What is the special sauce behind the Chord Hugo?
Sep 28, 2014 at 11:25 AM Post #106 of 138
I think there is a correlation between expensive gear and ego.  
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  Also a correlation between expensive and expection bias.  I can list quite alot of correlations too!
 
Have you hear people ask, have you listened to this $5k amp or dac?  But, have you listened to this?  Sound familiar?
 
Sep 28, 2014 at 12:34 PM Post #107 of 138
the behavior of most components is impacted and very often compensated by the components just before and after it. a delta sigma DAC is the perfect example of how many individually "defective" components(as in unable to output a perfect theoretical response, and possibly worst than another component), end up being able to send to the amp a perfectly pure signal from 0 down to an easy -80db or lower on lots of very cheap models. and "upgrading" a few parts will most likely give a worst overall output. because the "defects" where accounted for in the design.
 
not to say that component quality doesn't matter, just saying that it's certainly not the mean to an end.
 
anyway, "our" problem with the hugo is clearly the price that we can't seem to justify. you can, or you're fortunate
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enough not to care about money, good for you mate. 
I usually like to see the product making the price, not the price trying to make the product. I had the same kind of problem with all the beta versions of A&K's DAPs. I don't mind a luxe tag, luxe price, but I do ask for measurements and results to back up the marketing noises. else luxe is all it is.
I've read a few interesting things coming from the designer, but I have yet to see how it impacts the actual output. I would likely be more convinced by a few measurements from usual loads, than by the "good stuff is expensive" argument.
 
 
 
  A headphone amp is an amp. I can't think of any solid state amp or DAC or digital player of any kind for any home audio application that has an audible noise floor at normal listening levels. Home audio moved past noise floors at -40dB when LP records were retired.
 
I just looked up the published specs on the manufacturer's page. The dynamic range spec is 120dB. That is a noise floor lower than any CD. +120dB is the threshold of pain and it's well beyond the point of hearing damage for continuous exposure. Not only that, it is very difficult to measure noise floors lower than -120dB without very specialized equipment.
 
The person reporting that must have a defective unit, or it is a significant impedance mismatch with his IEMs.


Designing a cheap DAC and headphone amplifier able to drive something like an HD800 completely transparently would be relatively trivial. Multi driver IEMs however, is a slightly different beast.
Even an iPod runs into some issues trying to drive those.

In fact I'd be terribly grateful if someone could point me in the direction of a cheap, compact and completely transparent DAC/amp I could just plug into my mac. The headphone out is a bit too noisy for my CIEMs.

flat and noiseless on IEMs, I found it with the leckerton UHA760(posted a long boring review, don't read it, but know that it says "zero audible hiss" in it ^_^). 
it seems like the 6S MKII also does the job for a nicer price but I didn't try it so I can't say. they're not 100% free of cellphone impulses, but I don't know of a lot of DAC/AMPs who totally are shielded. just don't stick your phone at 15cm of it and it's a non problem. (I wonder how the hugo does with that?)
I hate noise on sensitive IEMs, the O2 is pretty much hiss free, but the volume control is less than optimal for IEM use.
anyway there are probably other options and in a real desktop configuration(the leckerton isn't really made for fullsize headphones and doesn't pack the power of an O2), but that's the only one I was lucky to fell uppon.
 
oh the X3 didn't hiss at all and worked as a DAC/amp. but I use my joker on the transparent part of your request. ^_^
 
Sep 28, 2014 at 1:04 PM Post #108 of 138
  Check out Tyll's measurements.  http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AllAmpsJuly2013.pdf  For some reason, high distortion at low voltage.  Performance wise Pico Power looked to be the best.


I didn't see high distortion there. I see totally inaudible levels. Am I reading it wrong?
 
Sep 28, 2014 at 1:07 PM Post #109 of 138
  Designing a cheap DAC and headphone amplifier able to drive something like an HD800 completely transparently would be relatively trivial. Multi driver IEMs however, is a slightly different beast.
Even an iPod runs into some issues trying to drive those.

