[thievesarmy]

What's a "d-bag"?

Is it like a tea bag? We have plenty of those here in the UK, Earl Grey being one of my favourites, but I get the impression you aren't referring to a hot beverage...or are you?

....and what's your game here?

Omg Earl Grey is my favorite too!!! What's your preferred brand? I am currently drinking Mighty Leaf but Harneys is also a fav.

*adds cb3723 to buddy list and rushes to Tea-Fi thread*

 

[cb3723]

Omg Earl Grey is my favorite too!!! What's your preferred brand? I am currently drinking Mighty Leaf but Harneys is also a fav.

*adds cb3723 to buddy list and rushes to Tea-Fi thread*

Numi organic

 

[Dragonzeanse]

I find it ridiculous that OP doesn't want people recommending equipment they don't own anymore. Not everyone wants a ton of hardware sitting around their house going unused. What if they actually put several hundreds of hours into multiple headphones and then went out and bought Stax SR-009, clearing their inventory shortly after? Suddenly, they aren't qualified to make recommendations? Give me a break. Nevermind the fact that a lot of help threads never even go answered, let alone by any more than one person.
 
I've spent many hours auditioning different headphones and I think that it smacks of short-sightedness to invalidate my opinion because I didn't pay money for them. I'm fully capable of understanding the value of a dollar.
 
And I know this might seem like I'm moving the goalpost, but are you going to suggest the rest of the audiophile communities across the internet stop doing the same? How about r/headphones? Yeah, good luck with that.
 
It's kind of unfair for people who know next to nothing about a headphone to suggest it, but it's equally unfair to suggest that they can't point them to a review. Even more absurd is when you suggest they have to own these headphones just to say "yes, they're good."
 
Now, to the OP's credit, there's a lot of people who flat-out don't know what they're talking about. I've come from audio subforums on PC gaming websites and the advice given and received was often poorly researched or based completely on some misinterpretation of the thread's criteria. More to the point, a lot of these people were just parroting suggestions (ATH-M50s, anyone?). Rules against suggesting headphones you have no experience with exist to combat this nonsense. It's the spirit of the rule - not the letter - that matters. The person in need of help is coming to the experts requesting assistance, but the responsibility of doing research falls on them all the same - arguably more, considering it's their money. Consumers should be informed no matter what they're buying.
 
But hey, someone will come along and refute my argument with some long-winded version of the word "nope." Might even be forum staff.

 

[imackler]

Everyone should be limited to 3 posts a day. Make them count! 

 

[thievesarmy]

  I find it ridiculous that OP doesn't want people recommending equipment they don't own anymore. Not everyone wants a ton of hardware sitting around their house going unused. What if they actually put several hundreds of hours into multiple headphones and then went out and bought Stax SR-009, clearing their inventory shortly after? Suddenly, they aren't qualified to make recommendations? Give me a break. Nevermind the fact that a lot of help threads never even go answered, let alone by any more than one person.
 
I've spent many hours auditioning different headphones and I think that it smacks of short-sightedness to invalidate my opinion because I didn't pay money for them. I'm fully capable of understanding the value of a dollar.
 
And I know this might seem like I'm moving the goalpost, but are you going to suggest the rest of the audiophile communities across the internet stop doing the same? How about r/headphones? Yeah, good luck with that.
 
It's kind of unfair for people who know next to nothing about a headphone to suggest it, but it's equally unfair to suggest that they can't point them to a review. Even more absurd is when you suggest they have to own these headphones just to say "yes, they're good."
 
Now, to the OP's credit, there's a lot of people who flat-out don't know what they're talking about. I've come from audio subforums on PC gaming websites and the advice given and received was often poorly researched or based completely on some misinterpretation of the thread's criteria. More to the point, a lot of these people were just parroting suggestions (ATH-M50s, anyone?). Rules against suggesting headphones you have no experience with exist to combat this nonsense. It's the spirit of the rule - not the letter - that matters. The person in need of help is coming to the experts requesting assistance, but the responsibility of doing research falls on them all the same - arguably more, considering it's their money. Consumers should be informed no matter what they're buying.
 
