[Budgie]

I would presume that if I am buying anything from someone other then the original manufacturer, or a retail outlet of the manufacturer, there is a possability that the box has been opened and the device may have been touched and handled.
(actually, there is no promise of an item not being previously opened, even at the retail level! It is not uncommon for an item to be opened and then reshrink wrapped, at the retail level. Thats why some manufacturers have gone to a seal sticker on packages.)

So...

If this person wants a sealed box, he should be buying from Grado, not from Tuberoller. If the phones are in new condition with the original box and paperwork, whats the difference?

Do we need to place a heading in the For sale and trade area explaining that "The object you purchase may be a used object."?

 

[flashbak]

Well folks I'm the buyer, and I'll let my integrity with my sales I've done both here as well as Audiogon speak for me! I'm a little taken back by the fact that tuberoller has brought this public! Let me clarify a few things from my point of view.
Within a few hours of my purchase all tuberoller's transactions included free shipping, hence I inquired if that also applied to me since I had already payed for the item including shipping via paypal. He replied back that he would refund me back my shipping charge. The problem was only discovered because he had neglected to email me with a tracking number that he had promised to do. Last night I emailed him as well as PM'ed him asking what the status was of the order since I had not heard anything further from him with regard to a tracking number. It was his reply to that email when he first disclosed that the item had been opened and the warranty card had already been sent in to Grado. Sorry, but to me this is not the correct way to do business! I as well as others here have taken this to mean that 'New in box' means exactly that! Unopened. I don't think it was unreasonable for me to be disappointed with the way this was handled by tuberoller! You're told 'new in a box never used', and then after the item ships and is on it's way to you the seller discloses he has opened the box and sent in the warranty card. Furthermore, I wouldn't have known this fact had it not been for my recent correspondance with him because of the tracking number issue. Tuberoller has offered me the option of a refund which is reasonable of him and I'm considering it. My whole point being that the deal wasn't as good as I originally thought it to be since the box had already been opened and the warranty card filled out and sent in. That folks is not 'new in box' to me! Obviously, we each have a different interpretation of what new denotes. As has been said here, I adhere to Ebay's definition of new in a box and assumed other's did also. The ad might have better read 'Open box, Grado SR-325's, warranty card filled out and sent in, but phones have never been used. Then again I don't blame him for not doing so since it would have certainly sounded fishy to me! I'm still awaiting these phones. BTW, thanks for some of the kind words!

 

[ChenaynayC]

Well ... sounds like a misunderstanding that would have occurred sooner or later based on everyone's interpretation of 'new in box'. There were quite a few responses that saw it both ways. What makes this forum a nice place to come is that I'm pretty sure the two parties will handle it as such and find a mutually agreeable recourse.

Of course the best part is future buyers and sellers will benefit by clarifying their expectations in future transactions, and we'll all have grown! Group Hug

 

[M Rael]

I almost want flashbak to return the headphones so I can see how tuberoller will describe them in his next sale.. 'sold twice but new and unused!' Seriously though, audiogon has a great system of resolving disputes and it involves getting opinions from the members there, so (I) dont fault tuberoller for making it public. Its been educational and informative. Asking for free shipping was fine, given the circumstances, and I dont blame flashbak for wanting that at all. It didnt hurt to ask, and he got what he wanted. Lots of people state if their box has never been opened in the ad they make (it usually boosts the prestige of the item.) Some do not. Certainly, 'new condition' is very different than 'new' (per the die cast car example below.) There shouldnt be anger, flashbak. Just ask for your money back if you are not happy. No need for drama! If you are not satisfied and you get a refund then thats a POSITIVE thing, in my experience. If you feel a sense of damage beyond that, assuming you ask for a refund and get one, then you..
(I wont continue because it isnt flattering.)

 

[DanG]

Based on Flash's post (and the fact that I know him to be an honest and very nice guy) I take back what I wrote. I think that the whole issue is a whole lot clearer when both sides present the story -- and I think both sides have some valid arguments, though I must say I certainly got the wrong idea from Tube's original post.

Flash, I'm sorry for what I wrote -- I didn't know the whole story. I hope you'll accept my apology for passing judgment before knowing what was going on.

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

If the phones are in new condition with the original box and paperwork, whats the difference?

