would an upgrade give me?  Everything I think I may want to upgrade for in performance, I always end up finding that I already have it (when you have something world-class I think you need to realize it and stop the hamster a little) (me I'm not even using an amplifier yet so I have my way to do).   I would submit that the more headphones you buy, the more sound signatures you hear, the more experience you gain (totally, we always care only about the flaws, living with a certain headphone (not you "one" headphone" is often very difficult to do [you keep thinking about the price it has cost you, and trying to realize if it was really worth it over your other gear] so we need to learn the most out of the experience to not repeat it endlessly, let's call this "upgrading in the good direction" , I see this paragraph is talking a lot about that), the more you realize just what each upgrade gives you and just what ones you don't actually need or even don't desire.  That's where the true expense of headphiledom comes in.  You don't know what you like or dislike until you've tried many things.  But once you've gained the experience of trying and learning, you realize just how little you get for so much more, and just how much you can get for so much less.
 
I need to confess that I am so happy that the headphone quest is over for me. I have sent my HP2 to Joseph Grado this morning along with a cheque of 1400 dollars. I should be good to receive the best Grado headphone -- hum, how should I phrase that... "possible", the "best possible Grado", yeah I like that -- "possible", in a few months. I'm now looking and opening myself to headphone amplifier FINALLY, because I've been listening to my Laptop or my DAC (it has some kind of headphone amplifying-out, so I plan on living using it until then, but it sounds PRETTY MUCH exactly the same as my Dell Inspiron mini-jack can't tell the difference even though I can clearly the tell the difference between the sound of these two and the sound of my Razer Mako computer speakers, so it's a good thing even my less resolving, fast, or detailed Grados are showing this very clearly to me). Yesterday I fell in love with the ECP audio DSHA-1 amp, designed with Grado in mind... but my loves do come and go, so I need to give it some time.
 
Somewhere you mentioned about the depreciation of value of money and technology over time as well.  Unfortunately the core of the pricing problem is that Sennheiser didn't get that memo.  They still think HD650 is worth the same as it was a decade ago (they never lowered it's price? ah I thought all audio companies did that, to make room for the new stock of HD800, SR009, LCD-3 etc. actually I was even surprised Audeze kept the fairly identical looking LCD-2).  It's the dichotomy of the lack of depreciation of old tech, yet the reduction in value by the collective intelligence at Head-Fi (definitely) and the like that has made the whole "mid-fi" dilemma.  By Sennheisers own price point, HD650, HD600 are both every penny's worth of value as they were last decade.  yet Head-Fier's insist that time has moved on and those headphones are no longer what they were, and are now "mid-fi" (...).  Beyer and AKG have lowered the prices on their old flagships however, but they have not moved their new tech into realistic price brackets in the mean-time. By Sennheiser's own marketing those headphones are still reference, still designed for studio use, still designed for audiophiles.  Same for AKG's standards.  Oddly the companies that are selling overpriced gear aren't even trying to pretend their old gear is any less hi-fi than it once was, while all their customers seem to want to think so 

 

Returning to the unhappy or frustrated guy, he has for long become an individual of the higher-profile, seasoned and savvy, but his headphone roster doesn't reflect that alone (which isn't a bad thing in itself). Why don't you sell all you're headphone and keep only one? The music itself won't change dramatically. Many people live with only a HD800, or a SR009, they have more, but they have found their "one headphone".
 