But hey, someone will come along and refute my argument with some long-winded version of the word "nope." Might even be forum staff.

 
I agree. I spend a lot of time in the 'Intros & Recommendation's' forum because I'm pretty sympathetic to new people coming here and being overwhelmed, and just trying to find some general guidance. I think we may take it for granted but for a total newb coming here, the sheer amount of different forums, not to mention all the different headphones & gear being talked about in shorthand can be REALLY confusing… I remember when I first came and saw what seemed like everyone referring to headphones by their model, not brand… I was like, HD 600, HE 600, HD 650, HD 598, HE 500… jesus h!!! What are you guys talking about?? What is all this stuff??
 
So anyways, as you mentioned, many of those intro recommendation threads go completely unanswered, and I know from first hand experience how frustrating that was to me at first. So, on occasion I may SUGGEST to someone they research or look into a certain headphone, while also clearly stating that I haven't heard it myself. To me, I would have been happy just to get pointed in a direction at that point, and I think many newb's feel the same. If they disagree, I have clearly stated that I haven't heard it and they can completely disregard my suggestion if they want. 

 

[cb3723]

I think this video resolves all issues brought up in this thread quite neatly and nicely.....​

[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/27a-vs_nebk[/VIDEO]​

or this poor kids head has been manipulated by reading too many online audiophiles opinions and the internet should be shut down in the interests of child safeguarding measures ​

And if you hate on beats cans and wish they would die - don't worry, looks like Apple are going to do this themselves, and it's only been 5mins since they paid billions for the privilege to do so.....


[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/sbE3rqkE17U[/VIDEO]


I'd like to hear the OP's views on all this but I'm not waiting another decade for him to get his finger out, and besides - what if he just replied with just, "lol"...........!? ​

 

[orl2222]

Has the industry grown since I Joined? Yes by leaps and bounds. More choices are always a good thing. Me being an old member, what would I recommend for a newbee  getting into this hobby? go back to the basics! get a good source first, like a decent CD player at home. plenty of them on ebay.
Yes I know CD's are foreign to the younger crowd raised on digital downloads, and yes there is no more Tower Record stores.
 
Then for cans I would recommend a pair of Grado 60 or 80's. Why? price point for starters. Also get a good little amp to hookup to your transport. I know a lot of choices out there now, but I wouldn't get caught up on all the graphs or number of hookups it has,  simple RCA jack connects are fine.
 
Portables? that's a different story. What do I use currently? a ipod mini.
 
Am I snobbish about equipment? not at all. In fact the portable cans that I use currently are Bose OE2's.
 
Also go to a local meet, or arrange a local meet in your area. Back in the day, a meet was maybe 10 people at most bringing their equipment with them, and going to get pizza for dinner. Arranging a little local meet can give you a chance to listen and learn.
 
 
 
Do I own ulta high end uber gear? not even.
 
Above all don't get caught up in all the hype! Be your own judge on what sounds good.
 
Oh. and a reminder, age can provide wisdom, but also your hearing degrades with age. ( trust me on that )
 
Yup. I have the Sony CE player, my second one got a refurbished one a couple of years a go for 49.00

 

[moriez]

 

 
Wait a minute. You've pulled some things out of context. Unless there's a hidden post OP is unhappy about two things:
 
- How can someone recommend something - a headphone, a DAP, a DAC, an amp or even a cable without even trying it?  How can they dismiss it? 
- Please don't make a headphone recommendation to someone if you have not owned the headphone in question.  Listening to something in a store or at a meet does not qualify you as experienced with that item. 
 
There is no mention of people who have auditioned for hundreds of hours or that one has to have paid for them. Neither did he say no one can point a new guy to a review. He just stated the above.

