[PinchyCM]

So what's the word here? They're released this coming Monday. I expect to have mine ordered by then.

 

[jude]

Here is an in-process draft--a draft--of the upcoming Head-Fi Group Buy Policy. Keep in mind that there will be some exemptions and clearer definitions in the final first version. Quote:

Due to some recent concerns that have surfaced regarding how Group Buys were being coordinated, we are instituting policies on Head-Fi for how Group Buys will have to be conducted here. Here is a tentative glimpse of the first draft of the Group Buy policies: We will appoint a Group Buy Coordinator from a pool of volunteer candidates, but would prefer it be one of the moderators and/or a veteran member. A Group Buys sub-forum will be created in Head-Fi's forums. This will be a fee-based area, where the vendor will pay a fee to have the Group Buy advertised if their proposal is chosen, as tentatively outlined in the points below (and so their proposal should factor in the cost of the announcement in the Group buys sub-forum), with Sponsors receiving a discounted rate to have their winning proposals posted in the Group Buys sub-forum. Due to some manufacturer pricing policies, we may post the winning Group Buy terms, with the appropriate links and codes, if the vendor advertising it directly would be a violation of manufacturer/distributor pricing policies. We will make a sign-up link available for any vendor that wishes to be contacted when we set up a Group Buy. Vendors, both sponsors and non-sponsors, can contact us at any time to propose a group buy, at which point our list of Group Buy vendors will be contacted to give them an opportunity to submit counter-proposals for that particular Group Buy. If you are a member and you wish to have a particular vendor participate in the Group Buy list that isn't already on it, then you can contact them to ask them to sign up for the Group Buy vendor list. For any proposed Group Buy, we will have a due date for vendors to get on the Group Buy vendor list (if they're not already on it), and to submit their proposed terms for the Group Buy. The proposed terms need not be lengthy, but should include price, shipping terms (including international if applicable), return policy, any relevant exclusions (like no return policy, no internal shipping, etc.). Of course, within reason, the more completely the terms are spelled out, the better. Vendors on the Group Buy vendor list will not be told how their proposal stands against other proposals, and will only find out whether they were selected or not, after the due date, and after the winning proposal has been selected. For each Group Buy, the winner will be selected from the vendor proposals that were submitted prior to the due date. We reserve the right to choose the winning proposal based on our own subjective assessment of the proposals, and based on any number of factors, but with price as the most important single factor. For example, if a dealer we hadn't previously heard of proposes a widget price $100 and an established dealer proposes a widget price of $100, we reserve the right to choose the established dealer; if one dealer proposes $100 with no returns allowed, and another proposes $105 with a 30-day return policy, then we reserve the right to choose the latter offer; etc. After the winning proposal is selected by the Group Buy Coordinator and me, the winning vendor can post in the Group Buys sub-forum the information needed for the members to participate in the Group Buy. Of course, if doing so directly would violate any manufacturer or distributor pricing policy, then the Group Buy Coordinator or I may post the Group Buy information in the Group Buys sub-forum with the appropriate participation information for the members. This is tentative, but I feel confident that the final policies will be similar to what I stated above.

As for the E4c, I will contact several vendors to set up a Group Buy for them, posting the best deal I receive in the Group Buys Forum (note that I am currently the only Group Buy Coordinator, as we haven't appointed one yet).

 

[PinchyCM]

That's cool - do we know when this will happen? I'd like to get my hands on a set soon!

Not that I realllly need one right now.

 

[bLue_oNioN]

Jude -- Looking good, to have created such a policy out of scratch is impressive.

Some thoughts I had while reading that you may (or may not) want to take into consideration as the policy evolves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jude A Group Buys sub-forum will be created in Head-Fi's forums. This will be a fee-based area, where the vendor will pay a fee to have the Group Buy advertised if their proposal is chosen, as tentatively outlined in the points below (and so their proposal should factor in the cost of the announcement in the Group buys sub-forum), with Sponsors receiving a discounted rate to have their winning proposals posted in the Group Buys sub-forum.

Approximately how much will this fee be? Even a hundred dollar fee could offset any incentive for companies to make bids. Perhaps a system that takes into account the approximate value of the product would be more effective...? Just a thought =)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jude Vendors on the Group Buy vendor list will not be told how their proposal stands against other proposals, and will only find out whether they were selected or not, after the due date, and after the winning proposal has been selected.

