[dexter3d]

 
Quote:

I was labelling the attitudes of people, including yours, as treating science as religious people do their religion, not DBTs.

Once again, show me where my treatment of science resembled religious beliefs. If you can't, then I suggest you stop your a priori labeling, cause repeating cliches without any connection is totally meaningless and counterproductive.
 
Quote:

I'm trying to get to the heart of the underlying problem to address your question more thoroughly.
 

 
It doesn't look like that judging from your posts in this thread.
 
Quote:

Have you noticed that whenever science is discussed, you try and change the subject to be about cables, and when cables are discussed, you try and switch back to science?
 

 
No I am not changing anything. The subject directly relates to a lot of cable BS that is going on, and science is the only way to debunk it. Now you conceded yourself that blind testing has no viable alternatives in listening tests, and wavoman agreed that most USB cables are as good as they can be. These are the two things that I want to stress, and if they are agreed upon, then IMO the proclamation of cable forum 'DBT FREE' seems very suspicious at least.
 
 
Quote:

Really, if you look at the rules on Head-fi, they state that the discussion of topics which cause endless, forum-trashing arguments are not permitted to be discussed.
 

 
Rules again, huh. Well, maybe you are putting the blame on the wrong side, did you think about that? Who is more responsible for endless arguments - those advocating a spaghetti monster, or those trying to debunk it by rational means, or at least asking for some kind of evidence? Blind testing, however imperfect, has no viable alternatives among such means, and you seem to concede that. What about this for a proposal: instead of DBT-FREE, let's make it USB-CABLE-bull-FREE? Which of the two prohibitions would be more plausible, for the sake of keeping neat discussions, in case that is sooo important?
 
 
Quote:

People are not capable of discussing politics, religion or DBT in a way that is useful to anyone.

 
 
I am surprised how easy you put politics, religion and DBT in the same category. Blind testing is not a belief, it is the best method we have, you acknowledged it yourself(?). Then how about adjusting the rest of your rhetoric accordingly? 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

I like the idea of a "USB-CABLE-bull-FREE" area of the forum. It balances things out.

 

[wavoman]

Quote:

...can you give me a link to such 'unbearable', 'inhospitable' discussions, where cable believers were sodomized in writing by crazy DBT maniacs?...

 
The bad behavior was on both sides.  As soon as someone introduced DBT, the thread became an endless back-and-forth on the basic concept of DBT, like this thread.  No progress was made.
 
Posters wanted to be able to post reviews comparing two pieces of gear without being hounded "was the test blind, dude, was it, was it??".  Other people wanted to read these non-DBT comparisons, and read comments, and not wade through mounds of DBT discussion, so why not?
 
In Sound Science we are free to reference any such review, and pursue it further with blind testing.  We are also free to discuss the merits and methodologies of blind testing.
 
Works for me. 
 
Evidently we can't change the views of the folks who say "if I hear it, there must be a difference", so why keep trying.  People really do want to post how great sone $500 USB cable is.  If I'm motivated, I might try it myself blind, and post "I hear no difference when I test.  BTW my test was blind.  Over in Sound Science I give the details.  PM me if you want my help on re-doing your test blind".  That's OK.  It is not OK simply to attack the reveiwer and say "you didn't do it blind, you moron, so I reject everything you say".
 
See the difference?  I myself have posted how good an uber expensive piece of gear sounds -- great! -- without pointing out that something cheaper might sound just as good, and without mentioning that I have not blind tested or even A/B'd.  I think that's understood.  In my case, the piece of kit fit perfectly in to my rig ergonomically and connection-wise, and I had some extra money in my pocket, I liked the dealer, I needed the functionality right now and he had the thing in stock, so why not.  It's a hobby.  This is now different than ordering a very expensive bottle of wine at dinner, and not asking if it is better or worse than the much cheaper one you had last week (and cetainly not comparing them blindfolded!). 

 

[jcx]

the cable forum did have the no DBT prohibition in place and the rest of the forums didn't have the ban until a mod extended the DBT ban to all forums a few years ago
 
the "Rules" explicitly stated that people weren't expected to agree all of the time and civil discussion of alternative views is to be encouraged - the proper response to uselessly argumentative, aggravating, redundant posts "polluting" your thread was to put the "misbehaving" posters on your ignore list
 
extending the DBT prohibition beyond the cable forum seems unwarranted and is a disservice to the hobby by allowing the dominant naive subjectivism to be spread to newcomers
 
I think we should try to educate people about what DBT tests do and don't/can't say - the biggest being that "just listen" isn't reliable, repeatable, transferable - you will hear differences - without level matching and controls many perceived differences are in fact "real" but not informative about underlying equipment effect on audio

 

[aimlink]

 
Quote:

The enthusiam of youth collides with the experience of age.  Allow me to rip off Churchill: "A scientist in his twenties who does not believe 'science can conquer all' has no heart; a scientist in his sixties who has not learned the falsity of this belief has no head"
 

Ah... indeed.