 

[Dragonzeanse]

   
Wait a minute. You've pulled some things out of context. Unless there's a hidden post OP is unhappy about two things:
 
- How can someone recommend something - a headphone, a DAP, a DAC, an amp or even a cable without even trying it?  How can they dismiss it? 
- Please don't make a headphone recommendation to someone if you have not owned the headphone in question.  Listening to something in a store or at a meet does not qualify you as experienced with that item.

Bold part is what I was addressing. The first excerpt creates confusion; I'm not sure where the OP stands on it. If he's alright with that sort of thing, then I would probably backtrack on my argument. Still, there's a notion going around that to have the qualifications to talk about something, you have to have paid money for it.
 
Tyll didn't pay for the Ultrasone Edition 10s and I haven't noticed anyone ripping him apart for that. He's a qualified headphone reviewer, yes, but what makes someone qualified? Having heard a lot of audio products? I might not have listened to as many as Mr. Reed Viewer, but I have had my fair share to the point that I know what I'm talking about.
 
At the point that we start talking about the difference between suggesting someone look at something and then suggesting they buy it, however, examples are necessary. The line is somewhat blurry because someone might be trying to suggest indirectly to buy something, or vice-versa.
 
It's a finnicky subject, but I think we can all agree that some guy who just bought ATH-M50s isn't qualified to go around telling people what to buy regardless of criteria.

 

[Currawong]

  Many of these complaints are well-founded and IMO the entire Head-Fi community should be paying attention, but more importantly we all should be trying to make changes to this community so that Head-Fi can be held up as a genuinely useful resource.
 
Here are some points I feel we should consider.
 
1. More moderators, especially people who have shown that they can control themselves and keep the forum a FAIR and ENJOYABLE place.
 
2. EVERYONE has their CURRENT gear in their profile.  At least this will help identify those who are parroting information or just plain trolling.
 
3. (I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread) There should be a "vote to remove post" on threads.  Once a post receives enough votes it is placed on a list for Moderators to remove. (I assume that is the same as report post?)
 
4. Allow posting in a product thread by HF members only at the release of the product, prior to that a separate speculation thread can be created for loose discussion and only the MOT can post in product thread.
- IMO this would bring some order to the chaos before a product's release, making it MUCH easier to find accurate information on the item and would give people the option to ignore the speculations of impatient people.
 
5. Short-term thread bans for individuals who are identified as trolling, taking things OT, being abusive, forcing their opinions onto others continually in an unwanted manner.
 
6. Have pre-defined threads (possibly sub-threads) for individual products (e.g. HD800 Discussion | HD800 Amplifier Recommendations | HD800 Modifications) ....this relates to number 5 above.
 
 
These are just ideas I am throwing out there, they may help...who knows?
 
I just want to read about people trying to get the most out of their setups, but I also prefer people to call a spade a spade.  There will ALWAYS be hyperbole and fanboys and clashes of scientific/experiential opinion.  I think it just comes down to how we manage these things so that they don't detract too much from the useful content within this forum, without which I would not be able to enjoy this hobby to the level I currently do.

 
Setting pre-defined threads for every product would be a PITA. So far we've settled on a main thread and and an impressions thread for popular products, such as the Oppo PM-1. Appreciation threads generally aren't allowed any longer and are re-named impressions threads most of the time. This is because we found people would get upset when someone had negative impressions of a pair of headphones. 
 
For 5: We do that already.  Speaking of...
 

 

 
1. More moderators, especially people who have shown that they can control themselves and keep the forum a FAIR and ENJOYABLE place.
 
2. EVERYONE has their CURRENT gear in their profile.  At least this will help identify those who are parroting information or just plain trolling.
 
3. (I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread) There should be a "vote to remove post" on threads.  Once a post receives enough votes it is placed on a list for Moderators to remove. (I assume that is the same as report post?)

 
I'm picking on these three, so forgive me.
 
