[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tintin47 /img/forum/go_quote.gif While I would agree with the room placement contention, in my opion, good speakers properly placed in a room that is even DIY treated for listening (rugs or tapestries on the walls etc.) can walk all over any headphone I have heard. That is a lot of conditions to meet, but what I am saying is that headphones are not simply better than speakers.

k

 

[john53]

I believe that you can achive a very good result even with not so expensive speaker setups,but it's a bit more difficult.you can't test the speakers,amps etc on your own room,this is a problem.
i have heard many good speakers setups in the past,but to tell the truth they were all very expensive.I have yet to hear a speaker set up that costs 1100 euro(that's the cost of my headphone rig)to sound better or the same as my hp rig.Sure,somethings are better with speakers but in general i believe that headphones are best value for money,if you care for audiophile quality.

 

[limpidglitch]

I believe in co-existence, but for now I do not have enough place for a proper speaker setup.

 

[john53]

Quote:

Originally Posted by limpidglitch /img/forum/go_quote.gif I believe in co-existence, but for now I do not have enough place for a proper speaker setup.

yes,of course someone who loves music should have a decent speaker setup too.If you don't have enough space(but have money

)you may look at some small floorstanding speakers(spendor sa 1 for example)with good source and amplification.

 

[Clarkmc2]

I would never disagree about what headphones do not do well re: speakers. It is just that my own priorities are much better served by headphones.

I admit that my initial post was designed as propaganda to turn more members of a speaker site to the dark side. Or at least level the playing field. I do like speakers, of course. Look up JBL 4345 and Hammer Dynamics Super 12 and you will see just how dedicated I am.

But for what I listen to and how I like to listen to it, stat phones are the best. Coherence, accuracy, fidelity and naturalness of sound are much more important to me than imaging and soundstage. My Hammers are better at imaging than 99.9% of the speakers out there, and are for speakers incredibly coherent, but I still go to the Stax whenever I can.

Clark

 

[cheemo]

My setup is that my speakers are more laid back sounding (B&W/Arcam) combo but when I want a more aggressive stance, I plop on my Grados with a tube amp. Best of both worlds to me.

 

[GreatDane]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarkmc2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is just that my own priorities are much better served by headphones. I admit that my initial post was designed as propaganda to turn more members of a speaker site to the dark side. Or at least level the playing field.

Similar to my situation perhaps...I love cranking speakers but I rarely have the chance and HP give me much higher fidelity.


That sounds like me at another certain AV forum

Spreading the love...err, EVIL.

 

[Meliboeus]

Nice post, i agree almost 100%, and i wuold add another argument, one of the most evident shortcomings of an headphone setup is the lack of proper "soundstage", but there's a technology which could overcome it and make phones sound just like speakers: binaural recording. Probably we'll never have any material recorded and released this way...but the possibility detracts from the alleged technical superiority of speakers.


Another limit inherent to headphone playback is the lack of physical punch, this is probably the only one impossible to avoid, to move air you need a big driver, there's no way escaping...however some listener may prefer the faster and less invadent bass of a good headphone rather than speakers, even if it is far from the real live experience...

Finally i just wanted to point out that many users are unable to use speakers, me for example but i think there are thousands, potentially interested in high quality music listening but lacking room, not living alone or wathever the reason. In such situations, cans are the only way to go, there's no question...thankfully there are lots of headphone dedicated hi-fi products, ranging from budget to high end, and a great informative community like Head-fi.

 

[Clarkmc2]

Binaural CD's have been available on this website, but they are not yet up with a web order page. Ordering Form for The Binaural Source catalog

It has been written that binaural works perfectly only if your head is the same size as the dummy head used in the recording. Don't blame me for any jokes about this...

I could not agree more about the need to use phones sometimes. Our crusade should be to end the perception that it is a hardship or a poor second choice.

Dollar for dollar, headphones always offer better sound. I don't consider better sound a hardship. The best 'phones will best any speaker I have ever heard.

Clark

 

[Uncle Erik]

Binaural is pretty wonderful - I have several recordings - but it doesn't compare to a good set of dipoles. For those who haven't heard dipoles, I strongly recommend giving them a try. The soundstage is unequalled except for the real thing. If you have a Magnepan dealer nearby, take your reference discs over for a demo. You'll be surprised by the soundstage.

I also disagree with the cost of good speakers. Buying used and DIY is the way to go. I paid $300 for a pair of ESS AMT-1 speakers that walk all over my headphones when it comes to soundstage. My parents have them now, and run off an 20 year old receiver you could get for $25 at a thrift store. It's not the greatest amp, but it's plenty good enough. Similarly, I paid $650 for a pair of Quad ESL-63s. They need a little work (I'll get to that over the summer) but paired with the $700 Conrad-Johnson MV52, they're better than any headphone I've owned or heard. That, for about the same price as the HD-800 by itself.

