[bequietjk]

I love my B&Ws. Personal preference tho xD

 

[nuraman00]

I love my B&Ws. Personal preference tho xD

What model do you have?

I chose the B&W P7 Headphones in 2014, after listening to and comparing them against 2 others.

In 2016, when I was looking for speakers, and having had a good experience with B&W as a brand, I looked into them again.

But after some feedback in this thread, I ended up trialing two other ones, then picked the Emotiva Airmotiv 6s.

So I'm curious to read your experience with whatever model B&W speakers you chose.

 

[Digitalis]

There are a number of Klipsch 2-way passive speakers around (check Audio Advisor, Crutchfield, etc...read user comments). I've never heard any of them.

You should remain aware that, if these are to be used in a desktop environment, you're putting horn tweeters 2-3 feet from your ears. That may or may not be a good idea. The reviews & user comments may/may not hint at this.

Most speakers are not optimized/designed for nearfield use. However, some of those can be very good in desktop applications. Other speakers are designed from the start for nearfield use, and of course have high odds of success for that.

Of all the reading I've done about Klipsch 2-ways, the comments that come to mind are "dynamic" and (sometimes) "accurate" or "bright." The latter may or may not be real. Sometimes a low-distortion, extremely efficient speaker can really "jump at your ears" and to some, that can sound "hard" or "bright." Just recycling old user comments here...never heard any of these.

If you are using purely class D amplification then yes, Klipsch speakers can sound harsh at high volume - but that is largely an inherent issue with class D amplifiers. I have found [ I own a pair of Klipsch RP160Ms] tube amps and class A amps and A/B amplifiers sound great with them even at high volume. My listening position is about 1.2m with a bit of toe-in, I have the RP-160M speakers set up on stands on the sides of my desk, I would agree that putting a pair of speakers directly on your desk isn't a particularly good idea...unless you have a huge desk with room to find the sweet spot for them*. Most "computer desks" desks do not have the kind of real estate to handle anything with a footprint bigger than a Klipsch RP-15.


*front ported, rear ported,sealed enclosure... all have their own proclivities when it comes to placement.

 

[Pharmaboy]

If you are using purely class D amplification then yes, Klipsch speakers can sound harsh at high volume - but that is largely an inherent issue with class D amplifiers. I have found [ I own a pair of Klipsch RP160Ms] tube amps and class A amps and A/B amplifiers sound great with them even at high volume. My listening position is about 1.2m with a bit of toe-in, I have the RP-160M speakers set up on stands on the sides of my desk, I would agree that putting a pair of speakers directly on your desk isn't a particularly good idea...unless you have a huge desk with room to find the sweet spot for them*. Most "computer desks" desks do not have the kind of real estate to handle anything with a footprint bigger than a Klipsch RP-15.


*front ported, rear ported,sealed enclosure... all have their own proclivities when it comes to placement.

Have to reply about class D amps. Late last year/early this year I did a ton of research into class D amps for my desktop because:

• I planned to buy my first ever passive speakers/monitors for the desktop (ATC SCM12 Pros, big passive 2-way studio monitors).
• Thus, I would need an amp, and not just any amp--an amp that would fit into my very space-constrained desktop (I have 2 large AB amps kicking around...both are way too large for the desktop). Thus, I ended up researching class D amps.

What I found is the typical bifurcated audio market for a given technology: at the low end, ICE-amps and other low-end class D amps can be had for <$500. Some of these share the core class D technology/core with higher end amps, but their power supplies and input sections are skimpy/primitive, doing almost nothing to "voice" the amp away from the early harsh/cold class D sound. These amps certainly save space (they're quite small), but typically don't sound very good.

At the higher end, you find big name audio companies building pretty serious amps around class D power modules, including newer/more expensive variants such as NCore. Audio companies like PS Audio, Rowland, Bel Canto, NAD, and Merrill have put their designs skills to work producing uber-powerful class D amps that try to sound very good, at least competitive with top class A or AB amp designs around.

I ended up getting a used Wyred4Sound ST-500 amp (250/500WPC into 8 ohms & 4 ohms, respectively). I read enough reviews (one is linked below) to know this was one of those emerging class D designs described as sounding quite musical, not harsh & cold. It's also said to have very good bass. All this is true, if my ears are the judge. To save space, I have the ST-500 installed standing on one side. I couldn't do this with an AB amp because it would mess up the heat dissipation--but there's close to zero heat from this class D amp, so no problem.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wyred5/st500.html

Don't give up on class D. It's really coming into its own these days.

 

[Digitalis]

Don't give up on class D. It's really coming into its own these days.

That review was from 2010. I have recently had a chance to listen to the Schiit Vidar, a Class A/B amp 100W @ 8 ohm. Going price 699 USD, It's not bad at all, and can drive pretty much anything in the realm of bookshelf speakers.

 

[Pharmaboy]

Yes, the review was from 2010. Class D amps have been around since the '80s...and getting better all the time, at least in the upper tier of the mkt.

Glad you like your Schiit amp. You're right in saying pretty much everything in the realm of bookshelf speakers would be just fine w/this amp.