I've been "short term banned" already. You wanna know what my offense was? I got in an incredibly minor argument with someone in the Beats thread. I didn't use any vulgarity, I didn't call them anything offensive. Literally, this post got me BANNED FOR A $%@#$ING WEEK:

 
We don't discuss moderation on the forums, but since it has spun a conversation, let me clarify things for everyone else: You were banned after you were warned 4 times respectively for a: calling another member a "ignorant pseudo-audiophile.", b: telling another member they were "trying too hard", c: describing someone's comments as "dumber and dumber" and calling a member a "dingbat". All those were abusive comments, however you wish to take it. We don't allow that here.
 
So, public 5th warning this time: Read the Posting Guidelines AGAIN and make sure you are clear what is cool here and what isn't. Arguing about moderation is not, which includes replying to this. 

 

[Currawong]

 

   
That is one thing that bugs me: To some, manufacturers (who, in private, go to great lengths to accurately research, test and measure their products before selling them) are evil and deceptive but people with un-verified and sometimes downright suspect equipment can accurately measure headphones or other equipment from which inexpert sweeping conclusions are perfectly valid. *COUGH*

 
The blind faith thing always amuses (and at times saddens me). Graphs are a lot like the EPA ratings on cars. Sure it's empirical data but "your mileage may vary".
 
One thing that always piqued my interest was Joe talking about graphing the Abyss in development and then deciding to essentially ignore the data as the phone, tuned properly did not generate a graph that was ahem, appealing. That from a manufacturer.
 
Now when you enter into the fray folk who's equipment is essentially an unknown, how much stock do you want to put in it?

 
I wouldn't put any stock in measurements from a phone, if that is what happened. When you get measurements that are very off-looking, you then go and get different equipment to test and find out whether it is the thing you are measuring or the thing doing the measuring that is off. You don't put stock in one measurement any more than you put stock in a single person's impressions IMO.

 

[Audio Jester]

   
I'm picking on these three, so forgive me.
 
I've been "short term banned" already. You wanna know what my offense was? I got in an incredibly minor argument with someone in the Beats thread. I didn't use any vulgarity, I didn't call them anything offensive. Literally, this post got me BANNED FOR A $%@#$ING WEEK:
 
Point 2 would just show current gear, not all gear ever, and it doesn't include what people have used and tried but didn't buy. So basically you'd be accusing someone of trolling if they owned headphone X for a month and sold it because they couldn't stand how it sounded, or if they've done test driving with them. 
 
Point 3 would turn this forum into a place where it's impossible to speak out against the hivemind. If you have an unpopular opinion it would be decimated by the fanboys and bombard the mod queue would be CRAMMED with nonsense

 
No forgiveness needed SomeGuyDude. I totally agree with your first point which is why it would be good if there was some way that you could be notified that a particular post has been voted enough times by other HF members for it to be placed on the "Remove this post" list.  At that point there are no moderators involved AND the individual who placed that post would be able to go back and edit it or remove it themselves.  Please keep in mind as well that I am only talking about a temporary Thread Ban, not a forum ban.  So it would not stop you from accessing the rest of the forum. 
 
Re Point 2:  I only said "Current Gear" as a minimum, if someone wants to display all their gear including previously owned stuff, then go right ahead.  Please keep in mind that it is an aid more than anything else so that if someone is throwing around comments that seem Trollish then you can check their profile to see if they are on the level.  This will not be a fix for those who are deliberately Trolling, but will help keep honest people honest.

 
Re point 3:  This is a very serious problem and I totally agree.  There are some aspects to running a forum that is funded by sponsors which make things complicated, but I agree that if you dislike a product that you have properly tested then you should be able to voice that opinion, otherwise this forum loses it's credibility and overall usefullness.  In saying that I have seen it happen time and time again when someone has tried a product for a limited amount of time with only one setup and they have made it their mission to shout-down anyone else who finds that product enjoyable.  This is where a warning or two would go well, possibly followed by a Thread Ban.  This is not to silence them (because it is only temporary), but it gives the conversation some space to expand beyond one person's tirade.
 

