[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatman711 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have never heard one before and was just curious as to why the R10s were so awesome. Was it the driver that it used or was it how the chambers were constructed? There has to be a reason why these babies deserve a 4k price point.

"Deserve" clearly is a loaded word to some in this thread. But the fact of the matter is that the R10 commands the prices it does.

obobskivich, you note on several occasions--correctly--that the R10's price reflects supply and demand. But then you introduce your own value judgment that there is no way they can be worth it. Your conclusion does not follow. The market has spoken, you just don't like what it has to say. Further, it is a pretty savvy market, so I think the current price is a reliable indicator of the value of the R10. Is the price steep? Of course, it's outrageous in many ways. Is it worth it? Yes, because that is the price it commands. Is it worth it to you? Apparently not, and if more and more people start feeling this way, the price may go down.

On a related note, obobskivich, what did you think of the R10 when you listened to it?

Personally, I think it's a great headphone, but I have not spent enough time with it to call it the best I've ever heard. I also think the R10 often outshines other phones under meet conditions because it's a closed phone, giving it a bit of a comparative advantage.

Why are these things priced so high? Because we, collectively, agree with Sony. For these purposes, I consider us sophisticated investors, and based on the information available to us, we have supported the initial price and caused it to rise. This point assumes that we are not being misled by Sony, but this behavior is not uncommon with respect to a scarce and discontinued flagship product.

All that said, it would be wonderful to see Sony's P&L with respect to the R10. However, I suspect that will not be forthcoming.

 

[krmathis]

The following taken into consideration, then its understandable that the MDR-R10 have the current going price.
If it 'deserve' the price tag is a different story.
* Long out of production.
* Relative low production numbers.
* Demand higher than supply.
* Retail price around $4,000.
* Highly regarded.
* Well crafted and durable (based on pictures and written words).

More or less the same reason why the Sennheiser HE90, Stax SR-Omega and Sony Qualia 010 have a high going price.
If you want one and can afford it, then buy one. If not, then move on...

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif I also think the R10 often outshines other phones under meet conditions because it's a closed phone, giving it a bit of a comparative advantage.

Although I completely agree with the rest of your post, I have found the opposite regarding meets to be true. Yes, it's a closed, or semi-closed, headphone, but it's still not a great meet headphone. In meets, you're lucky if you get to listen to a song or two in a row. There are usually folks standing around talking nearby, and the whole atmosphere is slightly distracting at best. The R10s may impress upon first listen, but where they really shine is in how they reveal nuances and subtleties of depth and tone, and outstanding detail without being bright or pushy. Even when I'm at home, it takes me a good five to ten minutes of being "inside" a piece of music before I realize how amazing these headphones are. Although I've enjoyed R10s at meets, I have never experienced them well at one.

 

[Uncle Erik]

I think part of the controversy is that the R10 has transitioned from audio gear to collector's item. That does funny things to prices. For me, it also partially ruins the experience of owning one. The HP-2 and K-1000 don't get as much head time as they deserve, mostly because I'm conscious of their value and the difficulty/impossibility of having them repaired. If something goes wrong, they'd lose a huge amount of value. So they're stuck away, only coming out on special occasions and when I can devote several hours to listening. Which is also why I have no plans to purchase the R10, or anything else that's rare and difficult or impossible to repair. That's not a knock against those headphones - they sound amazing - but I've always preferred to use something rather than to be its conservator. (I should add that I have no plans to sell anything.)

And while some headphones may now be collector's items, I think it's very unfortunate that some manufacturers are trying to turn new models into collectibles - that is, something manufactured to collect. Collectibles have, in my opinion, killed some great hobbies. Look at baseball cards. There are so many special editions, etc. that the market is flooded and nothing is particularly special any longer. Same with fountain pens. I've collected those for years, but manufacturers have moved away from building writers and into making commemorative and special editions. You can easily find a pen with a bit of the Titanic's hull set into the top for $4,000, however, it is much more difficult to find an excellent daily writer for $300. That's why I've shifted my collecting towards vintage and antique pens - ones that were designed for writing, not with a clip shaped like Abraham Lincoln.

Because people are willing to pay exorbitant prices for some headphones (though some may be worth it) we might be inflicted with $1,500-$2,000 "special editions" and other such nonsense every couple of years. Though new products are exciting, this behavior could strangle this hobby.