 
But that isn't a problem with the noise floor. That is an impedance problem. It isn't the amp's fault. You're just using IEMs that weren't intended to be used with that particular amp.
 
Sep 28, 2014 at 1:12 PM Post #110 of 138
 
I didn't see high distortion there. I see totally inaudible levels. Am I reading it wrong?

Was commenting about Alpen's THD%+Noise vs Output Vrms plot of various impedance headphones comparatively to other amps.  Performance wise it's distortion's levels start out much higher at low Vrms output comparatively to other amps measured. Also the IMD and harmonic plots show much higher distortions.  Audibly is a different matter.
 
Sep 28, 2014 at 1:15 PM Post #111 of 138
Does anything other than audibility matter? Does the shape of the line below the threshold of audibility make a difference? Those wiggly lines don't mean anything at all except in the context of the numbers running up the side.
 
Sep 28, 2014 at 2:13 PM Post #112 of 138
  I hate noise on sensitive IEMs, the O2 is pretty much hiss free, but the volume control is less than optimal for IEM use.
anyway there are probably other options and in a real desktop configuration(the leckerton isn't really made for fullsize headphones and doesn't pack the power of an O2), but that's the only one I was lucky to fell uppon.

Have you tried putting resistors between the amp and IEMs? You might have to experiment with different ohms of resistance to find the best balance of sound quality and resistance, but I've heard of people having success with that.
 
 
  Does anything other than audibility matter? Does the shape of the line below the threshold of audibility make a difference? Those wiggly lines don't mean anything at all except in the context of the numbers running up the side.

Unless I missed it, we never found out the listening level used by the person who experienced noise on the Hugo. If it was at max volume, a noise floor might be barely evident, but woe to the man who accidentally hits the play button at that volume. 
 
Sep 28, 2014 at 2:49 PM Post #113 of 138
  Does anything other than audibility matter? Does the shape of the line below the threshold of audibility make a difference? Those wiggly lines don't mean anything at all except in the context of the numbers running up the side.

 
Are we looking at the same graphs?
What I'm seeing is performance on par with a latter day Walkman.
 

 
Keep in mind that .1Vrms can be a hellofalot for some IEMs. My particular model needs less than .005Vrms to reach 90dB
 

Here's the summary of Alpen:
 

 
 
And its cousin Mount Blanc for comparison:
 

 
Looking in particular at the IMD numbers, it looks more like a defective unit, or a tube amp, rather than just poor performance.
 
Sep 28, 2014 at 4:19 PM Post #114 of 138
 
  I hate noise on sensitive IEMs, the O2 is pretty much hiss free, but the volume control is less than optimal for IEM use.
anyway there are probably other options and in a real desktop configuration(the leckerton isn't really made for fullsize headphones and doesn't pack the power of an O2), but that's the only one I was lucky to fell uppon.

Have you tried putting resistors between the amp and IEMs? You might have to experiment with different ohms of resistance to find the best balance of sound quality and resistance, but I've heard of people having success with that.
 

the problem is that most of those ultra sensitive IEMs are multi BA drivers and get massive signature changes from resistors. I do have a few resistor adapters(3,5,30,100ohm) and only my IE80 can benefits from them without noticeable change in signature. every other IEMs would then need extra EQ to compensate the signature changes. not really practical in my case as I use mostly DAPs with crappy EQ functions. on the computer it would need some time to EQ but it's not impossible.
I'm not saying to never do it, but it might be a very good idea to find an impedance response curve of the IEM to know where one is going, before betting on resistors.
 
obviously I'm the idiot for buying low impedance, high sensitivity multi BA IEMs, but my favorite IEMs happen to be mostly that. :'( 
 
Sep 28, 2014 at 4:50 PM Post #115 of 138
I'm just happy that my Clip+ works ok with my IEMs. Some, but not obtrusive, hiss during quiet passages.
There's no way I'll forgo CIEMs just because it makes hunting for the right equipment a bit harder.
A more convenient way to get your daily fix of that sweet, sweet music, than to have a couple of those oddly shaped acrylic marbles on your person at all time, it just doesn't exist.
 