 
Given the additional information Chris gave us, and given my stance on audio, I would almost suggest that Chris SHOULD re-consider those "lowly" headphones again and sampling around.  Chris: I think your main proble is you don't yet know what you actually want (wait a bit there, I thought Chris was among the "unhappy and frustrated guy" like sfwb2cheater in his LCD-2 and "disappointment with what audiophily has become", but he looks fairly happy with he stuff, I think he's just a bit scared to never be able to stop upgrading, after spending years doing just Grado) (I'm just like him, I started with Grado, but I don't have the courage to seek improvement beyond it, like most people who grows out does, by saluting Grado good bye and thank you, and then start searching (the quest) for the higher/highest spheres where Grado aren't considered to be a part of anymore) (but yeah, I did put all my faith in Grado and chose to content myself of it... but I'm an extreme left example (music lover >> audiophile), I love music so much it almost blinds me when A/Bing headphones, it takes like two songs and I already stop hearing the "sound quality", start doing like if I was playing the drums, and hear strictly only the "music" [it's like if my brain is deeply attached to audio images, and won't add or remove elements to the paint depending on the different sounding headphone I'm using], that I would also love even with bad headphones. I compare bad and good headphones together and conclude that they are "different, and both respectable" and that "I might have a preference for one, but I will cycle-listen to the other in a few days", just because that's a ritual for me when owning many times the same object for one purpose. Conclusion: I have no idea how the heck I've been hook on Head-Fi and ended up spending so much on headphones... [but that's not entirely true either as I am a "keeper of things" and I knew I wanted to own one Grado of every color and material]), and as long as you don't know what you seek, you're unlikely to actually find it.   The $1k+ top tier headphones are the cherry on the top.  They're the final refinement for crazy money on top of what you already know you want from the vast sea of pre-existing hi-fi (now known as "mid-fi"?) gear.  I'd suggest that before you go seeking the grail, you first need to know what the grail actually looks (sounds) like.  For that, you need more experience with more cans and more sound signatures.  I wrongly assumed you had that said experience as a cable vendor, but from your own comments, you've been limited in a few directions. And if you're a self-admitted gradophile, I doubt the famously dark (one of the darkest audiophile headphones around, ever) LCD-2s would be your best bet.  Oh, and ditch the NuForce.  It's decent, it's versatile, but once you're to the point of "LCD-2 isn't good enough", you may want to consider that the headphones are not the part that's limiting you 

 
 
 
I will find that "NT;LT", thing, of yours, and read it, hahaha!

 

[reddragon]

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Try: Applications > Utilities > Audio MIDI Setup

 
 
 
is this for mac? i have a pc so what do i do?

 

[Chris_Himself]

HOLY ****
 
Dude IEMcrazy, you damn near broke my scroll wheel on my Razer mouse from how fast I skipped everything you just wrote... dude chill out, take a chill pill, learn to paraphrase.
 
How in the hell are you suggesting that I don't know what I want? I've been on this forum for 5 years to your 4 months and I have like 50 pages of PM's with all my friends here. I consider half the people in this thread my friends and we converse outside of my cable hustlin' and have for months now. I've been through all the mid-fi cans. I never once said that none of them were not good enough for me and I don't sneer at mid-fi. I get higher end stuff because I like the idea of progress in all my hobbies, plus if you understand the headphone economy like I do, an LCD-2 is sort of the masterkey to any headphone you ever want to try. It's the headphone everybody wants, but nobody wants to pay MSRP for.
 
Nah my problem is that I love my Grados, they were a HUGE HUGE HUGE jump in quality going from like IEM's to SR-225. I've been chasing that bump in SQ, and honestly I got that when I recabled the HD580 and sent in my beater pair for their refurb service, where I'm pretty sure they just gave me a brand new HD600 and spraypainted HD-580 LOLZ on the headband. I got the RS-2 which was another jump for me. I have to rubberband my socks on before I have a listening session with them because they keep getting blown off.
 
When I did the Magnum upgrade for a couple Grados... oh boy. It's like as if I never heard good audio beforehand. It's the Grado I'd been listening to for 4 years, except everything is better in every way without just making it "louder". Recabled Grados in silver? Can't comment but I like what I got and I'm keeping it.
 
So I went to HE-500. It's sort of like a Magnum but flatter, sleeker, more polite, silky, sexy, basically Grado is a loud harsh American that is rude and hot headed and thats why we love them. The Magnum is like the Scarlett Johanson of Grados. <possible quote for your signatures boys.
 
But the HE-500 just didn't make me grin ear to ear, even though I was running top of the line shiet.
 
I've owned LCD-2's before, they didn't make me all that happy, they're a little dark, a little light on midbass, etc. I got them again just because they're universally considered better than the HE-500. I'm using them with a Nuforce HDP which is punchier than the entire Schiit stack I was running and it has a decent amount of power. I derno again, I'm not blown away like the day I picked up an SR-225, RS-2, HD-580 (new), or heck, even the Earsonics SM3 IEM's were insanely impressive.
 
anyway thanks for stopping by to show your support guys, I'm only on head-fi these days for the social aspects and to handle my biz.