 

[haloxt]

If we're talking about the value of the R-10, I think it is really temporary if you consider that Sony may decide to make a successor to the R-10 then there will be much less demand for the R-10 while the collectability value may keep it in the $2500 range if I had to make a wild guess. Statement headphones is a place where patent laws make themselves painfully felt, all these headphone companies own different technologies which prevents a statement headphone from actually utilizing the latest in technology as all of them advertise falsely because the latest in technology is exclusively owned. I think there should be a MIR international space station equivalent for headphones, I think it's a crime not all statement headphones have diaphragms made out of the dehydrated wastematter of a bacteria.

 

[Elephas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Because people are willing to pay exorbitant prices for some headphones (though some may be worth it) we might be inflicted with $1,500-$2,000 "special editions" and other such nonsense every couple of years. Though new products are exciting, this behavior could strangle this hobby.

Strangle this hobby? I don't think so.

How does more $1500-$2000 headphone models or special limited editions available on the market "strangle this hobby?"

The HD800, Edition 8 and PS-1000 are three new headphones in this price range. How does the availability of these new models hurt the hobby?

I think a general lack of interest in headphones and music by consumers is the main thing that would hurt the hobby. Everything else has comparatively minimal impact, much less the availability of low volume "special edition" or niche headphones, whatever their list and market prices are.

 

[nikongod]

Im also curious if obs has actually heard the R10 or if he is simply telling a bunch of people who own them that they are expensive.
Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd2884 /img/forum/go_quote.gif How ironic, I put you on my ignore list yesturday also!

totally wrong. Duggeh is one of the coolest people on these forums.

Its an interesting problem having someone on ignore. Quite often what happens is that you try to say the same thing as them, and then come off as a repeating idiot. well, I doubt you would say the same thing as duggeh because as I said he is cool and you are you. at least your not a repeater

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can easily find a pen with a bit of the Titanic's hull set into the top for $4,000, however, it is much more difficult to find an excellent daily writer for $300.

Well said, but I dont think that the R10 was designed to be a limited edition. It was designed to be a total statement piece, but the demand simply wasnt there.

There are some other "limited edition" headphones that I listen to and say "thank goodness there are only 500 of these pieces of crap."
Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif If we're talking about the value of the R-10, I think it is really temporary if you consider that Sony may decide to make a successor to the R-10 then there will be much less demand for the R-10 while the collectability value may keep it in the $2500 range if I had to make a wild guess.

EEEH, there have been enough attempts since the R10 to make other statement phones, and many exceptional headphones have been made in this time.

The thing really is though: nothing but the R10 sounds like the R10. IE: if you want something that sounds like this, your only option is the genuine article. There are plenty of other headphones that sound great, just not like this.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif lets review: because I'm posting that a US $5000 pair of headphones is overpriced in my opinion, I'm an "uneducated moron with a christ complex in serious need of mental help"

This should have been an interesting topic, but after reading the thread that could have been a stimulating discussion, I think you've summed it up nicely.

Quote:

you do realize that uh, in any other circle, I'd be the sane one? or is this concept entirely elusive?

So why are you here instead of there? This does seem to demonstrate the point that you made above.

To everyone else: Sorry about the ad hominem, but it's posters like this and mbd2884 who are driving the signal/noise ratio at Head-Fi into an infinitely shrinking decline.

haloxt: The successor to the R10 was the Qualia 010, which sold at $2700 in the US. It does a lot of things better than the R10, but was not built to withstand daily use unless handled with extreme care, and was discontinued within a year. Most find the R10 to be more musically satisfying.

To understand some of why this was, you need to look at the design goals of the headphones. Most headphones are designed to be neutral transducers, with varying degrees of success. The R10 is somewhat unique in that it was never intended to be neutral. It's worth reading the manual just to understand this. It was designed to be part of the musical experience, not to simply get out of the way. Unlike almost any other Sony product, the R10 was hand-assembled. Very few companies have ever attempted this kind of goal, or produced a statement product in this manner.

Uncle Erik, the production of new high-end headphones is a sign that the hobby still has life in it, which is something I've questioned previously. I have a different idea of collectables than most, since I use my R10's daily. Then again, going to another branch of collectables, my daily writers include Chilton Wingflows and Waterman Patricians. Just because something can be collected does not mean that it cannot be used. The problem with modern fountain pens is that there is a shrinking market. Fewer people use pens for daily writing, and fewer still use fountain pens. The demographic is aging rapidly, and the computer has ended many of the primary uses for pens. The limited editions and special issues coming out at high prices are the last gasp of a dying industry. To that end, I'll stick with my vintage pens, which are from times when even the "collectables" were made primarily for use, not display. There have been very few improvements in the technology of the fountain pen in the last fifty years, IMO, so limited editions in pens focus on aesthetics...wrong focus. Several companies have experienced "devolution" as their pens become prettier, but useless writers.

