What science is and how it works - especially in relation to sound science
Aug 19, 2019 at 3:43 PM Post #76 of 122
[1] Thank you for making my point about the atmosphere here being toxic so abundantly clear.
[2] For what it's worth, I don't approach this hobby with any technological scientific intent because my interest is in the psychological experience/physiological response as part of music therapy.
[3] My own views have not been my motivation for coming here, but a genuine and sincere attempt to share some insights into basic (fundamental) science for those who profess to be interested in science.
[4] Seriously, this is how you chase away people with genuine expertise who could make a value contribution.
[5] But I will take your advice and leave you guys be.

1. We shouldn't need to make it clear, it should be "abundantly clear" even before you enter this sub-forum! If you go to a Sound Science forum, effectively attempt to pervert the science of sound and insult the membership, what sort of "atmosphere" would you expect?

2. But of course, that's not the science of sound, that's the science of the human perception of sound, a very different kettle of fish indeed!

3. But you haven't presented any "basic (fundamental) science" of sound, in fact all you've done is effectively (falsely) stated that the fundamental sound science, isn't science! And, this isn't the "Wyville's shared insights" forum, it's the sound science forum!

4. You haven't demonstrated even the most basic understanding of what sound science is, let alone "genuine expertise"!

5. That wouldn't be my advice. I would advise you gain a basic understanding of what sound science is, it will help with your actual area of expertise (the human perception of sound). The way to do that is to read and ask questions and If you'd taken that approach to start with, instead of making a bunch of false assertions about sound science and us personally, then you'd have received a very different "atmosphere"! Leaving probably is the right move now though, I doubt you could swallow your ego and open yourself to learning the actual basic facts/science.

G
 
Aug 19, 2019 at 3:56 PM Post #77 of 122
One doesn't get very far discussing the science of human perception of sound by ignoring auditory thresholds established through controlled testing, perceptual error and most of all the effect of bias. Those are all established scientific facts, and they are key to understanding why we think we hear what we think we do. They aren't made up poetry, sales pitch or semantic arguments about dictionary definitions. The way to put forward an argument is to present supporting evidence. I would be VERY interested in receiving solid information on the science of human perception if anyone has information on that.
 
Aug 19, 2019 at 4:01 PM Post #78 of 122
http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

I find it a little sad that disagreements about some idea so often degrade into attacks on the poster himself. I won't be hypocritical and pretend that I'm perfect, all the regulars of this forum have seen me trying to e-destroy someone. but anytime it happens(me or anybody else sharing my views), I feel like in a way we've lost the argument.
 
Aug 19, 2019 at 4:07 PM Post #79 of 122
Let me make something clear. You came in here with the intent to stir up crap. You didn't come in here to participate with us, you came in to take pokes at us with a stick. We answered you honestly. You tried to play disingenuous tricks and make believe you were something that you clearly aren't. You're a troll. I'm under no obligation to extend courtesy to you if you act like that. We've seen your kind before. We don't suffer fools gladly, but that doesn't mean that we don't welcome new posters. You're going to get just what you planted here. The longer you remain, everyone's patience with you is going to wear thin. I will talk past you to the lurkers so they know what you are. Others will quote particularly egregious lines out of your long disingenuous diatribes and use them like swords to skewer you. Gregorio will take you apart piece by piece like a watchmaker disassembling a watch. You'll self immolate and try to blame us. The mods will come in and delete everything and thread ban you and you will go away and we will go back to business as usual.

You're done here. Talk to the doctor that told you that you should relax for "medical reasons". I'm sure he'll tell you to let go and move on too.

If you make mistakes and you don't own up to them honestly, you get nowhere even faster.
I agree with your sentiment, but I wish you'd tone down the rhetoric just a little. It detracts from an otherwise valid point.

@Wyville, from my perspective at least, the problem isn't that much of what you said isn't strictly correct, it's that you're arguing from a very high horse, so to speak, and when asked, you have not been able to muster the credibility to back that up. (In fact, for the most part, you've only lost credibility as this thread progressed, as you have a tendency to both restate things rather than responding to questions and dismiss valid criticism.)
 
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Aug 19, 2019 at 4:40 PM Post #80 of 122
[1] I'll just leave it at this: I think if you read my posts carefully, you'll find I don't actually disagree with anything you stated in response.
[1a] I was just keeping things high level so ...

