[castleofargh]

  Ok, I can accept that  FR might muddy the soundstage, but not create it or destroy it, so tomatos after all.

we get a feeling of soundstage from many cues, frequency response, and loudness certainly are part of it along with delays and overal sound fidelity. also how important they are will depend on how bad is everything else.
when our visual cues corroborate sound, the sound itself doesn't need to be amazing, as our brain prioritizes visual cues. so we can still end up with something pretty convincing most of the time. when we have no visual cues at all and when turning the head also moves the source of the sound

, the brain is already in a "what'chu talkin'bout?" situation. so we try to construct a space with whatever else is left to use. and that's not much when it comes to spacial cues, as even timing cues were manufactured to work with speakers for the vast majority of recordings.
warmer signature could be explained as a sound further away, really muddy could feel like coming from behind some obstacle. but at the same time, low frequencies are hard to locate in space for us, while higher frequencies are easier to pinpoint. then there is all the HRTF thing mentioned above.
 
so FR can play a bunch of roles related to imaging. but it's only one component of sound and while we have a hard time getting a perfectly clear understanding of soundstage in an ideal situation(because subjective stuff will be subjective), trying to guess which's most important in a dysfunctional sound source like a headphone, that's not something I'm ready to do ^_^.

 

[BiggerHead]

I'm sorry, I meant to say the left right sound stage... as stated before I'm aware it creates positioning in the other directions. An FR response equal in both left and right ears doesn't create left to right soundstage... only possibly muddies it.

 

[RRod]

Interestingly enough, people will often report, upon trying it finally, that crossfeed reduces the apparent soundstage. So we're finally trying to put back in a bit of the IID and ITD cues, but people perceive a decrease in whatever latent quality they're referring to as "soundstage" in headphones. This is another reason why I have tended more and more to think it's really all FR coloration that people are making such a fuss about. It's also another reason why talking about this is a bit difficult, because the concept itself is perceptual and thus muddy.

 

[BiggerHead]

Well, there's nothing natural about stereo crossfeed.   Real crossfeed exists, but for a real localized sound source it doesn't travel to two microphones and get re-emmitted radially two speakers at different separation,  both at different locations from the source image itself.  I never fully bought into the whole cross feed thing or the notion that speakers are better at this in all ways.  In principle headphones clearly should be more capable (minus motion issues which aren't entirely correct for speakers anyway because of the situation I just descrimbed), if given the right inputs, and it's not even clear to me that you need a "binaural" recording (with a dummy head) for this to be true, just a good stereo recording.   
 
Some things are muddy and some aren't.  You can't have information that doesn't exist.  

 

[sinesweep]

Well I never put Staging as a necessary component into selecting a headphone. Same goes for imaging. No matter what, it aint gonna happen. It's physics, the time alignment and signal propagation from the sound source to your ears will make it impossible to get anywhere near real life or home audio systems. Your headphone would need to be cone shaped and originating in front of you, then you'd like an idiot and what's good about that? Also with headphones, open or closed you deal with nasty reflections prior to arriving your ear which destroys those 2 characteristics. You have to accept that no matter how hard you try it won't be good. The thing I look for is tonal accuracy and frequency balance, to me, even in ProSound, those are 2 MOST important factors in sound reproduction. If it doesn't sound real, then your brain will immediately detect that and tell you it's fake, then when that happens nothing else really matters.

 

[Baxide]

  Headphones don't naturally have some of the cues we use for determining where sound comes from (and thus the apparent width of a soundstage*):

It might be worth trying out cans like the HD800, MDR-F1, etc. I have often turned round to see what that noise was behind me, only to end up embarrassed that the "noise" was in fact coming from the music.

 

[RRod]

  It might be worth trying out cans like the HD800, MDR-F1, etc. I have often turned round to see what that noise was behind me, only to end up embarrassed that the "noise" was in fact coming from the music.

 
But that's the thing: had you been listening on stereo speakers you would not have perceived the sound as coming from behind you, because the extra cues that the speakers give out would be screaming "in front of you" to your brain.
 