As you have noted, price is the primary consideration when it comes to group buys. Why then, don't we make anonymous proposals visible so that there is competition between vendors to offer the best deal possible? When eBay bids are made, bidders are able to view bid history and continually pitch what they feel is a best offer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jude For each Group Buy, the winner will be selected from the vendor proposals that were submitted prior to the due date. We reserve the right to choose the winning proposal based on our own subjective assessment of the proposals, and based on any number of factors, but with price as the most important single factor.

How much transparency will there be when it comes to choosing the winning bid? If, for example, three companies submit bids, and one wins, will all proposals be revealed at the very end? You may want to specifically address this issue within the policy so that accusations of bias never arise.

Hope this helps, take care!

 

[mystique]

The group buy policy is reasonable.
At first sight, the word "fea-based" upset me a lot. A second thought told me it is for the long term benefit.

However, I wonder how much should be paid by a seller when his the group buy offer is accepted. If it is too much, then I suspect we will get any competitive offer at all.

Also, do we have options when selecting an offer? Someone's milk may be others' poison. And it seems only the coordinator has the right to choose from offers (depending on his likeness or dislikeness). Moreover, if the offer details are hidden from public, how do we know the final decision is the best one?

Just my 2c. (And English is not my native langauge.

)

 

[mystique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bLue_oNioN Jude -- Looking good, to have created such a policy out of scratch is impressive. Some thoughts I had while reading that you may (or may not) want to take into consideration as the policy evolves. Approximately how much will this fee be? Even a hundred dollar fee could offset any incentive for companies to make bids. Perhaps a system that takes into account the approximate value of the product would be more effective...? Just a thought =) As you have noted, price is the primary consideration when it comes to group buys. Why then, don't we make anonymous proposals visible so that there is competition between vendors to offer the best deal possible? When eBay bids are made, bidders are able to view bid history and continually pitch what they feel is a best offer. How much transparency will there be when it comes to choosing the winning bid? If, for example, three companies submit bids, and one wins, will all proposals be revealed at the very end? You may want to specifically address this issue within the policy so that accusations of bias never arise. Hope this helps, take care!

bLue_oNioN, shake hand.
I have the same concerns with yours.
In addition, just found I live in the same area with yours.

 

[gsferrari]

I am concerned about:

* Fee
* Bidding


If I make the effort of contacting a manufacturer and getting him to agree to a group buy - and then he realizes that he has to pay a fee and balks - that is a waste of my time and a missed opportunity for members interested in that product.

Again - I make the effort of organizing and then someone has the authority to say "NO" to my group buy because it didnt pass the bidding stage.

I dont know...the "Fee" will stop a lot of manufacturers and therefore a lot of members from getting a deal.

I think the admin has to remember that these deals have nothing to do with HeadFi. HeadFi is just a medium where the deals can be shared - it can neither claim "ownership" or demand a "fee" for something it had nothing to do with.

What I am saying is - if I contact a manufacturer, get a good deal for a group buy - I am not going to be too happy if HeadFi turns it down and stops me from spreading the word. If I cannot do it via HeadFi then I will have to find another way because "I" want the good price that the group buy will offer.

Or have I misunderstood the rules?

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari ....If I make the effort of contacting a manufacturer and getting him to agree to a group buy - and then he realizes that he has to pay a fee and balks - that is a waste of my time and a missed opportunity for members interested in that product....

Then the vendor won't be included. I'm not here to provide him with a free ad. If the risk that he balks is one you're not willing to undertake, then don't contact him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari ....Again - I make the effort of organizing and then someone has the authority to say "NO" to my group buy because it didnt pass the bidding stage....

Again, don't do it then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari ....I dont know...the "Fee" will stop a lot of manufacturers and therefore a lot of members from getting a deal....

Again, it's not my charge to give out free advertising to save everyone a few bucks if it undermines the very essence of the site's primary revenue source, and, thus, one of its key components of survival. You sell amps to the community. If it's not worth it to you, you don't ever have to buy an ad here. On the other hand, don't expect me to give you ads for free either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari ....I think the admin has to remember that these deals have nothing to do with HeadFi. HeadFi is just a medium where the deals can be shared - it can neither claim "ownership" or demand a "fee" for something it had nothing to do with....

