[etys rule]

This is all well and good, but in reality, we all can say goodbye to group buys. Group buys among members within the forum are to be for the benefit of the members. While the manufacturer/vendor discounts their product initially for the members, they are banking on additional full price business in the future. Any discount we receive from a manufacturer/vendor is going to be small when compared to the actual price paid by those vendors. For example, the cost to a major retailer here in NYC for the e3's is $97.80. They sell those same phones retail for $149.99 while the MSRP from Shure is $179.99. So, all in all, even getting these phones with a group buy discount, which I did, I was only able to negotiate to $128.00. In all reality, structuring a process for group buys not only hurts the members through pricing pressure (especially if there is a fee involved) but it also takes the fun out of it.

Just my two cents.

Bye bye group buy.

 

[Spiritboxer]

I'm not sure exactly what's going on because I hadn't intended on buying an E4 so I never bothered with the original thread. Didn't know anything about coupons either but now that I do know there *is* a coupon, can't anyone just call earphone solutions and ask for the code?

 

[viator122]

Quote:

Originally Posted by etys rule This is all well and good, but in reality, we all can say goodbye to group buys. Group buys among members within the forum are to be for the benefit of the members. While the manufacturer/vendor discounts their product initially for the members, they are banking on additional full price business in the future. Any discount we receive from a manufacturer/vendor is going to be small when compared to the actual price paid by those vendors. For example, the cost to a major retailer here in NYC for the e3's is $97.80. They sell those same phones retail for $149.99 while the MSRP from Shure is $179.99. So, all in all, even getting these phones with a group buy discount, which I did, I was only able to negotiate to $128.00. In all reality, structuring a process for group buys not only hurts the members through pricing pressure (especially if there is a fee involved) but it also takes the fun out of it. Just my two cents. Bye bye group buy.

I don't see what your example has to do with how the new policy will affect group buys. You got the vendors to knock 15% off the store price of the e3 (29% off MSRP). So what's the problem? The vendors have to make money, too. Don't forget, they may buy the e3 for $97.80 but they also have to pay rent, electricity, advertising, payroll. So 97.80 is not their cost, plus, they have to make some money, too you know. They're not going to slit their own throats. Why would they? The very existence of a group for a group buy indicates demand.

It's hard to say what the new policy will do to prices. One the one hand, competition should drive prices lower (as we started to see in the now-removed e4 group buy threads), but like some have pointed out, the fee for announcing the deal on Head-Fi will certainly be built into the cost per unit to the buyer.

Either way, I think this new policy will offer protection to Head-Fi and its members and will help streamline the process.

 

[etys rule]

[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally Posted by viator122 I don't see what your example has to do with how the new policy will affect group buys. You got the vendors to knock 15% off the store price of the e3 (29% off MSRP). So what's the problem? The vendors have to make money, too. Don't forget, they may buy the e3 for $97.80 but they also have to pay rent, electricity, advertising, payroll. So 97.80 is not their cost, plus, they have to make some money, too you know. They're not going to slit their own throats. Why would they? The very existence of a group for a group buy indicates demand. It's hard to say what the new policy will do to prices. One the one hand, competition should drive prices lower (as we started to see in the now-removed e4 group buy threads), but like some have pointed out, the fee for announcing the deal on Head-Fi will certainly be built into the cost per unit to the buyer. Either way, I think this new policy will offer protection to Head-Fi and its members and will help streamline the process.

[/size]
My pricing example was simply to illustrate the fact that while we may negotiate a somewhat lower price through a group buy, vendors still enjoy a comfortable margin even at a discounted price. And yes, to your point, they need to cover their overhead. However, once you factor in any additional fee paid to Head-Fi, you mitigate any cost savings achieved through the group sale.

 

[viator122]

Quote:

Originally Posted by etys rule My pricing example was simply to illustrate the fact that while we may negotiate a somewhat lower price through a group buy, vendors still enjoy a comfortable margin even at a discounted price. And yes, to your point, they need to cover their overhead. However, once you factor in any additional fee paid to Head-Fi, you mitigate any cost savings achieved through the group sale.

Maybe, but maybe not. Let's say, for example, there is an e4 group buy and the wholesale price is $140. The group buy price is $160 and there are 50 of us. 50 x $20 = $1000. If we suppose the vendor fee is $100 then it cuts the vendor's profit to $900. To make up for that he'd have to make the group buy price $162. That's still a very significant savings over the MSRP and the street price.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari I think the admin has to remember that these deals have nothing to do with HeadFi. HeadFi is just a medium where the deals can be shared - it can neither claim "ownership" or demand a "fee" for something it had nothing to do with.

How can you say that?! Without Head-Fi there is no deal, no group buy. Do you have ANY idea what Jude pays for rack space and bandwidth? Head-Fi has a LOT to do with providing the place to hold a group buy. Does a conference center not rightly expect a return on the conferences that are held there, even if they don't contribute to the conference other than the space. It really saddens me that you can even say such a thing.

edit: "just a medium" JUST! I'm going to have to stop looking at your post GS, the more I do the pisseder I get. I just can't believe you take Judes efforts so very unthinkingly.

 

[gsferrari]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens How can you say that?! Without Head-Fi there is no deal, no group buy. Do you have ANY idea what Jude pays for rack space and bandwidth? Head-Fi has a LOT to do with providing the place to hold a group buy. Does a conference center not rightly desire a return on the conferences that are held there, even if they don't contribute to the conference other than the space. It really saddens me that you can even say such a thing.

Jude has clearly given me the breakup over the telephone. All the same - HeadFi is still a medium - dont get emotional about it. I am sure jude is looking into it both legally and practically. I think there are some rules about public services...HeadFi is basically leaning towards ebay in terms of operation where fee-based transactions are the way to go. Even though ebay is a public domain...I can draw parallels with HeadFi in this case. The point is - all FS deals must be fee-based...THAT will generate revenue (if the people still want to hang in here after that).