1. Yes, I did realise that to an extent but in the context of the rest of the thread, your points could be seen as an attempt to obfuscate and were certainly open to misinterpretation/misrepresentation.
1a. I think this was the heart of the problem. You weren't "keeping things at a high level" because things weren't at a high level, they were pretty much at the other end of the spectrum! A shame I know, but that's so often the case here when we get audiophiles so adamantly wedded to audiophile myths/claims.

Taken at a high level I don't disagree with what you stated, if this were a forum where everyone had a good basic understanding of science, our exchange (my response) would have been somewhat different. We have to be very careful here about a whole bunch of terms that have a particular connotation in the world of science/engineering but are liable to (and almost constantly are) misunderstanding and abuse by many audiophiles: Theory, evidence, possible, impossible, proof, confidence and certainty being just a few examples. In the context of some of the other posts/posters in this thread, I believe my response was valid/potentially useful, but maybe not to you or others capable and aware that you were trying to raise "things to a high level".

BTW, I haven't made it particularly clear but I'm offering you my apologies.

G
 
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Aug 19, 2019 at 4:59 PM Post #81 of 122
1. Yes, I did realise that to an extent but in the context of the rest of the thread, your points could be seen as an attempt to obfuscate and were certainly open to misinterpretation/misrepresentation.
1a. I think this was the heart of the problem. You weren't "keeping things at a high level" because things weren't at a high level, they were pretty much at the other end of the spectrum! A shame I know, but that's so often the case here when we get audiophiles so adamantly wedded to audiophile myths/claims.
I'm honestly not quite sure what you mean by this. I introduced some specific concepts for clarity, but the actual points I was trying to make were very broad. I tried to avoid getting bogged down in details in order to avoid criticism of the technical aspects of the post.

BTW, I haven't made it particularly clear but I'm offering you my apologies.
Much appreciated and accepted! But not necessary. I did try to make my description of your post (omitted primarily due to length, not because I'm offended by it) a little kinder, though.

I did actually read your post mostly as a technical clarification to anyone else coming along, but the questions included and concerns with word choice threw me off.
 
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Aug 19, 2019 at 5:30 PM Post #82 of 122
from my perspective at least, the problem isn't that much of what you said isn't strictly correct, it's that you're arguing from a very high horse, so to speak, and when asked, you have not been able to muster the credibility to back that up.

In vernacular that comes out as... "If you're gonna talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk."

I don't pretend to be the most conciliatory or diplomatic person in the world. But I do try to be honest and I try to speak about things I've gone to the trouble to research and check out myself. For me, respect is earned. And the way to earn it is to be honest and to speak about things you know. When someone pretends to be something they aren't, and when they demand of others things that they aren't willing to practice themselves, I tend to lose my surface sheen of candy coated sweetness. I'm here to learn from other people, not play games or stroke egos.
 
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Aug 19, 2019 at 8:42 PM Post #84 of 122
https://twister6.com/author/wyville/

Now they are. Happy reading everyone.
I had a quick skim of these reviews. Subjective nonsense and incredibly astonishing work from someone who proclaims he is a "scientist" or has a half understanding of the scientific method.

While these reviews might find a home in a anti-audio science mag like the absolute sound, it would never appear in an AES publication except perhaps as a reference to what science is not.

I wonder if the author even understands the irony.
 
Aug 19, 2019 at 9:20 PM Post #85 of 122
I would be VERY interested in receiving solid information on the science of human perception if anyone has information on that.

I thought this was really cool, and it seems pretty cutting edge:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health...nderstand-language-and-appreciate-tchaikovsky

Here’s the underlying study:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-019-0410-7.epdf?referrer_access_token=szJxF5zIa-3ldO9zXacYbNRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0NcnAJEz4AOvsjWoj0zPNTc5bg7oNmNeyO7-NGl6j63jt_ctil0EY9OU2uiQskNA53HBMzCqf5kkMIUSGtSiz6SIchq_BaUVX9aQsYsbn0YtZh23WncX5CaJ6unhLWRUgC_Z1P2gUf7WaqcWIu_g_rFF4RCRcbNyot6i_Au6d8PZ9JQW3Mfl8kyASBos-ryygep2ptD_JYomHsjRJRQYNw1Fj6iKZ0AviGQvygpTlouTcp-QHrP-wZVSFhZIs6g20VVzncxZGPivcQRetRPz4mGVKH59ejZVt57cBuYxkO0y_VcBWYyToHsp5fjJDlN7ek=&tracking_referrer=www.npr.org

Hopefully right on topic for this thread, both as to substance and as an illustrative example.

