What is the special sauce behind the Chord Hugo?
Aug 1, 2014 at 7:45 PM Post #3 of 138
  People claim that is has a unique sound unlike any other, what exactly gives it this characteristic? 

 
People claim to have seen Bigfoot , Yeti and the Loch Ness Monster
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Without some unbiased aka blind tests we only have the predictable hype and anecdotes and the impressive price tag of course , the specs are fine apart from this one (Output power - 1KHz 1V sinewave both channels driven 0.1% distortion (-80db)) but I have not seen any independent testing
 
Aug 2, 2014 at 12:02 AM Post #4 of 138
What's wrong with .1% distortion?
 
Aug 2, 2014 at 2:52 AM Post #5 of 138
The 0.1% THD figure is incorrect, and yes 0.1% is very important, as one can hear -120dB or 0.0001% for higher order harmonics. The published spec is 0.0005% at 3V RMS 1k, but this is conservative, using a passive notch filter I can measure 0.0001% THD 3v RMS - and its only 2nd and 3rd harmonic, no other distortion and no other noise floor modulation at all. The figure for 1v RMS will be much lower than the 0.0001% level. I don't make great claims about the measurements as there are more important things to talk about, and Hugo challenges the capability of test equipment.
 
On a technical level (and you can verify these points with measurements), if you wanted to give 3 reasons why people claim it has a unique sound then they would be:
 
1.  Use of largest ever tap length digital filter - the 26,368 tap WTA filter. Now the interpolation filter has the job of recovering the bits in between the samples, and if you look at the math, if you use an infinite tap length filter, then you will perfectly recover the original bandwidth limited signal - it would be as if you had not sampled the signal at all! Now the problem with real life is that we can't use infinite tap length filters. Conventional DAC's use a few hundred taps, and this will give a good frequency domain response, but poor time domain response. The poor time domain response means that the transients (the starting and stopping of notes) is not reproduced accurately enough, so the brain can't tell when a note starts or finishes.
 
To verify that Hugo has the most sophisticated filter ever, measure the filter using 0dB random noise as a source. You will see the OP is very close to an ideal brick wall filter - much closer than any other digital product available today.   
 
2. Lack of noise floor modulation. I won't go into the details technically why, as its too complicated, and this performance comes from many, many factors. Anyhow, if you measure Hugo's OP from 0dB to nothing, and use a passive notch filter, the noise floor is completely unchanging. This is very important subjectively - noise floor modulation makes the it sound hard and grainy if very bad; bright if moderate, and when it is completely removed, instruments have a much bigger timbre range. Hugo has un-measurable noise floor modulation, if you use a passive notch filter. You need to use a notch filter as the ADC's in test equipment have much more noise floor modulation than Hugo has.
 
3. Small signal fidelity. Low level signals are crucial to the perception of sound stage depth, and detail resolution. DAC's have big difficulties with small signals - they create distortion, and adjust the signal amplitude (effectively having different gain at different signal levels). This is measured with fundamental linearity tests. Now Hugo reproduces a -140dB signal perfectly - no amplitude error, no distortion. Indeed, you can go from -40dB to -140dB and see no distortion, no change in noise floor, with perfect fundamental linearity. You will not get this performance from other DAC topologies, and its never been done before at Hugo's price point.
 
If you would like more info on these points, have a look at my other posts. One of my posts has measurement FFT's of -40dB and -140dB.
 
A final point - we audiophiles are a fickle bunch, with lots of different passions and tastes - but everybody that has listened to it, the acclaim has been universal. Now that really is odd!   
 
Aug 2, 2014 at 3:35 AM Post #6 of 138
  The 0.1% THD figure is incorrect, and yes 0.1% is very important, as one can hear -120dB or 0.0001% for higher order harmonics.

 
Not in music. Which is what most of us listen to on our stereos. Imagine how horrible most good speaker systems are with nearly 1% distortion. Yet a good speaker system sounds better than headphones.
 
Shall I talk about how effective dynamic noise reduction is in low level sound where OUR EARS AREN'T AS SENSITIVE? How about how that noise floor is TOTALLY INAUDIBLE.
 
You can't look at numbers as an abstract thing. How they sound in the real world with human ears is what matters.
 