The warranty card had been filled out and sent in. That's not something normally done with a product that is "New and unused".

I have about 60 1/18 scale metal cars which I removed from their display boxes and had on display on shelves in glass-doored cabinets for about six months. When I moved, I carefully replaced each one in it's original box, packed them in large cartons, and put them in storage where they are today.

There are no children in my house and the cars have not been handled....they simply sat on display, untouched behind glass for six months. They, and their boxes, look just like the day I bought them....five years ago.

Do they then qualify as "New in box"? They meet the criteria above.

 

[andrzejpw]

Happen to have a skyline in there?

No, of course not, they are not considered to be NIB. I subscribe to the ebay NIB method. If its open, its not new. Now, this may seem to be a bit unfair, but its just to avoid confusion. Now, to me, tuberoller is a VERY trusted member. Heck, if I had a choice, I'd try to get the item from him.

 

[Tuberoller]

Quote:

Originally posted by flashbak Well folks I'm the buyer, and I'll let my integrity with my sales I've done both here as well as Audiogon speak for me! I'm a little taken back by the fact that tuberoller has brought this public! Let me clarify a few things from my point of view. Within a few hours of my purchase all tuberoller's transactions included free shipping, hence I inquired if that also applied to me since I had already payed for the item including shipping via paypal. He replied back that he would refund me back my shipping charge. The problem was only discovered because he had neglected to email me with a tracking number that he had promised to do. Last night I emailed him as well as PM'ed him asking what the status was of the order since I had not heard anything further from him with regard to a tracking number. It was his reply to that email when he first disclosed that the item had been opened and the warranty card had already been sent in to Grado. Sorry, but to me this is not the correct way to do business! I as well as others here have taken this to mean that 'New in box' means exactly that! Unopened. I don't think it was unreasonable for me to be disappointed with the way this was handled by tuberoller! You're told 'new in a box never used', and then after the item ships and is on it's way to you the seller discloses he has opened the box and sent in the warranty card. Furthermore, I wouldn't have known this fact had it not been for my recent correspondance with him because of the tracking number issue. Tuberoller has offered me the option of a refund which is reasonable of him and I'm considering it. My whole point being that the deal wasn't as good as I originally thought it to be since the box had already been opened and the warranty card filled out and sent in. That folks is not 'new in box' to me! Obviously, we each have a different interpretation of what new denotes. As has been said here, I adhere to Ebay's definition of new in a box and assumed other's did also. The ad might have better read 'Open box, Grado SR-325's, warranty card filled out and sent in, but phones have never been used. Then again I don't blame him for not doing so since it would have certainly sounded fishy to me! I'm still awaiting these phones. BTW, thanks for some of the kind words!

I accept your notion of "new" and feel that this entire thing was my fault.I made this public(while not discloing your ID) only to gauge the opinion of my friends at head-fi since this sale was originated on the forums here.In an effort to make my desciption of the phones brief I did not clearly state that the box had been opened.Upon reflection I understand that a more complete description was warranted.

I offered apologies to flashbak via email and I will do so here as well.My original post was by no means intended to defame flashbak(especially since I would never have mentioned his name had he not responded openly).In the very first line of the first email I sent to flashbak I offered a full refund including paypal expenses and return shipping.I never doubted he was upset but he used the terms "unethical" and " a play on words" to describe my brief description of the phones in the ad, which I found to be a bit harsh.I have sold lots of gear including amplifiers and turntables costing thousands of dollars,I have no real motive for cheating anybody out of the $174.00 that I made from these phones.Flashbak immeditely responded with the accusation that I had been dishonest.throughout this sale I have been more than resonable.I refunded the shipping,I shipped with his choice of carrier,I ate the paypal charges,and I shipped the phones promptly(within 30 hours of payment actually) as promised.I answered his emails promptly as well.I didn't get right back to him with the tracking numbers because I shipped 17 items at the same time I shipped the phones and all the tracking numbers were stuck to single shipping receipt and I had to track each one to figure out which was his.I had to work at my job the next day and didn't get back to him as fast as he would have liked I guess.the total time from the time he paid me until the time I got back to him with a tracking number showing that the phones had been shipped was four days.I think I did my best to accomodate flashbak.I see no other resolution but to refund his money in full.