  There is literally a TON of objective data that we can use to determine product quality. Going even further: it is the PRIMARY thing we should look at when judging a product's quality.

I think this is an important point as well.  IMO the measurments of a HP should be "stickied" to the forum so that it can be quickly found and referred to.  We need these sorts of measurements to help form a relative scale within the forum.  We are all different and my understanding of "strong bass" could be completely different to yours, so anything that helps define a point of reference would be really useful.
 

   
Setting pre-defined threads for every product would be a PITA. So far we've settled on a main thread and and an impressions thread for popular products, such as the Oppo PM-1. Appreciation threads generally aren't allowed any longer and are re-named impressions threads most of the time. This is because we found people would get upset when someone had negative impressions of a pair of headphones. 

I respect that Currawong, I have been a moderator myself in another forum so I can appreciate how difficult things can be, in saying that creating pre-defined threads would not be out of the question particularly when it comes to headphones.  If there were enough Mods to do the job you could have a situation where one (or however many) is watching over the Full Size headphone thread.  Once a new headphone is mentioned then those three threads that I gave as an example could be made.  I agree that it would be a PITA, but if there were more Mods it would make the job easier.
 
As I said before if we can have some kind of "Vote to Remove Post" button that will (after an agreed number of votes) automatically send a warning to the individual who made that post, this way the Mods don't have to get involved straight away and it gives the indivdual the chance to fix or delete their post before they get an official warning (or banning) by a Mod.  This would help make the forum more "self policing" and would reduce the amount of work required by Mods.
 
Hey, I'm just one person I am sure that other people (particularly those with more coding knowledge than me) could come up with better and more effective ideas.  Some ideas we can steal from other forums, like another audio site that I am on that has an entire section dedicated to "recommend me a ...." .  I'm just putting ideas out there, but I do feel we need to address the overarching issues in the thread.

 

[Hutnicks]

   
I wouldn't put any stock in measurements from a phone, if that is what happened. When you get measurements that are very off-looking, you then go and get different equipment to test and find out whether it is the thing you are measuring or the thing doing the measuring that is off. You don't put stock in one measurement any more than you put stock in a single person's impressions IMO.

True. Where things really suffer in headphone audio is a true lack of standardized tools. Also there does not seem to be any real standard test scenarios for calibrations. BEFORE you go sticking your shiny new phones on the test rig you really should set up a pair of previously measured phones and check the calibration.

 

[Brooko]

  I find it ridiculous that OP doesn't want people recommending equipment they don't own anymore. Not everyone wants a ton of hardware sitting around their house going unused. What if they actually put several hundreds of hours into multiple headphones and then went out and bought Stax SR-009, clearing their inventory shortly after? Suddenly, they aren't qualified to make recommendations? Give me a break. Nevermind the fact that a lot of help threads never even go answered, let alone by any more than one person.
 
I've spent many hours auditioning different headphones and I think that it smacks of short-sightedness to invalidate my opinion because I didn't pay money for them. I'm fully capable of understanding the value of a dollar.
 
And I know this might seem like I'm moving the goalpost, but are you going to suggest the rest of the audiophile communities across the internet stop doing the same? How about r/headphones? Yeah, good luck with that.
 
It's kind of unfair for people who know next to nothing about a headphone to suggest it, but it's equally unfair to suggest that they can't point them to a review. Even more absurd is when you suggest they have to own these headphones just to say "yes, they're good."
 
Now, to the OP's credit, there's a lot of people who flat-out don't know what they're talking about. I've come from audio subforums on PC gaming websites and the advice given and received was often poorly researched or based completely on some misinterpretation of the thread's criteria. More to the point, a lot of these people were just parroting suggestions (ATH-M50s, anyone?). Rules against suggesting headphones you have no experience with exist to combat this nonsense. It's the spirit of the rule - not the letter - that matters. The person in need of help is coming to the experts requesting assistance, but the responsibility of doing research falls on them all the same - arguably more, considering it's their money. Consumers should be informed no matter what they're buying.
 