The ATCs aren't bookshelf speakers, at least not in the usual sense: though they're 2-way, they're also large, heavy, acoustic suspension/sealed design, built like tanks (ie, passive monitors used in studio work).

So I knew going in that ~100WPC might not cut it w/these beasts (they're rated at 85 dB/1M efficiency--that's very low). When I crank them, which isn't often, I didn't want the amp to get pushed into clipping. With the ST-500, I'm in more danger of deafness & concussion at high level than amp clipping!

 

[KungFuNat]

audioengine

 

[mikerrr]

endifier 7..1 are very good

 

[nuraman00]

Have to reply about class D amps. Late last year/early this year I did a ton of research into class D amps for my desktop because:

• I planned to buy my first ever passive speakers/monitors for the desktop (ATC SCM12 Pros, big passive 2-way studio monitors).
• Thus, I would need an amp, and not just any amp--an amp that would fit into my very space-constrained desktop (I have 2 large AB amps kicking around...both are way too large for the desktop). Thus, I ended up researching class D amps.

What I found is the typical bifurcated audio market for a given technology: at the low end, ICE-amps and other low-end class D amps can be had for <$500. Some of these share the core class D technology/core with higher end amps, but their power supplies and input sections are skimpy/primitive, doing almost nothing to "voice" the amp away from the early harsh/cold class D sound. These amps certainly save space (they're quite small), but typically don't sound very good.

At the higher end, you find big name audio companies building pretty serious amps around class D power modules, including newer/more expensive variants such as NCore. Audio companies like PS Audio, Rowland, Bel Canto, NAD, and Merrill have put their designs skills to work producing uber-powerful class D amps that try to sound very good, at least competitive with top class A or AB amp designs around.

I ended up getting a used Wyred4Sound ST-500 amp (250/500WPC into 8 ohms & 4 ohms, respectively). I read enough reviews (one is linked below) to know this was one of those emerging class D designs described as sounding quite musical, not harsh & cold. It's also said to have very good bass. All this is true, if my ears are the judge. To save space, I have the ST-500 installed standing on one side. I couldn't do this with an AB amp because it would mess up the heat dissipation--but there's close to zero heat from this class D amp, so no problem.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wyred5/st500.html

Don't give up on class D. It's really coming into its own these days.

What are your thoughts on active Class D speakers vs. passive Class D, if any?

My only experience with Class D is when I tested the JBL LSR308 (class D) with the Emotiva Airmotiv 6s (Class AB). The sound was similar on most of the 22 tracks I compared. However, I couldn't get rid of the hum that the JBL's produced, so that was the deciding factor.

 

[Pharmaboy]

What are your thoughts on active Class D speakers vs. passive Class D, if any?

My only experience with Class D is when I tested the JBL LSR308 (class D) with the Emotiva Airmotiv 6s (Class AB). The sound was similar on most of the 22 tracks I compared. However, I couldn't get rid of the hum that the JBL's produced, so that was the deciding factor.

I've had 3-4 different powered monitor/speaker pairs, none powered by Class D amps.

On the desktop I've had just 1 set of passive monitors (the ATCs) which are powered by a pretty good/not inexpensive standalone class D amp, the Wyred4Sound.

For pure sound quality, my vote would be on the passive monitors + class D amps, though like anything else, you have to pick the specific products carefully (some passive speakers/monitors sound great while others sound like barf; same w/amps). The reason for my preference is that separating the amp from speaker/monitors means the designers of each can lavish more care in materials/parts selection in their products--they're not confined to the on-board monitor. But the cost of this is space (I had to find space on desktop for the standalone amp).

Then again, I didn't investigate the high end of powered monitors, so I'm no doubt missing things there (ie, pricey Focals, Genelecs, ATCs).

 

[nuraman00]

I've had 3-4 different powered monitor/speaker pairs, none powered by Class D amps.

On the desktop I've had just 1 set of passive monitors (the ATCs) which are powered by a pretty good/not inexpensive standalone class D amp, the Wyred4Sound.

For pure sound quality, my vote would be on the passive monitors + class D amps, though like anything else, you have to pick the specific products carefully (some passive speakers/monitors sound great while others sound like barf; same w/amps). The reason for my preference is that separating the amp from speaker/monitors means the designers of each can lavish more care in materials/parts selection in their products--they're not confined to the on-board monitor. But the cost of this is space (I had to find space on desktop for the standalone amp).

Then again, I didn't investigate the high end of powered monitors, so I'm no doubt missing things there (ie, pricey Focals, Genelecs, ATCs).

Makes sense.

Your earlier post said "Don't give up on Class D's.".

Is there some concern about Class D's?

When I was researching what speakers to get in 2016, I had approached it by looking at a few well rated models. I then picked 2, bought both set them up side by side, then made a decision on which one I wanted to keep.

Others may have more specific criteria, as in they want speakers with a certain Class amp. So they might only look at ones with certain class amps.

Also, I just saw the price for a pair of your ATC SCM12 Pro's. Were they $1,750+ for the pair?

It looks like my Airmotiv 6s are similar in size/weight as yours, in terms of space.

 

[Pharmaboy]

Makes sense.