 

[MattTCG]

I agree with you on the lcd-2. I've got to try it to continue my head-fi journey. It supposedly has "other worldly" bass in in open planar headphone technology. That's like discovery of the peanut butter and jelly combination. Who wouldn't like it? 

 

[wje]

Quote:

When I did the Magnum upgrade for a couple Grados... oh boy. It's like as if I never heard good audio beforehand. It's the Grado I'd been listening to for 4 years, except everything is better in every way without just making it "louder". Recabled Grados in silver? Can't comment but I like what I got and I'm keeping it.
 

 
I've personally heard the Grados - the SR-325i, in wooden cups with silver cables.  I'll have to admit, I'm not a fan of silver cables when paired with Grado headphones.  Not a good mix - kind of like oil 'n water.

 

[devouringone3]

So I understand that for combinations and mixes: peanut butter jelly > water oil.

 

[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

 
 
I definitely did not say that! LOL! 

Sennheiser released the HD700 and made an inferior product, they didn't improve on anything in the slightest in my opinion.  They simply redesigned some things and slapped a lower price on it.  Its still inefficient and hard to find gear that meshes with it.  Demand and you shall receive.  Cower and accept whatever is tossed at you and naturally these companies will be issuing out anything they want...key word is THEY...not YOU.   <3

 
Again, playing devil's advocate against my own statements: HD700 is inferior to what?  I defend my position that HD700 is a disastrous compromise for a disastrous price and is almost offensive by actually being sold to us with a smile.  However, I have enough respect for Sennheiser that I've no doubt they improved some things from HD600/HD650.  Few have heard it yet, and while initial reports were beaming, latter reports are somewhat mixed.  The reality is setting in on them.   But I have no doubt whatsoever that, ignoring price, it is a nice headphone.
 
The stated purpose of HD700 was to fill in the mid-point between HD650 and HD800.   What the rumor mill had believed up until the Nth hour was that that meant a trimmed down HD800.  The downstream movement of angled ring-driver tech creeping toward affordability and eventual mainstream.  For reasons unknown, be it inability to do so in a cost effective way, or fear of eroding HD800's support, they chickened out, and the big announcement at CES2012 was, after endless delays, instead of an all new ring driver in a more affordable package that straddles the line of HD650 and HD800, they proudly presented what is effectively a redesigned and improved HD650 driver voiced to resemble HD800, angle-mounted in DJ series housing, with HD800 visual similarities, and a price of double their also freshly announced increased HD650 pricing.  That is what makes it offensive.  Not the performance which, from the angle mounted driver alone it is obvious has some definite benefits.  The trouble is it should have been the HD675, it should have been $500, maybe $600, and HD650 should have stayed at $350 or $400.  People have been waiting for almost a decade for "the next HD650", but no one expected it would cost twice as much and not feature the newest technology.  If it had a ring driver, I'd have one on pre-order.
 
Where I think the price is a disaster is that for anyone willing to spend $1k on a headphone, $1.5k isn't much of a stretch.   Why would most people buy a badly compromised middle ground when the price is so relatively close to the cutting edge tech?  And for only $200-300 more one can jump ship to Beyer and buy their genuine cutting edge tech.  I'm not sure HD700 is a botched product, but it's a botched price strategy. 
 
Sennheisers greatest asset to date has been the immense value their scale of production offered.  The advice has for many years been that HD650, HD555, whatever is an excellent value for the money.  A well scaling headphone at a reasonable price.   Their sudden attempt to price themselves as a "lifestyle brand" seems arbitrary.  And if they loose their image as a good value, no doubt someone else (HiFiMan?) will move in to fulfill that role.
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few portions, and bolded the more critical parts.  The first statement here is absolutely the false assumption from which my dislike for the classification of "mid-fi" stems.   Hi-Fi and Highest-Fi are not the same thing (didn't know about highest-fi ).   Only the flagships belong in "Highest-Fi", or "Summit-Fi" (for which we have a whole forum. didn't know either)
 
Right, the Summit-Fi board has existed for a long time and has always been the gathering place for those with flagship gear to discuss it.  It is only a recent phenomenon that those with flagship level gear refuse to acknowledge it as an elite level, believe it to be the only qualifier for high fidelity, and therefore that anything that isn't flagship can not be hi-fi.
 