But hey, someone will come along and refute my argument with some long-winded version of the word "nope." Might even be forum staff.

 
The OP specifically said has owned - he didn't say "does own" or "currently own".  The difference between auditioning a headphone and owning a headphone can be huge.  I'll give you an example I've used before - it's at the extreme end - but it does highlight why spending considerable time with a headphone can give a more accurate opinion (bearing in mind that this is all just opinion and is subjective to a persons particular tastes).
 
This was originally in response to a debate on burn-in:

I have personally found no audible effect of mechanical break-in with any of the headphones I've owned - but then again, I wasn't expecting any.  I have found that at first listen - I may find a headphone's sonic signature to be strange (not what I'm used to) - but after a while listening to it (and only it). my wonderful brain adjusts it's expectations - and the sound changes.  This is an easy experiment to do - especially for owners of multiple headphones.  Take you headphones with the most 'different' sonic signatures.  Listen to one for a few hours.  Now switch to the second - note immediate reactions - but keep listening to the second (again for as much time - hours - as possible) - then switch back to the first again.  Write down your observations.
 
Switching from HD600 to SR325i to HD600.
 

1. HD600 initially sounds spacious, textured, natural - incredible timbre.  No sign of veil.  Switch to 325i ......
2. 325i sounds narrow, overly bright. harsh even.  After some time with it - it sounds energetic, highs are enticing, everything sounds alive and brilliantly clear - not harsh in the slightest.  Don't notice the narrow stage as much any more.  Bass is tight and accurate and a lot of fun.  Switch back to HD600 after 2 hours ......
3. HD600 sounds slow, dull, distant.  Bass is boomy.

 
Give it a couple of hours - and then the HD600 returns back to the first bullet point again.  I know this is an extreme example - but it highlights the reality of our brain's impact on perceived sonic changes.  Have the headphones changed over the 5-6 hours listening ....... no - both my cans would be considered well broken in by now.  So how can the change be so 'night and day' ........ 

 
Above in a nutshell is why short term impressions, meet impressions, and not spending hours (or preferably days) with audio gear before posting a review or advice on them is IMO not a good idea.  Your post could influence their buying decision.  Sometimes the potential money outlay we're talking is considerable.
 
The other thing I do suggest is to make sure people know what your gear is, what your listening preferences are, what your biases and limitations are.
 
That's why when I review any gear now I try and leave a baseline about what gear I've owned, what my preferences are, and how my reviews can be construed.  I also tend to look for the same when researching a headphone.

 

[Currawong]

 

   
I wouldn't put any stock in measurements from a phone, if that is what happened. When you get measurements that are very off-looking, you then go and get different equipment to test and find out whether it is the thing you are measuring or the thing doing the measuring that is off. You don't put stock in one measurement any more than you put stock in a single person's impressions IMO.

True. Where things really suffer in headphone audio is a true lack of standardized tools. Also there does not seem to be any real standard test scenarios for calibrations. BEFORE you go sticking your shiny new phones on the test rig you really should set up a pair of previously measured phones and check the calibration.

 
That is one thing a lot of people don't realise. Actually, a lot of people don't realise that science isn't a magic arbiter of truth. Not picking on him (also because I know he'll find his name and see this) but Tyll has made mistakes in his measurements, such as not getting a perfect seal with IEMs or headphones and getting results that were out of whack. The thing is, he not only realises his own limitations but is seeking to do better with what he does. I've sadly seen people take things he said, distort them and declare, in effect "Tyll said it, so it is universally true." I've also had people distort the things I say and I thankfully learned early on to be conservative with my comments and add caveats where they are important. I also encourage people to do the same.
 
Though sometimes we do get fantastic gear and we just have to get a bit excited at how much we are enjoying stuff.