Sep 28, 2014 at 5:29 PM Post #116 of 138
  Are we looking at the same graphs?
What I'm seeing is performance on par with a latter day Walkman.

 
Maybe you can help me put it in context. Say you have a set of Sennheiser HD600s and you play music at normal listening volumes (loud and quiet)... What would be the distortion rating be? Would the THD be over 1%, which is the threshold of audibility?
 
Sep 28, 2014 at 7:04 PM Post #117 of 138
   
Maybe you can help me put it in context. Say you have a set of Sennheiser HD600s and you play music at normal listening volumes (loud and quiet)... What would be the distortion rating be? Would the THD be over 1%, which is the threshold of audibility?

 
I have a set of HD25-1 that I use on occasion, but other than that it's exclusively IEMs; 124dB/mW sensitivity and 46Ω nominal impedance, but likely to vary a great deal.
Looking at that graph I'd expect to have around 1% distortion, of which a sizeable proportion would be IMD. It might not be audible, but I'd rather not spend my money on that off-chance.

I agree that things would look rather different if I were to use some more regular headphones, but these portable devices are ostensibly designed with IEMs in mind, and many do just fine at that, so I don't think I place unreasonable demands.
 
Sep 29, 2014 at 2:34 AM Post #118 of 138
I don't care about what I don't hear. In that case, I would choose based on features and price, not specs.
 
Oct 7, 2014 at 5:25 AM Post #119 of 138
In reference to the discussion on the previous page about schiit amps:
In the FAQ for the Modi Schiit say this:
 
'If this thing is so great, why would I step up to Bifrost or Gungnir?
Because you need multiple inputs, or because you want a fully discrete gain stage, or you need balanced outputs. Or upgradability. Magni isn’t upgradable. Which shouldn’t be a surprise, since it costs less than the Bifrost or Gungnir upgrades themselves.'

 
Note that they say nothing about sound getting better, simply more features. They even say a similar thing about their Magni amp. In other words, they make no claims that their more expensive gear sounds better, simply that it offers more features. This is why I like Schiit - there's no snake oil. Of course they make more expensive stuff, they're a company and that's how they make money. People will buy more expensive stuff because they think it will be better.
 
Oct 7, 2014 at 11:15 AM Post #120 of 138
 
 
  I hate noise on sensitive IEMs, the O2 is pretty much hiss free, but the volume control is less than optimal for IEM use.
anyway there are probably other options and in a real desktop configuration(the leckerton isn't really made for fullsize headphones and doesn't pack the power of an O2), but that's the only one I was lucky to fell uppon.

Have you tried putting resistors between the amp and IEMs? You might have to experiment with different ohms of resistance to find the best balance of sound quality and resistance, but I've heard of people having success with that.
 

the problem is that most of those ultra sensitive IEMs are multi BA drivers and get massive signature changes from resistors. I do have a few resistor adapters(3,5,30,100ohm) and only my IE80 can benefits from them without noticeable change in signature. every other IEMs would then need extra EQ to compensate the signature changes. not really practical in my case as I use mostly DAPs with crappy EQ functions. on the computer it would need some time to EQ but it's not impossible.
I'm not saying to never do it, but it might be a very good idea to find an impedance response curve of the IEM to know where one is going, before betting on resistors.
 
obviously I'm the idiot for buying low impedance, high sensitivity multi BA IEMs, but my favorite IEMs happen to be mostly that. :'( 


"Hiss Buster" resistor dividers can better maintain low Z drive and flatter frequency response than just series R if you need higher attenuation like 20 dB or more with a 1/10 Zdriver divider R to gnd paralleling the driver
 
the only "right " solution though for really sensitive iem is to have step down audio output transformers
 

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