Aug 2, 2014 at 3:56 AM Post #7 of 138
Sorry I have to disagree with you there. Its with music you can hear -120dB high order harmonics (something you don't get with loudspeakers). I had a circuit where I could switch in and out distortion at -120dB and the music sounded harder and brighter - it was small but noticeable. Now I agree that 0.1% 2nd harmonic is no great shakes, but 0.0001% 19th harmonic is a completely different story. In the case above it gave an infinite series of odd order harmonics each at -120dB.
 
Same is true with noise floor modulation - very low levels of noise floor modulation changes instrument timbre, you can only listen to it with music. You may not hear the noise per se, but the brain processes the noise floor modulation so it changes the character of instruments.
 
I agree it's how it sounds to us as humans that counts - and all my listening tests are based on very careful objective evaluation using music.
 
Rob
 
Aug 2, 2014 at 4:26 AM Post #8 of 138
Do you have a cite for AES or somewhere like that for the ability to hear any kind of sound under music at -120dB? Because you're well into the threshold of pain on peaks to be able to reproduce anything that quiet at an audible level.
 
In the audio myths video, Ethan Winer takes some pretty objectionable noise. About the worst kind of noise you can imagine and starts dropping it down under music. How far down can you hear it in that video?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
 
Your description of what this sounds like is textbook for expectation bias... "harder sound", "you can only hear it with music", "small but noticeable". Whenever something is small but noticeable, that is when you need a double blind test.
 
Aug 2, 2014 at 5:42 AM Post #9 of 138
Actually, the expectation bias was that it would not make a difference. The fact that this was actually audible was giving me problems, I wanted it to be inaudible.
 
And yes I know all too well the pitfalls of expectation bias, and the problems of listening tests. And yes, when I get extraordinary results I conduct blind listening tests, and each time I have done that it had confirmed my initial impressions. 
 
Aug 2, 2014 at 10:12 AM Post #12 of 138
  Actually, the expectation bias was that it would not make a difference. The fact that this was actually audible was giving me problems, I wanted it to be inaudible.
 
And yes I know all too well the pitfalls of expectation bias

 
In that case, you should know that expectation bias can not be consciously controlled - thinking otherwise is the first major pitfall. If only it was possible to do so reliably, there would be no need for blind tests. There is an important difference between expecting (sub-conscious) something, and wanting (conscious) it. Expectation bias falls into the former category, and it can "work" independently of, or even against the listener's will.
 
And yes, when I get extraordinary results I conduct blind listening tests, and each time I have done that it had confirmed my initial impressions. 

 

Well, previously you were referring to "small but noticeable" differences. An extraordinary result would be a "night and day" type of difference that one would expect from a 10 dB frequency response error, for example.
 
By the way, it would be not be difficult to simulate the effects you think are audible (like high order distortion or noise modulation at a very low level) in software on a short sample of your choice, and then you could perform an ABX test with your best equipment and post the score.
 
Aug 2, 2014 at 2:42 PM Post #13 of 138
  Sorry I have to disagree with you there. Its with music you can hear -120dB high order harmonics (something you don't get with loudspeakers). I had a circuit where I could switch in and out distortion at -120dB and the music sounded harder and brighter - it was small but noticeable. Now I agree that 0.1% 2nd harmonic is no great shakes, but 0.0001% 19th harmonic is a completely different story. In the case above it gave an infinite series of odd order harmonics each at -120dB.

 
We have had extraordinary claims from people here before (including Mr Nugent and his 2ps jitter claims) and since they are quite different from the century or so of published psychophysics research on distortion audibility thresholds we generally ask for strong evidence like ABX logs - was this done at normal listening levels  with actual music or test tones?
 
I'd go further than stv014 and ask if you could please provide us with some short samples with/without the -120db distortion components so that we we can test ourselves - if you have evidence that harmonics at -120db are audible there is a guaranteed AES paper ! I've certainly never found such claims for low level distortion audibility in any other AES paper - even JA at Stereophile who is one of the few magazine Editors to bother with measurements (and a qualified engineer) would not be in the least bit concerned by something like the below
 

 
Aug 2, 2014 at 3:57 PM Post #14 of 138
   
...was this done at normal listening levels  with actual music or test tones?

I often prefer subnormal listening levels and some of my favorite music would be perceived as test tones by most people. Does that invalidate sound science for me and do I have to either change my listening preferences or stay away from this forum and buy myself a chord hugo? 
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Aug 2, 2014 at 4:12 PM Post #15 of 138
I cast my vote for changing your listening preferences.
 

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