 
Quote:

Once again, show me where my treatment of science resembled religious beliefs. If you can't, then I suggest you stop your a priori labeling, cause repeating cliches without any connection is totally meaningless and counterproductive.
 
Well, your attitude is the most telling evidence of this.  An attitude that you only need step back and look at in its splendour to see it for what it is.
 
It doesn't look like that judging from your posts in this thread.
 
 
No I am not changing anything. The subject directly relates to a lot of cable BS that is going on, and science is the only way to debunk it. Now you conceded yourself that blind testing has no viable alternatives in listening tests, and wavoman agreed that most USB cables are as good as they can be. These are the two things that I want to stress, and if they are agreed upon, then IMO the proclamation of cable forum 'DBT FREE' seems very suspicious at least.
 
 
 
Rules again, huh. Well, maybe you are putting the blame on the wrong side, did you think about that? Who is more responsible for endless arguments - those advocating a spaghetti monster, or those trying to debunk it by rational means, or at least asking for some kind of evidence? Blind testing, however imperfect, has no viable alternatives among such means, and you seem to concede that. What about this for a proposal: instead of DBT-FREE, let's make it USB-CABLE-bull-FREE? Which of the two prohibitions would be more plausible, for the sake of keeping neat discussions, in case that is sooo important?
 

 
Well, your attitude here is one of such a high degree of certainty about what you're saying that you feel it OK to be condescending and derogatory about it.  Afterall, nothing better than a harsh wakeup call. No.  All those who are misled and are in eyeshot of your self-righteous prose on this issue will thank you for it later?  Such certainty is based on science as your backdrop, right?  The current scientific evidence will at best allow you to feel unsurprised that you're personally unable to hear differences between cables.  It allows you to advise someone venturing into cable-dom that it's unlikely that they'll get significant returns if at all, from such an endeavor.  However, if you look closely at the current scientific evidence on the issue, you'll realize that you cannot advise that they'll get no joy out of it with dismissive certainty and condescending admonishment of those who claim their experience to be otherwise from what science has been able to demonstrate.
 
Someone who doesn't treat science as one does religious beliefs will relax a little on the issue and not be so controlling and frustrated as is the frustrated missionary who doesn't feel listened to by this world of unbelieving heathens who are being led astray to the doom of not their wallets, but their souls. 

 
Or is this more about resenting being asked to shut up when you felt you deserved to be listened to?  If that's the case, then let's get on with it?  

 

[dexter3d]

Quote:

Well, your attitude here is one of such a high degree of certainty about what you're saying that you feel it OK to be condescending and derogatory about it.

 
The first quote of mine that you highlighted is a sort of truism, even cable believers admit that - there is definitely lots and lots of BS in cable business. The second quote is sarcastic, but we are grown up people(?) and it relates to the point which I was trying to make. 500$ USB cables for audio are a kind of spaghetti monsters, currently there is no controversy about it in learned circles. Available objective evidence allows me to be quite certain about this, let's say, to the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt', and there is no arrogance or close-mindedness involved. What is there is a lot of smoke-screen BS (look up my quote from a 'high-end' usb cable testimonials) and some nice money to make out of that scam. Sarcasm towards scam IMO is welcome and should be encouraged. No more philosophy or naming/shaming please - if you want to object to something I say - state it clearly.
 
 
Quote:

Someone who doesn't treat science as one does religious beliefs will relax a little on the issue and not be so controlling and frustrated as is the frustrated missionary who doesn't feel listened to by this world of unbelieving heathens who are being led astray to the doom of not their wallets, but their souls.
 

 
No no no. It is not me who is controlling (a bit frustrated due to the subj. - maybe). Controlling is the crux of this thread. Head-fi forum is controlled - there is legalized bias even towards mentioning blind testing. How about 'controlling' the cable forum from SCAM instead?

 

[wavoman]

 
Quote:

[snip]
 
extending the DBT prohibition beyond the cable forum seems unwarranted and is a disservice to the hobby by allowing the dominant naive subjectivism to be spread to newcomers
 
I think we should try to educate people about what DBT tests do and don't/can't say - the biggest being that "just listen" isn't reliable, repeatable, transferable - you will hear differences - without level matching and controls many perceived differences are in fact "real" but not informative about underlying equipment effect on audio

 
Perfect.  And perfectly put.  The part I formatted in bold/italics should be the mantra of this community.  That won't happen, but we should make it a sticky (do we still have the sticky concept? or did Jude "stick" us with software that doesn't allow a stick?) on Sound Science and link to it in repsonses to particularly poorly done (subjective) A/B comparisons that draw huge conclusions we find doubtful at best.
 