 
lity to the recording or performance.  The term mid-fi is perfectly fine, it is the inaccurate application of the term to nearly the complete range of high fidelity equipment (I'm getting to under your definition of high-fidelity, it's not summit-fi at all, but only a headphone that does his job, serves his purpose, well enough, an nobly?) t
 
Exactly.   It's a much broader category encompassing all equipment that produces a high level of fidelity, not just those with the very highest level of prescision.  Elite tiers have always existed representing the newest items, the highst performance, but never until recently, and only in the headphile world, has anything not in that elite tier been considered something other than hi-fi.  The very phrase "highest" fidelity implies a level over "high fidelity."
 
To grasp how odd an idea that is, think of recordings themselves.  Miles Davis is an audiophile hi-fi standard.  However the microphones and mixing boards he was recorded with are utter rubbish compared to the technology used today.   Is a Miles Davis recording therefor not high fidelity since better microphone tech exists today?  And if it isn't, why are there SACDs of those recordings?  And why do audiphiles with "elite summit-fi" (or "true hi-fi" in their opinions) buy those albums and play it on their gear...such mid-fi recordings as those?  Because it is hi-fi because it achieves a certain level of fidelity.  In that category there is some better and some mainstream performance.  But it is all high fidelity.  Why do audiophiles obsess over phonographs?  The total DR available on a phonograph is inferior to that of CDs, and far inferior to that of SACDs.   Should Phonos not be sold as Hi-fi because technology has surpassed vinyl?  Don't tell that to John Bicht of Versa Labs who is famed for is $9,000 phonograph player that is legendary in stereophile circles.
 
 
g (it already has quite a difficult to "seize" meaning, you're saying it's more general than people think it is?) o
 
Exactly.  It is, and until recently, and only in headphile circles, has always been a category label identifying high performance audio.  Anything performing above a certain level.  For the most part Head-Fi consists primarily of only hi-fi discussion, and little else, except on the portable forums and a few threads on budget headphones. 
 
Returning to the far more expensive stereophile realm for a moment, think of ther terminology in more classic terms.  Think of a brick & mortar Hi-Fi Shop.  Yes, remember physical stores?  Hi-Fi shops have existed sincethe 50s or 60s and still exist today.  Most everything in the store is accepted as hi-fi merchandise.  From the high end AV receivers, to the stereo separates, cables, tower speakers, monoblocks, subs, wall mount speakers, phonos, etc.  It is all hi-fi, it's a hi-fi store.  Now that store is likely to also have a back room where they demo their most elite newest tech.  The sign doesn't say "store full of mid-fi with a few hi-fi items in the back",  it's a "hi-fi store" that has some really high-end hi-fi in the back room.
 
(they never lowered it's price? ah I thought all audio companies did that, to make room for the new stock of HD800, SR009, LCD-3 etc. actually I was even surprised Audeze kept the fairly identical looking LCD-2).
 
Sennheiser's saga is odd.  The HD650 launched at $500.  HD600 was bumped down in price when it launched.  Now the MSRP has always been $500 since the almost 10 year launch.  But as with most things, MSRP is meaningless, and street price has been going for $350 or so for a long time.   Until January 2012.  They decided to enforce MSRP as madatory pricing for all authorized dealers.  Meaning that no one that can sell (and still offer the warranty) the product may sell it for less than $500.  The same price it was 10 years ago.  Not only did the price not go down to make way for the new products, the price went UP to cover for the inflated price of the new products. 
 
So, 12 years ago, top of the line was HD600 at $500.   10 years ago, top of the line was HD650 at $500.  5 years ago, top of the line was HD650 at $350.  2 years ago top of the line was HD800 at $1500, followed by HD650 at $350.  Last year, top of the line was HD800 at $1200 followed by HD650 at $350.  This year top of the line is HD800 at $1500, followed by HD700 at $1000, followed by HD650 at $500. 
 
Notice the distinct lack of Sennheiser's opinion that HD650 is any less valuable than it has ever been, nor concern that it has been rendered as non-hi-fi?

 

 
Quote:

HOLY ****
 
Dude IEMcrazy, you damn near broke my scroll wheel on my Razer mouse from how fast I skipped everything you just wrote... dude chill out, take a chill pill, learn to paraphrase.
 