Here is another recent development in the science of sound, in the field of physics:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/r2r...ce-thats-audible.779572/page-70#post-15134415

These won’t help anyone with audio in the home, but hello darkness my old friend, I’ve come to talk to you again, it’s the sound of science, and the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls, and tenement halls, and whisper, the sound of science, or something like that.

And hey, as long as I’m rambling, what the hell meter is this in:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sound-science-music-thread-pass-it-on.878435/page-37#post-15116550

TBH, I finally found a definitive answer on the net tonight. One of my two guesses was correct, but I was pretty ticked off I had to look it up to be sure. Be sure to stare at the weird pattern while you are counting beats.
 
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Aug 19, 2019 at 11:47 PM Post #86 of 122
For me sound science inhabits a range of disciplines from engineering to philosophy . I think it unfortunate that the engineering end seems to claim sole ownership .

Fair enough. In the post directly above you will find links and references to the modern study of sound in the sciences, one to a very recent development in neuroscience and one to a very recent development in physics, if I understand correctly. It won’t help you with your home stereo or headphones but yes, it’s interesting stuff, IMHO.

Unfortunately we don’t have access to fMRI machines or quantum microphones, so we couldn’t try these things at home, so to speak, even if some very few of us knew how.

In my view, we turn to the artists and engineers for music, recording, and audio because the underlying science as developed appears to be much more than sufficient for those purposes. So we have the artists and engineers create, develop, invent, problem-solve, innovate, etc.

Oh! I just thought of an application of music (art?) in the sciences (?) and artificial intelligence. . .hold on. . . .

https://business.blogthinkbig.com/h...lysis-of-the-musical-ai-by-aiva-technologies/

https://towardsdatascience.com/artificial-intelligence-and-music-what-to-expect-f5125cfc934f

Again, it’s not going to help you with your home audio, but it’s sound science, i think?

I’m no expert, and I am among the very least proficient in engineering or the sciences here. I just read a lot, and the stuff percolates.
 
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Aug 20, 2019 at 2:45 AM Post #87 of 122
I thought this was really cool, and it seems pretty cutting edge

My parents had a dog that could recognize theme songs in shows. At the end of Law and Order, there was a logo with a wolf howl. And my parent's dog would start barking as soon as the end titles started, long before the logo with the wolf came up. I had a hard time believing it until I saw it with my own eyes.
 
Aug 21, 2019 at 3:20 AM Post #88 of 122
[1] I thought this was really cool, and it seems pretty cutting edge: https://www.npr.org/sections/health...nderstand-language-and-appreciate-tchaikovsky
[2] Here is another recent development in the science of sound, in the field of physics: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/r2r...ce-thats-audible.779572/page-70#post-15134415

1. Interesting that those Monkeys don't even appear to have the necessary "hardware". The BBC did a number of experiments in the 1950s/60s along somewhat similar lines, although investigating the "software" side of things in humans. They took various music recordings (some classical, such as Bach, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, etc., and some popular music hits) to various places in India, other Asian countries, even some remote tribes in Africa and played them to people who had never heard western music before. The results were very interesting, broadly: While they could easily differentiate the recordings from other sounds/noise (IE. Unlike the tested monkeys, they had the "hardware"), they couldn't identify what it was, they didn't recognise it as music, it was just a different (but unidentifiable) sort of noise, IE. They didn't have the "software"! However, the ability to identify the noise/sound as music increased with some of the popular music recordings. After asking the subjects questions, the BBC staff concluded that the popular music was more readily recognisable because of the rhythmic percussion (drumkit for example) and it's vague similarity with local music. The vast majority of ethnic/traditional music employs some form of rhythmic drums/percussion, sometimes exclusively. The music which was most difficult to recognise was the music less reliant on rhythmic percussion and more reliant on harmony (chords and chord progressions), EG. Most classical music. Along with other evidence, the conclusion is that while we all have the hardware to detect harmony, we don't have the software to identify it as music, it's a learned response, or to continue with the vernacular of the article, we self-develop the software. I'm care not to say that we aren't born with the software, because there's quite a bit a evidence to suggest this learning process does (or can) begin while we're still in the womb. Incidentally, it's virtually impossible to repeat those BBC experiments today. Due to globalisation there are very few people in the world (possibly none at all) who have never been exposed to western music.