Maybe I'll tattoo it on my ... no it's a tad long.  Let's make it longer!  I would add: ", particularly for the placebo effect and the preference for, or presumed superiority of, neat/new/popular/possibly expensive gear," after "controls".  And "to the individual listener" after " 'real' ".

Perhaps we add "We explicitly acknowledge there may be very good reasons (including increased satisfaction and pleasure) to add the piece you are testing to your rig even if the audio improvement you hear now, as surely you do hear it, might not be repeatable under rigorous blind testing conditions at a subsequent time."  And maybe "We also ackowledge that appearance, fit/finish, feature applicability, and other considerations enter in to the audio buying decision along with sound quality and price"

 

[wavoman]

Here is my hack of jcx, fully put together from my previous post ... I like it!  It summarizes my view of this issue perfectly.  Kindly make lots of further edits/suggestions/changes.  Let's collaborate. The real question: how can we make newbies read it?
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
[size=medium]When making direct A/B comparisons of audio equipment (DACs, amps, cables, whatever) the strategy of "just listen" isn't reliable, repeatable, or transferable.  You may hear differences, make conclusions, and form strong preferences, but without level matching and controls -- particularly controls for the placebo effect and the preference for, or presumed superiority of, neat/new/popular/possibly expensive gear -- many perceived differences are in fact "real" to the individual listener but not informative about the true underlying equipment effect on audio sound quality.[/size]
  
[size=medium]We explicitly acknowledge there may be very good reasons (including increased satisfaction and pleasure) to add the equipment you are testing to your rig even if the audio improvement you hear now, as you do surely hear it, might not be repeatable under rigorous blind testing conditions at a subsequent time. We also acknowledge that appearance, fit/finish, feature applicability, and other considerations enter in to the audio buying decision along with sound quality and price.[/size]
 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

The first quote of mine that you highlighted is a sort of truism, even cable believers admit that - there is definitely lots and lots of BS in cable business. The second quote is sarcastic, but we are grown up people(?) and it relates to the point which I was trying to make. 500$ USB cables for audio are a kind of spaghetti monsters, currently there is no controversy about it in learned circles. Available objective evidence allows me to be quite certain about this, let's say, to the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt', and there is no arrogance or close-mindedness involved. What is there is a lot of smoke-screen BS (look up my quote from a 'high-end' usb cable testimonials) and some nice money to make out of that scam. Sarcasm towards scam IMO is welcome and should be encouraged. No more philosophy or naming/shaming please - if you want to object to something I say - state it clearly.
 
No no no. It is not me who is controlling (a bit frustrated due to the subj. - maybe). Controlling is the crux of this thread. Head-fi forum is controlled - there is legalized bias even towards mentioning blind testing. How about 'controlling' the cable forum from SCAM instead?

So at what price point is it no longer BS?  Is it OK for you if a seller promotes his $100 cable on the basis that it makes for better sound than the $50 one? 
 
As to controlling, the community was here before you and some rules have been put in place, clearly for good reason.  Additionally, we usually join these forums with the well intentioned, though myopic view.  Some take the reasons for rules on merit, while some will not back down until it's proven to them.  The trend of this thread illustrates why it's best to restrict this to one forum.  Not ideal, mind you, but best.

 

[jcx]

 
Quote:

 
...As to controlling, the community was here before you and some rules have been put in place, clearly for good reason.  Additionally, we usually join these forums with the well intentioned, though myopic view.  Some take the reasons for rules on merit, while some will not back down until it's proven to them.  The trend of this thread illustrates why it's best to restrict this to one forum.  Not ideal, mind you, but best.

for a very long time the DBT ban applied only to the Cable forum - the other forums did not have major problems
 
and the "Rules" specifically supported diverse opinion and prescribed using the Ignore button as a remedy for those wishing to limit their input as their own choice
 
certainly extending the the DBT discussion ban to forums where it was seldom a problem seems a little controlling, creating the Sound Science ghetto hardly seems to compensate
 

 

[dexter3d]

Quote:

So at what price point is it no longer BS?  Is it OK for you if a seller promotes his $100 cable on the basis that it makes for better sound than the $50 one?   

 
There is no such thing as better sounding USB cables. It is a scam. Most of the usb cables are made according to the specs, and they can't 'sound' any better. Charging $500 for a usb cable based on it's alleged superior sonic qualities is a fraud.
 
 
Quote:

As to controlling, the community was here before you

 
That's a rather poor argument, as there were sun worshipers before you as well
 
Quote:

and some rules have been put in place, clearly for good reason.

 
Here's where we disagree. To my mind, making the forum 'scam free' would serve the same purpose far better. And there definitely are things which can be put into scam category beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Roger Strummer]

Quote:

 
There is no such thing as better sounding USB cables. It is a scam. Most of the usb cables are made according to the specs, and they can't 'sound' any better. Charging $500 for a usb cable based on it's alleged superior sonic qualities is a fraud.
 