HD800 are good cans, though.

 

[Baxide]

   
But that's the thing: had you been listening on stereo speakers you would not have perceived the sound as coming from behind you, because the extra cues that the speakers give out would be screaming "in front of you" to your brain.
 
HD800 are good cans, though.

As a matter of fact, my speakers and amp combination give me an even more jaw dropping 3D soundstage.

 

[mindbomb]

The big 3 things to look for are large drivers, open back headphones, and angled drivers. What you ultimately want is the least amount of reflections. The reflections will hint that the drivers are right outside your ears, and that's a fact you want to obscure as much as possible.
 
large drivers gives you a more planar wavefront that minimizes reflections. open back removes the reflections inside the cup, and angled drivers should minimize reflections from the outer ear.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Interestingly enough, people will often report, upon trying it finally, that crossfeed reduces the apparent soundstage. So we're finally trying to put back in a bit of the IID and ITD cues, but people perceive a decrease in whatever latent quality they're referring to as "soundstage" in headphones. This is another reason why I have tended more and more to think it's really all FR coloration that people are making such a fuss about. It's also another reason why talking about this is a bit difficult, because the concept itself is perceptual and thus muddy.

How'd my 50 degree stereo crossfeed impulses go?

http://www.head-fi.org/t/555263/foobar2000-dolby-headphone-config-comment-discuss/810#post_12496793

 

[gregorio]

  As a matter of fact, my speakers and amp combination give me an even more jaw dropping 3D soundstage.

 
If you're getting sound coming from behind you with stereo speakers, then you've got some pretty severe phase problems with your speakers and/or room acoustics. I would find that pretty "jaw dropping" as well .... but not in a good way! I'm really quite surprised that you would actually prefer what appears to be a quite seriously damaged sound reproduction, although not totally shocked, as I have seen audiophiles prefer seriously degraded SQ before. When we talk about creating a 3D soundstage (or stereo-image), we mean left/right and present/distant but even the present sounds should still be in front of you, as well as the distant ones of course.
 
G

 

[Joe Bloggs]

But it is possible to place virtual sound sources behind the listener even with stereo speakers...

 

[gregorio]

But it is possible to place virtual sound sources behind the listener even with stereo speakers...

 
In theory it is but to achieve it means adding a lot of phase incoherency. The results would be highly unpredictable given consumer room acoustics and mono compatibility would be out the window, so it's avoided in commercial releases. A little additional widening in practise is the most that's ever reasonably commonly applied and even that can cause issues in some rooms.
 
G

 

[Baxide]

   
If you're getting sound coming from behind you with stereo speakers, then you've got some pretty severe phase problems with your speakers and/or room acoustics. I would find that pretty "jaw dropping" as well .... but not in a good way!
 
G

You are quite quick off the mark to condemn the audio system of someone else, without having any experience of it, or even taking serious the efforts of the recording engineers to deliver a pleasant listening experience. You should get hold of a selection of the Chesky Audiophile test discs and spend some quality time listening to them. Those discs are widely used by many on Head-Fi as a reference. I have successfully used them to put together my system, and set up my listening environment. If according to you I am actually experiencing a severe phase and acoustic problem, then mr. Chesky has a lot to answer for.   

 

[gregorio]

  You are quite quick off the mark to condemn the audio system of someone else, without having any experience of it ...

 
If a car goes faster in reverse than it does in it's forward gears I don't need to have any personal experience of it to know that it has a serious problem.
 

  ... or even taking serious the efforts of the recording engineers to deliver a pleasant listening experience.

 
A "serious" recording engineer would not introduce the amount of phase incoherency required to make sounds appear to come from behind you with stereo speakers because it would not deliver a "pleasant listening experience" for the vast majority.
 

  Those discs are widely used by many on Head-Fi as a reference.

 
I have little/no interest in products aimed specifically at extreme audiophiles or in what extreme audiophiles use as a reference. I am interested in the quality and pleasure of the recording/reproduction of the sound and music itself, not in the sound of audiophile equipment.
 
G