How in the hell are you suggesting that I don't know what I want? I've been on this forum for 5 years to your 4 months and I have like 50 pages of PM's with all my friends here. I consider half the people in this thread my friends and we converse outside of my cable hustlin' and have for months now. I've been through all the mid-fi cans. I never once said that none of them were not good enough for me and I don't sneer at mid-fi. I get higher end stuff because I like the idea of progress in all my hobbies, plus if you understand the headphone economy like I do, an LCD-2 is sort of the masterkey to any headphone you ever want to try. It's the headphone everybody wants, but nobody wants to pay MSRP for.

 
LOL, apologies on your scroll wheel, and the rant on "mid-fi" was not directed at you at all (and it's not the only thread I've discussed it in, thought it did balloon into the largest), only the recommendation was.  As for thinking you didn't know what you want, I apparently mis-understood your update about having not tried many headphones outside Grados etc.  It didn't sound right, as I said I'd assumed you had more under your belt than that, but I thought that's what you were saying.  And I thought the nature of the thread (gien your comments on you hearing the flaws and moving on) was that you weren't pleased with LCD-2, thus they weren't good enough.  Apologies for the confusion!   So what do you want?

 
For what it's worth I've been lurking the boards for about 6 or 7 years, and previously partcipated at audioholics, had an account here that I'd posted some noob questoins at the time, forgot the password, lost the email account it was tied to, never recreated one until 4 months ago...so despite the appearance of a 4-month audiophile lecturing people on terminology, that isn't quite accurate

 

[abellaw]

Quote:

HOLY ****
 
Dude IEMcrazy, you damn near broke my scroll wheel on my Razer mouse from how fast I skipped everything you just wrote... dude chill out, take a chill pill, learn to paraphrase.
 
How in the hell are you suggesting that I don't know what I want? I've been on this forum for 5 years to your 4 months and I have like 50 pages of PM's with all my friends here. I consider half the people in this thread my friends and we converse outside of my cable hustlin' and have for months now. I've been through all the mid-fi cans. I never once said that none of them were not good enough for me and I don't sneer at mid-fi. I get higher end stuff because I like the idea of progress in all my hobbies, plus if you understand the headphone economy like I do, an LCD-2 is sort of the masterkey to any headphone you ever want to try. It's the headphone everybody wants, but nobody wants to pay MSRP for.
 
Nah my problem is that I love my Grados, they were a HUGE HUGE HUGE jump in quality going from like IEM's to SR-225. I've been chasing that bump in SQ, and honestly I got that when I recabled the HD580 and sent in my beater pair for their refurb service, where I'm pretty sure they just gave me a brand new HD600 and spraypainted HD-580 LOLZ on the headband. I got the RS-2 which was another jump for me. I have to rubberband my socks on before I have a listening session with them because they keep getting blown off.
 
When I did the Magnum upgrade for a couple Grados... oh boy. It's like as if I never heard good audio beforehand. It's the Grado I'd been listening to for 4 years, except everything is better in every way without just making it "louder". Recabled Grados in silver? Can't comment but I like what I got and I'm keeping it.
 
So I went to HE-500. It's sort of like a Magnum but flatter, sleeker, more polite, silky, sexy, basically Grado is a loud harsh American that is rude and hot headed and thats why we love them. The Magnum is like the Scarlett Johanson of Grados. <possible quote for your signatures boys.
 
But the HE-500 just didn't make me grin ear to ear, even though I was running top of the line shiet.
 
I've owned LCD-2's before, they didn't make me all that happy, they're a little dark, a little light on midbass, etc. I got them again just because they're universally considered better than the HE-500. I'm using them with a Nuforce HDP which is punchier than the entire Schiit stack I was running and it has a decent amount of power. I derno again, I'm not blown away like the day I picked up an SR-225, RS-2, HD-580 (new), or heck, even the Earsonics SM3 IEM's were insanely impressive.
 
anyway thanks for stopping by to show your support guys, I'm only on head-fi these days for the social aspects and to handle my biz.

 
I am really enjoying reading this thread. Even though it is taking me away from studying for my finals lol. I really like my Grados sometimes i think i am not an audiophile as from all the headphones i have heard Ultrasones and Grados have the best sound sig. Chris i am not sure if you have heard the flagship grados, but if you have how would you compare them to the Magnums?
 