 
 
That's a rather poor argument, as there were sun worshipers before you as well
 
 
Here's where we disagree. To my mind, making the forum 'scam free' would serve the same purpose far better. And there definitely are things which can be put into scam category beyond reasonable doubt.

Although you are probably right regarding the USB cables issue, aimlink's point is valid. At what point do you draw the line between being scam and being acceptable due to lack of evidence? After all we are far from having the last word regards cables from the large scale DBT's that have been performed so far, so knowing the limit between ban from allowed would not be a trivial task. The problem is not in the extreme cases, but the ones in the middle.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

So at what price point is it no longer BS?  Is it OK for you if a seller promotes his $100 cable on the basis that it makes for better sound than the $50 one? 

You can actually be objective and quantify this.  Take the price of materials, labor, overhead, taxes, and allow a fair profit.  If the price is astronomically higher, then it's pretty safe to call something a scam.
 
A lot of the manufacturers try to obfuscate this by using "$150" connectors and claiming a remarkably high price on the raw cable.
 
Nonsense.
 
The vast majority of the cables are made in a few factories in China.  They will make a spool of cable to your specs, it gets shipped over, then is cut and terminated in someone's garage.  So those $300 cables and $10,000 cables very well could have been made by the same workers in the same factory and cost each manufacturer, say, $500 to be produced, regardless of the MSRP.
 
Here's a chart of copper's spot price:
 

 
You can find the daily fluctuations if you search for them.
 
You see, copper costs about the same the world over.  The tooling has an initial capital cost, but making wire is big business and you can find competitive rates.  Stuff like cryo is inexpensive; maybe a few dollars a cable.  Labor and overhead are nearly identical no matter whether it's a $200 cable or a $10,000 cable.
 
R&D?  More nonsense.  There's no way to actually develop a cable.  According to believers, you can't test a cable with any known test equipment.  Further, believers claim that A/B listening tests don't work.  That might be convenient when arguing for cables, but it also means that every single specialty cable on the market is a complete shot in the dark.  Without testing, there can be zero development.  Otherwise, you'd have to go through an infinite number of prototypes and - even then - there would be no reliable way to judge the prototypes against each other!
 
In other words, each and every cable design is something someone just decided to make up.  They just pulled the designs out of their backsides.  They're just fabrications, since no research is possible.
 
So the only costs are what's been listed, since design is just make-it-up-as-you-go-along fairyland.  (If you disagree, please tell me what test gear is used to develop cables.  Also, if you know of any measurements from cable development, I would love to know.)
 
Oh, wait.  There's also marketing. Stuff like ads in Stereophile.  And also putting shills on commission to sell cables to the unknowing on Internet forums.  You know a few have been caught here, don't you?
 
Even then, the profits are remarkable.  A lot of businesses would be happy getting around 15% return on investment.  That's actually pretty good.  So if your total cost of producing a cable is $25, then it could be sold at $28.75 for what a lot of businesses consider a healthy return.
 
Now, if you take that $25 cable and sell it for $300, that's over twelve times what your break-even is.  That's a remarkable profit.  And it would be more than fair to call it a scam.

 

[wavoman]

What do other audio forums do with regards to this issue?  I don't frequent any, so I can't tell you, but some people here must know the answer to this.
 
Are they all worried about endless DBT flame wars rendering threads useless?  If not, why it this a particular problem for us?  Do they have rules about uber expensive cable discussions?
 
We can talk about DBT all we want in Sound Science, so I think we need to let the Cable section discuss any type of cable, no matter how much a scam it obviously is, to us.  Remember, these people actually do hear the differences they claim, due to sighted testing.
 
It would be better to restore the right to discuss blind testing to areas other than Cables, and we could lobby for this.  The rule would be: discuss specific tests, and it is fair to ask whether an A/B test was sighted or blind.  But no discussion of DBT methodology or worth -- that would get shut down by the MODs or moved to Sound Science.
 
We could ask the powers that be.  We could also ask that discussions of very exotic (expensive) cables be limited to Cables.  And while the many posters who said "finding the dividing line between reasonable and scam is tough" are no doubt correct, for sure we can pick a high dollar limit (using e.g. Uncle Erik's analysis as a guide) and be comfortable that cables (of any type) selling for more than that must be discussed only in one area.

 

[Ypoknons]

Not just DBT, but measurements too. Rather than only an all out, frontal assault on whatever, we should also encourage and refine review methodology - DACs and amp could use more than blind tests, and errors in sighted tests can be reduced (important since it's hard to blind test headphones, only maybe with custom IEMs is it possible). More reviews need to volume match, headphone reviewers should have methods to standardize fit and we should all use some standard tracks. I see DBT as one part of improving methodology, not something that stands alone. 
 
Of course, this is just talk from me right now, since I barely do reviews.