There is no analogy with headphones, however. The headphone market is increasing, not drying up. The limited editions and high-end releases are simply the tip of the iceberg in headphones, and make up a fraction of the market (unlike pens). However, a company's high-end headphone, if a success, will add cachet to the brand, which will increase mass-market sales. It also forces companies to improve existing technologies, and develop new ones. It was the period where no new headphones were coming out at the high end that I felt the industry was in trouble. It seemed that nobody was attempting to improve the product, which is strange behavior in a growing market. It looked like companies were satisfied with mass-market mediocrity. That would have killed off high-end headphone listening over time.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd2884 /img/forum/go_quote.gif My ignore list grew with another addition.

Not sure what was said there that make you react like that, another neurotic in headfi??? Of if that there is some people that can't handle the truth??? What seems to be the case, but either way is fine with me. BTW, I have four guys in my ignore list, two of them have been banned, the other two I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only who ignores them, so I was not so wrong.

Sorry but I could not give you any valid reason that will justify the price of the R-10, nor of any other heapdhone expensive, we pay what we feel is right and could afford and period. Honestly I have not been able to find one valid reason myself, given my budget, but trust me that if I had the extra cash and the opportunity I will do it, unfortunatelly for me I can't afford it and probably I'm just trying to find excuses not to get them....

 

[haloxt]

Ultrasone is my favorite headphone company, but I think their pretty early release of the Edition 8 is like a b*tchslap to all the people who got Edition 9, and the Edition 9 was a b*tchslap to all who got Edition 7. If I had the Edition 7 or 9 and found out about the Edition 8 I would be quite disillusioned especially when I found out it took them this long to use OFC cable. For Ultrasone, statement headphones are their greatest source of revenue, so their best financial course of action would be to keep releasing new Editions every few years whenever they make new progresses in headphone design, maybe the next one of which will have penguin skin. Quite frankly I don't think Ultrasone has the know-how to make the best dynamic headphone that won't benefit from any modding, or won't be dethroned after 2-3 years of R&D. On the other hand all these statement headphones are pushing companies to do a lot more R&D.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif EEEH, there have been enough attempts since the R10 to make other statement phones, and many exceptional headphones have been made in this time. The thing really is though: nothing but the R10 sounds like the R10. IE: if you want something that sounds like this, your only option is the genuine article. There are plenty of other headphones that sound great, just not like this.

I mean specifically when SONY decides to make a successor

.

Hirsch, I'm sure Sony could replicate the sound-signature of the R10 if they thought it'd be desirable over completely neutral in a new statement headphone. But of course it may never happen, and the R10 could cost millions one day

. I also have a few fountain pens, from the dead fountain pen company Reform.

edit: another thing that I just remembered, the Edition 8 webpage says "... Only those manufacturers that have proven their high standards of quality, by working with the most exclusive and luxurious automotive and clothing brands..." so I wonder if Ultrasone wants people to buy their headphones the same way people waste their money on cars and clothes :[.

 

[Duggeh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif Duggeh is one of the coolest people on these forums.

Praise from Caesar.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elephas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Strangle this hobby? I don't think so. How does more $1500-$2000 headphone models or special limited editions available on the market "strangle this hobby?" The HD800, Edition 8 and PS-1000 are three new headphones in this price range. How does the availability of these new models hurt the hobby? I think a general lack of interest in headphones and music by consumers is the main thing that would hurt the hobby. Everything else has comparatively minimal impact, much less the availability of low volume "special edition" or niche headphones, whatever their list and market prices are.

Maybe not now, but it could happen down the road. What if manufacturers figure out that they can sell commemorative, special and limited editions for $1,500 to $2,000 each, while deliberately making the rest of their lines somewhat crappy/low end? What if your choices were either the PS-1000 or the SR-125? Make no mistake, manufacturers are businesses and out to maximize profits. If they special order 500 bubinga boxes, put an extra aluminum ring around the driver and a magical cord, then get $1,200 of profit instead of $300, then that's likely what they're going to do.

If you've ever had to deal with a funeral home, there's a reason they first take you to the cardboard coffin. Which is like $300 or something. They sneer at it and imply that it is only for those of low means and/or those disposing of an unloved relative. Next up, the "least" expensive one is about $2,000. Which, apparently, is a much, much better way to express how much you loved the deceased.