I am seriously considering get some woodied magnums i just would like to know how they compare to other grados.
 
I concur with what you are saying Chris, the longer i am in this hobby, and the more stuff i listen too the less "Jaw Dropping/Socks Blown off" moments i have.
 
Out of curiosity have you heard ultrasones and if so what did you think of them?

 

[swbf2cheater]

Chris needs my old 325i Woodies.  Amazing cans, one of my all time favorites yet at only $250 or so?  Dang, Chris track them down and pester who ever owns them currently to sell them to you.  If you like Grado and are considering the more expensive Woodie versions, the 325i woodie is for you and the place I would start.  I very much prefer it to the newer Grados and the flagships, not as clear of course but definitely more lively and fun to my ears.  I regret selling that so much, but I needed the $$$ at the time :[  
 

 
As for Sennheiser:  If you know anything about me, you know I am a Sennheiser fanboy for life.  They never fail me, but I wish they would listen to me.  They have yet to produce the type of headphone I prefer or that I want to hear and own.  The HD700 is indeed a great headphone but is the Mini Me to Dr. Evil, Superboy to Superman.  Great, yes.  But not innovative in the slightest and I feel like ( just as you said ) it wasn't made for anyone specifically, it was just tossed into the mix to fill a price gap from the HD650 to the HD800.  Why would I want that?  I want superior, not inferior. Most audiophiles don't really care about price, despite it being a few hundred dollars cheaper, why even bother?  I can get a used HD800 for cheaper than that in some places.  You are going to have to accept that Hi Fi is a premium service.  They are expensive and have specific needs.  If your preferences run parallel to those specific qualities offered by X hi fi rig, then your WOW moment will shadow the Big Bang itself and last for a while.  It took me 15 years to find my golden headphone in the JVC DX1000.  This set is sick beyond reason to my ears, but happens to not reflect anywhere near $1200 of clarity.  In fact, I would call it a total rip off for sonic clarity at that price point, but damned if the set all around doesn't click with my wants and desires.  Its vastly inferior to the HD800, LCD3, Stax models and the HE6 in terms of clarity in the mids and highs, yet it still meshes with me better than all of them combined.   Price matters not, I enjoy the Philips Fidelio L1 more than the hifiman and audeze cans.  Its all about your preferences not the price of the rig you own.  I wish you the very best of luck if you decide to trek into the Audio wilderness in search of something that truly makes you happy.  Its a great experience...expensive, but great.

 

[wje]

Quote:

 
I am really enjoying reading this thread. Even though it is taking me away from studying for my finals lol. I really like my Grados sometimes i think i am not an audiophile as from all the headphones i have heard Ultrasones and Grados have the best sound sig. Chris i am not sure if you have heard the flagship grados, but if you have how would you compare them to the Magnums?
 
I am seriously considering get some woodied magnums i just would like to know how they compare to other grados.
 
I concur with what you are saying Chris, the longer i am in this hobby, and the more stuff i listen too the less "Jaw Dropping/Socks Blown off" moments i have.
 
Out of curiosity have you heard ultrasones and if so what did you think of them?

 
From my experience, and ownership, I was able to conclude that the Magnum v.4 drivers when installed in woody cups provided a slightly better sound signature than the HF-2 headphones by Grado.  I also think, that the woody Magnums were more pleasing to my ears than the Alessandro MS-Pros.  I've never tried the Grado RS-1 or RS-2, so I can't provide you with any comparison points there.  However, for the money, the Magnum drivers are an excellent buy.

 

[abellaw]

Quote:

 
From my experience, and ownership, I was able to conclude that the Magnum v.4 drivers when installed in woody cups provided a slightly better sound signature than the HF-2 headphones by Grado.  I also think, that the woody Magnums were more pleasing to my ears than the Alessandro MS-Pros.  I've never tried the Grado RS-1 or RS-2, so I can't provide you with any comparison points there.  However, for the money, the Magnum drivers are an excellent buy.

 
Thanks for your opinion it really helps I think that i am going to go that direction. I am just not sure how handy i am. Did you do the modifying yourself or did you send it somewhere to get it woodied. I should probably look in the Magnum thread to see how much i am looking at spending all together