Your earlier post said "Don't give up on Class D's.".

Is there some concern about Class D's?

When I was researching what speakers to get in 2016, I had approached it by looking at a few well rated models. I then picked 2, bought both set them up side by side, then made a decision on which one I wanted to keep.

Others may have more specific criteria, as in they want speakers with a certain Class amp. So they might only look at ones with certain class amps.

Also, I just saw the price for a pair of your ATC SCM12 Pro's. Were they $1,750+ for the pair?

It looks like my Airmotiv 6s are similar in size/weight as yours, in terms of space.

Class D amplifiers have a long and checkered past in the trad audiophile community. They've been around for decades, but for a long time were said to sound dry, bright, parched, hamonically thin, all that. Helps to remember they were being compared to mega-buck class A or A/B amps on mega-buck 2-channel speaker systems. For a long time class D amps didn't measure up to class A or A/B. Until things started to really change 8-9 years ago when companies like Bel Canto & NAD started coming out with class D amps that were not only built around a new generation of (said to be better-sounding) class D cores: but whose power and analog front end sections were specifically developed and "voiced" for use w/class D cores. So starting about 8-9 years ago, class D amps that sounded quite good, even competitive w/class A or A/B amps, started to become available.

Now you can find some extremely well reviewed & compact class D amps that compete reasonably well with trad amps. My Wyred4Sound ST500 is one such. BTW, the W4S isn't tiny by any means (~17" W x 11"D x 3.5"H). But completely unlike class A or AB amps, it has near zero heat output and thus can be used on its side...I have it snugged up against my big desktop, so that it takes up minimal desktop space.

Re selection of powered monitors or passive speakers/monitors, I had some strict criteria the candidate pairs had to fulfill, which actually made it very hard to find candidates:

• I wanted a sealed/acoustic suspension design, not the usual ported design--because the bass from sealed 2-ways just sounds tighter to me, also far less likely to interact w/my too-close back wall
• I also wanted at least a 6" bass/midrange driver. Even though I cross the speakers over to a sub @80hz, I find that the quality of mid-bass & upper bass produced by a larger driver sound less strained & "shouty" than from smaller drivers
• Depth measurement was critical...any more than 11" deep and it just wouldn't work

I got the ATCs used, so no, I didn't pay $1,750/'pr. Think I paid $1000, and worth every penny. They're incredible speakers. They certainly have some of that forensic/revealing quality that studio monitors tend to have--but they're also not bright, have a spectacular amt of midrange depth/transparency, and can sound musical when the music was well-recorded.

Those AirMotive monitors were on my short list of "interesting but won't fit" models (they're 12.75" deep...deal-breaker). I admit that I was also concerned about the sound of the EMIT-type tweeter, which in many studio monitors is said to sound hard/bright & tending to dominate the monitor's "voicing."

A couple candidates in the same class of powered monitors that really got me interested were:

• Hedd Model 07 (pretty large, expensive, front-ported vs sealed, class D amps on board); and
• Quad S2 (smaller, less expensive, 5" bass/mid driver, back-ported, said to sound pretty amazing)

FYI, I prowled the Internet for reviews and user comments regarding any monitors/speakers of interest to me. I was specifically looking for monitors/speakers that even typical music mix/studio types occasionally described as pleasing to listen to.

 

[nuraman00]

I've really liked your responses in this thread. They're very informative. And prompt, too.

On a side note, I just saw a notification option for this: "Persistent thread subscription email notifications

This will send an email for every reply to subscribed threads, even if you don't visit the thread between replies."

I think this is new. This is what I prefer. There were a few times where I'd get the initial notification, but wouldn't get any ones after that if I hadn't visited the thread again. Sometimes when going through emails, I'd see the notification, but wouldn't have time at that moment to engage myself in the thread, so I'd tell myself to come back to it later. But then without any follow up notifications for an active thread, I'd forget about it.

Now, when there is an active discussion within a thread, I can keep getting reminders that I need to check this thread.

Can you post some pictures of a sealed vs. ported speakers? Maybe a specific model of something you would have considered if it weren't ported?

I too wanted at least a 6" driver.

I also regret not having a 2.1 system for comparison, especially since I'd come from a 2.1 system for the previous 17 years before getting these Airmotivs in 2016. I think I could still use a subwoofer for 5-8% of my music, as well as a DAC, but those are future wishlist items, not something I'm looking to buy right now.

 

[Shane D]

I researched heavily for many weeks and decided to go with the Vanatoo Transparent Zero's.

Should be here by the end of the week.

I chose these because of size, flexibility of connections, DAC to help my motherboard and hundreds of amazing reviews. I also ordered four yoga blocks to play with speaker placing.

Really looking forward to getting these.

Shane D

 

[nuraman00]

I researched heavily for many weeks and decided to go with the Vanatoo Transparent Zero's.

Should be here by the end of the week.

I chose these because of size, flexibility of connections, DAC to help my motherboard and hundreds of amazing reviews. I also ordered four yoga blocks to play with speaker placing.

Really looking forward to getting these.

Shane D

Great. Looking forward to hearing from you after you have them in place.