The backbone of HeadFi is the FS section...without it this hobby is finished...

I am well aware of how mush you contribute to support HeadFi and I would love to do the same when I can afford it. Until then dont go all HOLIER THAN THOU on me

 

[gsferrari]

Quote:

Originally Posted by viator122 Maybe, but maybe not. Let's say, for example, there is an e4 group buy and the wholesale price is $140. The group buy price is $160 and there are 50 of us. 50 x $20 = $1000. If we suppose the vendor fee is $100 then it cuts the vendor's profit to $900. To make up for that he'd have to make the group buy price $162. That's still a very significant savings over the MSRP and the street price.

Bingo!

This is considering the fee is roughly 80% of the group buy special price. Have the final rules been drafted? should be interesting...I am in discussion with 2 manufacturers for potential group buys...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens edit: "just a medium" JUST! I'm going to have to stop looking at your post GS, the more I do the pisseder I get. I just can't believe you take Judes efforts so very unthinkingly.

Again - stop being emotional and look at it practically

I take Jude very seriously...but I refuse to lick his boots if I think he is wrong. I will voice my opinion and leave hid better judgement to make a decision. He knows this and I know this. I am sure he doesnt need you to prop him up.

gs

 

[gsferrari]

*

 

[viator122]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari Bingo! This is considering the fee is roughly 80% of the group buy special price. Have the final rules been drafted? should be interesting...I am in discussion with 2 manufacturers for potential group buys...

I don't know, I was just trying to point out that the way the fee is set and the effects of competition between vendors will both affect the final price to the membership. The fee itself is not a deal breaker because it has to be looked at in the context of all the other numbers in the group buy equation.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari ....HeadFi is still a medium - dont get emotional about it....

I'm not sure what your point is about Head-Fi being "a medium."

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari ....I think there are some rules about public services....

I'm not sure what your point is with this statement either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari ....HeadFi is basically leaning towards ebay in terms of operation where fee-based transactions are the way to go....

What are you talking about? How is it leaning toward that? Is there an auction structure here? Does it cost people anything to post stuff for sale in the Gear For Sale/Trade forums? Are you just rambling?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari ....Even though ebay is a public domain...I can draw parallels with HeadFi in this case. The point is - all FS deals must be fee-based...THAT will generate revenue (if the people still want to hang in here after that)....

I'll ask again: Are you rambling? I don't even understand what point you're trying to make, relative to the actual discussion topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari ....The backbone of HeadFi is the FS section...without it this hobby is finished....

Though important, I certainly do not consider the FS section the backbone of Head-Fi. And, without it, the hobby wouldn't be finished. Are you seriously suggesting that if, hypothetically, I removed the Gear For Sale/Trade Forums right now, that the hobby would then cease to exist? That it would halt the development and production of new headphone amps, new headphone cables, new headphones, new earphones, etc.?

Seriously, man, get on point, and make your point. At this point, I'm seriously not understanding what the actual message is you're trying to convey.

Here's one of my key points, made earlier: Quote:

Originally Posted by jude My biggest responsibility to you or any member here is not to save you eight bucks on earphones. My biggest responsibility to the community, as I see it, is to keep the site going, and able to grow as needed, for the long-term (I think a lot further out than you guys might have to with regard to anything Head-Fi-related, because the commitment just keeps growing).

I don't feel any obligation to give away free advertising on Head-Fi for Members of the Trade, and certainly not in the form of quick-in quick-out quick-profit group buys. There's nothing you or anyone else is going to say to change my mind about that. Should I make my primary concern whether or not a bunch of people can save some bucks on a set of headphones if it undermines some of the key underpinnings of the site's survival? Absolutely not.

Regarding the final draft of the first version of the group buy policies: When it's done, I'll post it.

 

[gsferrari]

I am rambling and trying to cover as many points for both sides. Unfortunately I am not being as succint as you like.

My points:

* HeadFi transactions should also be fee based if group buys are fee based. I dont think this is a big deal if a HeadFi charges 5% of the selling price for every transaction. How the buyer/seller deal with this is up to them...they can split the cost...etc.

* Group-Buy "RULES" need to be restricted to items that are otherwise readily available from HeadRoom/TTVJ etc. If none of them sell the Ultimate Ears UE10 (for example) or the Eastsound CDP then the rules should not apply because it is not in direct competition with them.

* Group-Buy "RULES" should not apply to DIY parts/tools/components

* Group-Buy "RULES" cannot apply to audiocubes in the case of Japanese products because audiocubes doesnt offer any of the services that Headroom does (30 day returns/extended warranty etc.)

* The "RULES Implementation" should be transparent. The bidding procedure/selection procedure should be open to the public for all to observe.



I hope this post makes sense to you

sorry for being a pain in the ass...

 

[vranswer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari I am rambling and trying to cover as many points for both sides. Unfortunately I am not being as succint as you like. My points: * HeadFi transactions should also be fee based if group buys are fee based. I dont think this is a big deal if a HeadFi charges 5% of the selling price for every transaction. How the buyer/seller deal with this is up to them...they can split the cost...etc.

Why?

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari Until then dont go all HOLIER THAN THOU on me

Look ...

errrrgh

... I won't get all holier than thou, if you would stop getting so "It's OK for me to wipe my feet on your generosity because the world owes me a cheap deal" on Jude.

 

[braillediver]

I was surprised by the depth of the rules but hey lets see how it works out before we make judgement.

This could be better than the group buys we’ve seen before. Dealers will have to put up a good offer to win the group buy so we might actually see some competition. Previously the group buys were sole source and not really competitive between the dealers.


Mitch