2. I maybe wrong (pretty high probability!) but I'm not sure that is a development in the science of sound. It depends on how we define "sound". In classical science, sound is defined as a pressure wave travelling through a medium, which for our practical purposes is air. In other words, a sound-wave is countless trillions of atoms/molecules (of Nitrogen, Oxygen, Carbon dioxide, etc.) that are forced to move up and down in sequence by the force of pressure. If you have two sub-atomic particles (in this case electrons) how is it possible for them to propagate a sound-wave? What medium is there between the two electrons, even a single atom of Nitrogen is absolutely massive compared to an electron and you're going to need a whole bunch of atoms and molecules to propagate a sound-wave? From my understanding (which at this level is very limited!) what they're actually talking about is "vibrational energy", which isn't sound/sound-waves per se, but presumably have the potential to be, if you had enough of them, with enough energy to propagate a sound wave.

[1]I'm honestly not quite sure what you mean by this. I introduced some specific concepts for clarity, but the actual points I was trying to make were very broad. I tried to avoid getting bogged down in details in order to avoid criticism of the technical aspects of the post.
[1a] I did actually read your post mostly as a technical clarification to anyone else coming along, but the questions included and concerns with word choice threw me off.

1. Unfortunately though, the example you used was one already argued over at the beginning of the thread and was another example of the misunderstanding/misuse of a term (in that case, "resolution"), which was particularly ironic as the poster went to the trouble of saying it was important to accurately define the term, and then incorrectly defined it!

1a. It's entirely possible that I've become over-sensitive here over the years, due to the almost constant word/term abuse. For example, if I were to correctly/scientifically state that it would be incredibly unlikely that some effect could be audible, it's very probable that some audiophile will then reason along the lines of: "Incredibly unlikely doesn't mean impossible and what maybe "incredibly unlikely" for an average consumer is much more likely for me, with my much better gear and experience identifying fine details. Coupled with the fact that I heard an audible difference, there obviously IS an audible difference and what's more, as the science doesn't disagree with me, science is on my side! If members of this subforum then tell me there is no audible difference, they are obviously wrong because I know what I heard (and they can't know what I heard) and what's more, they're disagreeing with the science and therefore not being scientific!". The reality of course is that this audiophile is the one not being scientific, they do not understand the terms "incredibly/extremely unlikely" and "impossible" as used in science. In common speech we often use the word "impossible" but in science we rarely use it, because in science we have to be much more precise and as science cannot prove a negative, instead of the word "impossible" we would typically say "incredibly unlikely" or "extremely unlikely". The above audiophile reasoning is therefore wrong, the scientific use of "incredibly unlikely" translated into common speech DOES typically mean "Impossible"! "Impossible in any practical/real world, foreseeable circumstance" and an audiophile with audiophile gear IS a real world, foreseeable circumstance! BTW, I know you know this but it's for the benefit of others.

G
 
Aug 21, 2019 at 3:46 AM Post #89 of 122
if I were to correctly/scientifically state that it would be incredibly unlikely that some effect could be audible...

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Aug 24, 2019 at 12:05 AM Post #90 of 122
http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

I find it a little sad that disagreements about some idea so often degrade into attacks on the poster himself. I won't be hypocritical and pretend that I'm perfect, all the regulars of this forum have seen me trying to e-destroy someone. but anytime it happens(me or anybody else sharing my views), I feel like in a way we've lost the argument.

While I can definitely understand that perspective, I think it is disingenuous and dishonest to profess having no ulterior motive, just to be proven otherwise after. He would not have come anywhere close to being treated this way if he approached the forum with respect and did not attempt to deconstruct science for his own profitable motive.

I find it completely disgusting how the audiophile world is infested with anti-science snake oilers. The way they subterfuge science from the ground up is not unlike how cults brainwash the fundamental connection to reality of the victims. While I was never quite convinced by the anti-science attempt, if it wasn't for experienced posters here, I would have been out of arguments, and be left with a lingering doubt about my understanding of audio science. THAT was the danger and absolutely atrocious what was attempted here. Like I said in the FH7 thread, it sounded like FUD to me and indeed it was exactly as I thought.

That sounds like FUD to me.

I am especially grateful for the experienced posters here that have repeatedly set the discussion straight and bring objectivity and logical reasoning to light. He discredited himself when he lied about his motives of deconstructing science for profit instead of bringing a legitimate point of discussion to the table. I'd argue that the spite he received was of his own making.

----------

While some of you may criticize bigshot's snarky responses, I feel equally frustrated and offended and can totally accept his response. I myself have been tricked into a LGAT (large group awareness training) brainwashing session before and for the first time in my life have wished someone dead.
 
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