Thanks,
Fred

 

[Jeff Guidry]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberoller In this case I think a full refund, including return shipping, is warranted.I see it as the only way to clear my consious and reputation here. I'll add that I have never sent out any item without first opening the box.If I sent out a component and the buyer found something to be missing(like a remote)then I am sure he would blame me for not checking.This has happened before.When I ship tube gear I always open and test it before I ship it out.Most of my dealer friends do the same thing. This kind of thing strongly discourages me from doing business via the net or over the phone.On top of having gear stolen from me,I deal with people who want large discounts based on their perceptions of what I should make on a sale.I hate to complain on an open forum about this type of thing but the small profits I make doing this are really not worth the headaches involved.I need to reflect on this for a while.

I think the root of the issue here is the chance you are taking with e-commerce. As any of us who have spent any reasonable amount of time on Ebay know, there are many unscrupulous sellers who will send you something that is certainly not in the condition it was advertised as being in. If I was in flashbak's position, I certainly would have felt that Tuberoller was attempting to change the deal after he had my money, given some of my prior experiences.

You've already gotten loads of good advice, but permit me to offer mine: if you sell on the internet, it is IMPOSSIBLE to over-communicate. If you need to craft a several page statement of purpose to email each buyer before they send in their money, do so. Make sure they read and understand what your policies are, and make sure they know what you mean by what you say, clearly and unambiguously.

I understand your profit margins are thin, but the best policy is to refund first, ask questions later.

And above all, communicate, communicate, communicate! Don't send one email when ten would do. Yeah, people are beginning to perceive email communication as a hassle, and it is difficult to get anyone to respond in a reasonable amount of time to even the simplest of queries. But the more you communicate, the more confidence your buyer has in you, so that even if the deal goes bad, they feel that you are listening. There is nothing more terrifying for a buyer than when a seller ignores their questions.

 

[flashbak]

tuberoller,
You have once again made inaccurate statements regarding my response to you in this matter. However, I don't have the time or inclination to deal further with correcting your statements! I have decided not to do business with you, and have already sent you a request for refund to my paypal account ASAP. So please feel free to put your 'new in box' SR-325's back up for sale. I will ship back the phones once I've received them.

 

[Ari]

Come on guys, make a phone call and shake hands.

Best from

Ari

 

[mbriant]

Jeff Guidry: You make some excellent points. Despite the conflict which inspired this whole thread, it should be a positive influence on future sale/trade transactions.

The buyer is always the one taking all the risk in these sort of transactions because he's the one making the leap of faith and paying the money up front. He must rely solely on the info/description given by the seller....and be trusting that the seller will come through.

Like Jeff Guidry says, you can't give too much information.

 

[Jeff Guidry]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ari Come on guys, make a phone call and shake hands. Best from Ari

Or PM. I don't think that this drama should have played out here on a thread, really, and I think from this point on they should talk about this privately.

 

[flashbak]

Jeff,
I agree with your statements, but found it extremely difficult to just sit still while being accused by a number of folks who just didn't have all the facts!

 

[Tuberoller]

This matter has been resolved in the form of a complete reimbursement to flashbak.I have apologized to flashbak for the problems encountered from my inaccurate listing.I still don't understand why he chose to accused me of being a cheat before he even had a chance to talk with me about this but that is his right as a buyer.He is indeed the person who took the leap when this purchase was made and I fully understand his frustration.I have not mistated in any way my dealings with flashbak and feel that his accusations,public and private are far,far more harsh than any reality that may have occured.He still has not recieved the phones yet,but I have refunded his money plus paypal expenses.I'm sorry that he has chosen to insult me in this thread when I only asked the opinions of others about this because of my inexperience in dealing with such matters and the fact that I value the opinions of the head-fi community.Thanks all for your input.I knew that I would get a balanced,fair response here and I learned some valuable lessons.


Edit:Flashbak still continues to say that I have been dishonest in this matter and has stated that my descripitions of his responses is false.I stand by all that I have said here regarding this transaction from start to finish.I never intended any dishonesty and I still don't see how anyone could interpret my less than one line decription as being anything other than inaccurate,or incomplete.I am not a liar or a cheat and I take very strong offense to being continuously labeled as such by flashbak.His responses during this transaction have been depicted in an accurate fashion by me and I am willing to forward any and all correspondance to prove this.