This isn't about a claim of ownership. If you want to organize a group buy as you want to see it organized (not having it associated with a fee structure here), then organize it on another site that allows you to do it just as you wish to do it. Simple as that. But don't be surprised if the policy here then prevents you from promoting it here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari ....What I am saying is - if I contact a manufacturer, get a good deal for a group buy - I am not going to be too happy if HeadFi turns it down and stops me from spreading the word....

Then, again, don't waste your effort if the risk of it being turned down is going to tick you off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari ....If I cannot do it via HeadFi then I will have to find another way....

That's correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari ....Or have I misunderstood the rules?

No, actually, I think you're grasping the gist, only you don't like it. So, again, based on what you've said, I would recommend to you to not be a someone to seek out a vendor to participate, lest the choice of another vendor tick you off because you wasted so much time contacting him.

EDIT: I believe I've now been in contact with most of the vendors who were being contacted about the E4c group buys, and not one of them--not a single one of them--has complained to me about the intended thrust of the guidelines. Every single one I spoke with expressed agreement that having no guidelines was too messy, and was too open to the possibility of other Members of the Trade announcing their own group buys on the Main Forums. There are just too many dealers out there for this not to be a concern. One of the key vendors in this whole discussion contacted me today, in fact, and asked to become a Head-Fi Sponsor.

 

[gsferrari]

Jude - I am not talking about contacting a vendor! I am talking about contacting the manufacturer direct...like Grado, Shure, Sennheiser...without approaching a vendor at all.

There is a difference right?

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari Jude - I am not talking about contacting a vendor! I am talking about contacting the manufacturer direct...like Grado, Shure, Sennheiser...without approaching a vendor at all. There is a difference right?

First of all, I'd be shocked if a manufacturer would undermine its own dealers (assuming it's a manufacturer who depends on dealers, like Grado, Shure, Sennheiser) by organizing group buys through non-dealer Head-Fi Members.

And even if one of them would, which would surprise the heck out of me, then, yes, the group buy policies would apply to them, too.

 

[bg4533]

Jude,
Do these rules apply to DIY based group buys? These buys are often for specific things that are difficult to find. Our deals are very small compared to what many of the companies we deal with are used to and it will be uneconomical for them to even bother with us. How will group buys for circuit boards be handled?

 

[vranswer]

Well, I'm no friggin' genius, but it seems to me that the result of this policy will be upward pressure on 'Group Buy' prices. I'm not judging whether this is bad or not, just an observation. After all, vendors are entitled to appropriate margins, and this is an informational website at its core. HeadFi's mission is not to 'facilitate low prices' to its members. If the group buy concept can save us a few bucks, TERRIFIC. But I come here to learn, consider, argue, gritch, share, teach, etc. If I want the lowest possible price, I go to Wally World and deal with the trailer trash.

 

[meat01]

I was wondering about DIY group buys also. I feel the scenario with buying a bunch of enclosures from a manufacturing outfit does not really fit the vendor bid model as you outlined. I feel the same goes for PCBs, where it costs the same price to do 1 board or 100 boards.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bg4533 Jude, Do these rules apply to DIY based group buys? These buys are often for specific things that are difficult to find. Our deals are very small compared to what many of the companies we deal with are used to and it will be uneconomical for them to even bother with us. How will group buys for circuit boards be handled?

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat01 I was wondering about DIY group buys also. I feel the scenario with buying a bunch of enclosures from a manufacturing outfit does not really fit the vendor bid model as you outlined. I feel the same goes for PCBs, where it costs the same price to do 1 board or 100 boards.

Actually, as I mentioned in my policies draft post above, we are discussing exemptions, and how to define which ones pay fees, etc. We're working on it. We understand some sort of group buys will have to be handled differently, for example for some of the reasons you stated, and that should be covered in the final first version.

 

[gsferrari]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jude First of all, I'd be shocked if a manufacturer would undermine its own dealers (assuming it's a manufacturer who depends on dealers, like Grado, Shure, Sennheiser) by organizing group buys through non-dealer Head-Fi Members. And even if one of them would, which would surprise the heck out of me, then, yes, the group buy policies would apply to them, too.

That makes sense. But I think Alessandro have obliged in the past. A few of us are discussing Eastsound for the E5 CDP group buy.