For me, headphones boil down to a preference for quiet, private listening. I love my headphones, but speakers have proven a better choice for overall enjoyment as well as superior performance. If you buy used or build your own, speakers can cost less than a high-end headphone rig. The real value for headphones lies mostly in the mid-priced range. Something like a HD-600 with a Gilmore Lite gives you maximum performance for your money. If you spend more on headphones, you creep into quality speaker territory. Do not underestimate the value of quality speakers paired with a used/vintage receiver. You don't need expensive speaker amps for reasonable peeformance - you can get by with a thrift store find. Unfortunately, headphones are much more sensitive to amplification and there isn't a 50 year stock of good used amps on the market.

If you have the room to run speakers and no one to complain when you do, you should look into a speaker setup in addition to your headphones. Especially if you're looking to get into the high-end of headphones, since speakers might be a better deal in terms of cost.

 

[atothex]

I don't like arguments about superiority. To me, the advantages boil down to soundstaging/bass for speakers, and price/detail for headphones. They're both convenient in their own way, and I'll always need to have both.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by atothex /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...and price/detail for headphones.

You get detail equal to headphones from ribbons, electrostats, planars, and AMTs.

Further, I paid less for a pair of AMTs than I did for the HD-650 I had.

I think the deciding factor between headphones and speakers is one of convenience. Headphones do not necessarily mean an advantage in price or detail.

 

[krmathis]

You certainly have some good points.
The top end headphone rigs are quite affordable compared to the top end speaker rigs, and as you state we do not need to put though or money into the listening room. Just sit down wherever you like.

Headphones have some limitations though. Physical bass impact and sound stage are probably the two most obvious ones.
I am a huge fan of headphones, and do 99.5% of my listening time on them. But if I had unlimited money resources I would certainly go speakers. Buy a large apartment with a suitable sized listening room, tune/damp the room and fill it with top end gear.

 

[atothex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif You get detail equal to headphones from ribbons, electrostats, planars, and AMTs. Further, I paid less for a pair of AMTs than I did for the HD-650 I had.

How much were those? And how much for the amp?

If someone can tell me they can definitely get a speaker/amp combo for less than $1500 that's more detailed than a JH13 + Pico, I'd be VERY interested. Also a little bit shocked.

 

[Clarkmc2]

It may be possible to build a speaker that matches the detail, clarity and natural tone of the best headphones. But I doubt it. The larger amps needed for speakers are not going to yield as good a signal as smaller amps. Even Nelson Pass has realized this with his First Watt offerings, especially the F1 and F2. Also notice that they are designed for very high efficiency speakers. The equation has not changed since the early days of audio. Lower powered amps and high efficiency transducers will yield higher fidelity.

Electrostatic 'phones are not particularly efficient, but they are similar to efficient speakers in that they require little power. When you take a small (headphone sized) electrostatic transducer and power it with the best amplification available, it will remain in a class by itself.

I understand how one might fall in love with a particular approach, but some things are basic and don't change with time. Most so called high end equipment does not sound very special. Nice looking and exclusive, but sonically no way to get your money's worth. I have been listening to speakers considered special since the 1950's, and I am sorry but I have a working BS detector and the "high end" is not full of stellar sounding offerings, and bargains are nowhere to be seen. The world of headphones is full of both.

When something really special comes along, it is not the hyped Stereophile approved stuff. The best my well traveled friends have ever heard was a spartan room at the 2007 CES at the Venetian. It was an adequate SACD player, a KR Kronzilla amp and pair of Escalante Fremonts, $20000 amp and $20000 speakers. A lot of money, but in their opinions worth it.

Quote:

Further, I paid less for a pair of AMTs than I did for the HD-650 I had.

I am sorry, but this "logic" is disingenuous at best. Comparing bargain used prices with the new prices of other equipment is not a valid comparison. If both prices are for used equipment, it is an admission that great headphones hold their value well because they are good, but yesterday's flavor of the month speaker fad is rapidly devalued when the honeymoon is over and reality sets in. The KR-Escalante combo actually is great and can not be had for the price of Senn 650s or any other headphone and amp.

Let's have a reality check, for heaven's sake. I've seen it for fifty years and I'm not suddenly falling for it it now. I love speakers and I love headphones, and I love music even more. And I hate hype. Right now Michael Jackson is being paraded as a great artist and line arrays are supposed to be high fi instead of sound reinforcement gear. In future years history will wonder what we were collectively smoking.

Clark