And if your choices are limited between something inexpensive and lousy and something super expensive, that's when people begin to lose interest. Manufacturers seem to be starting to overshoot the market. The HD-800 and PS-1000 are priced squarely into high-end used speaker territory. Which is why I bought speakers instead of either. For one, I don't need to make any excuses for buying Quads, moreover, they were less than half the price of the HD-800.

But am I interested in the HD-800 and the PS-1000? Absolutely. If either had been priced reasonably I would have bought them.

That is how you eventually kill interest in a hobby.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well said, but I dont think that the R10 was designed to be a limited edition. It was designed to be a total statement piece, but the demand simply wasnt there. There are some other "limited edition" headphones that I listen to and say "thank goodness there are only 500 of these pieces of crap."

You're right, which is why I was trying to make a distinction between collector's items and collectibles. A collector's item is something that was made in small quantities (or only small quantities are left) that is no longer available and later experiences high demand, driving prices up.

A collectible is something designed to have artificially low production numbers which is meant to capture the same market as a genuine collector's item.

As I said above, I worry that we're going to have an endless parade of collectibles, all artificially priced way above their actual value.

 

[smeggy]

think yourself lucky he got that in... me and some friends are just heading out to the forum...

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ultrasone is my favorite headphone company, but I think their pretty early release of the Edition 8 is like a b*tchslap to all the people who got Edition 9, and the Edition 9 was a b*tchslap to all who got Edition 7. If I had the Edition 7 or 9 and found out about the Edition 8 I would be quite disillusioned especially when I found out it took them this long to use OFC cable. For Ultrasone, statement headphones are their greatest source of revenue, so their best financial course of action would be to keep releasing new Editions every few years whenever they make new progresses in headphone design, maybe the next one of which will have penguin skin. Quite frankly I don't think Ultrasone has the know-how to make the best dynamic headphone that won't benefit from any modding, or won't be dethroned after 2-3 years of R&D. On the other hand all these statement headphones are pushing companies to do a lot more R&D.

Who said that thy do not use OFC before? The prior cable was done by Oehlbach cable company, designed by them I really doubt that any cable manufacturer will not use OFC nowadays, if you go to their website you will see that all Oehlbach cables are made of OFC...

I know a couple of guys in Ultrasone, and currently the Edition is my hepadhone of choice, and I have crossed emails with Florian and other guys behind the Ultrsone brand in the past, and I'm pretty sure that at least Florian knows very well, the know how to create at least a very nice sounding, if not an ultimate sounding headphone (at least for his personal taste)...IMO they had, and they did, with the Editions, not the best out there, but for me one of the best, comforwise they still need to work around, and of course if they decided to.
The main problem is, first the preference, as you see he created the Edition 7/9, and now 8, what maybe for him are all the best in their moment, but for sure it will never be the cup of tea for everybody, the same way the R-10 was not, and so on, in other words, what a designer prefer, is not a universal truth that will be universaly accepted by all of us, we all hear differently, have different education, hear different types of music, and that is the main reason we have the variety we have nowdays, and second a company that decide to go that way, have to think in finding others ways to survive, specially if they only focus in heapdhones, as Ultrasone does, becasue believe it or not, the heapdhone market is not big enough, to justify R&D and that scale, or at that expense...just look around how many have R-10, Editions, PS-1, L3000, etc...

 

[haloxt]

Hmm I apologize, I just assumed this was their first headphones with OFC because it is the first time they advertised it as such. I love Ultrasone and only use their headphones but they really need to work on their product descriptions and websites. I also really would've liked it if they made the same assurance on their own website that Ultrasone dealers have that the Edition 8 isn't automatically superior. Dealers might say that coupled with "there's only a few 9's left" to try to sell their last Edition 9's, but if Ultrasone's website makes the Edition 8 appear superior to the Edition 9 it's really a pooper for people with the Edition 9.

Quote:

Edition9 is sold out. These very successful headphones inspired Ultrasone to create a new Edition headphone with latest progression in technologies, design and materials. We want to thank our fans and are proud to offer the new Edition 8 headphones.

Then about my comment that I don't think Ultrasone has the knowhow to make the ultimate headphones, in the NAMM winter 2008 video where Michael Willberg showcased a modded Pro 900, he said the difference balanced cables (they also did dual-entry, wonder if they bypassed the diodeboard) for the Pro 900 was beyond what him or anyone else could've imagined. That means the unbalanced Edition 8 um... isn't the ultimate.