What’s the Rationale?
Sep 25, 2023 at 9:32 AM Post #16 of 105
When people believe they are burning-in cables, headphones, amps and what not, they are in fact burning-in their ears, biases, expectations and placebo effect. That's the rationale.

If changes I've experienced with some of my iem's (usually with a DD, couldn't say with all BA with certainty) are brain burn-in why is it it can take several months for them to sound 'correct' and why doesn't the process need to start over again when I don't listen to a pair for a few months, but I don't - once 'burned-in' they then sound fine with none of the unevenness they first had.
Cables are another story I can't personally say with certainty I've heard change over time or from swopping to a different cable, certainly not to the degree others state such as altering the highs or bass, I'd be interested to know how a cable can single out certain frequencies to correct them. Many say swopping cables makes a difference and slightly changes something's signature but I rarely hear anyone saying for example - 'that cable really messed up the bass/treble' - changing a cable usually always results in a positive change.
 
Oct 8, 2023 at 7:37 AM Post #18 of 105
If changes I've experienced with some of my iem's (usually with a DD, couldn't say with all BA with certainty) are brain burn-in why is it it can take several months for them to sound 'correct'
Because it can take many hours for your brain to acclimatise. So days, weeks or even months in some cases, depending on the individual and how concentrated those “many hours” are. Floyd Toole and others have (scientifically) investigated this phenomenon.
and why doesn't the process need to start over again when I don't listen to a pair for a few months, but I don't - once 'burned-in' they then sound fine with none of the unevenness they first had.
Because we have memory. Again, this has been scientifically investigated and also pops up consistently in other studies not specifically investigating this. For example, I read a study some time ago investigating generic HRTFs. IE. How test subjects responded to a HRTF that wasn’t specifically theirs (a generic or someone else’s HRTF). Some of the test subjects weren’t bothered and still perceived the “spatialisation” to an acceptable (to them) degree. Most didn’t perceive the “spatialisation” as intended and were bothered. However, some of these were able to acclimatise over an extended period and achieve an acceptable perception of “spatialisation”. Interestingly, those subjects were still “acclimatised” many months later, not having experienced that incorrect HRTF since the original testing. I don’t recall the name of the paper off the top of my head but it shouldn’t be too difficult to find again.

G
 
Oct 8, 2023 at 1:49 PM Post #19 of 105
For example, I read a study some time ago investigating generic HRTFs. IE. How test subjects responded to a HRTF that wasn’t specifically theirs (a generic or someone else’s HRTF). Some of the test subjects weren’t bothered and still perceived the “spatialisation” to an acceptable (to them) degree. Most didn’t perceive the “spatialisation” as intended and were bothered. However, some of these were able to acclimatise over an extended period and achieve an acceptable perception of “spatialisation”. Interestingly, those subjects were still “acclimatised” many months later, not having experienced that incorrect HRTF since the original testing. I don’t recall the name of the paper off the top of my head but it shouldn’t be too difficult to find again.

G
Interesting! I wonder if some people have an spatial acclimatisation gene making this possible? :)
 
Oct 8, 2023 at 2:06 PM Post #20 of 105
cables do absolutely nothing as we all know. Not for like a 3 foot headphone cable. No chance.
I think I measured the 10 foot cable of my Sennheiser HD 598 headphones to be 1.5 ohms. Since this headphone model is super-sensitive to impedance in the electric circuit it is part of, this amount of resistance actually can perhaps make a just audible difference. However, its not like other cables have very different resistance levels. Changing the cable to a 1 ohm or 2 ohm cable would make hardly any audible difference and as we know room temperature supraconductors don't exist meaning zero ohm cables aren't an option.

Theoretically cables do "something", but in practise considering the limits of human hearing and were the real problems of audio are, that "something" very rarely has any significance. Super-long thin cables with very low impedance speakers is an example when cables have practical effect, but it takes an idiot to use thin long cables with low impedance speakers!
 
Oct 12, 2023 at 3:54 AM Post #21 of 105
Interesting!
Indeed. While a fair amount of research was done in the 1970’s/80’s, a lot more has been done more recently. This is mainly due to the hearing aid market, which is currently worth about $6 billion and is growing rapidly, and the very large corporate investment in developing Augmented/Virtual Reality. Unlike so much of the false assertions/marketing in the audiophile world, which is effectively “done and dusted” research/science from many years, decades or even centuries ago, this is an area of audio with very significant ongoing research and therefore is indeed “interesting” from a scientific standpoint!
I wonder if some people have a spatial acclimatisation gene making this possible? :)
Although meant as a joke, there obviously isn’t a “spatial acclimatisation gene” as such, it is an interesting area. Not so much genetically, as it seems we are all capable of “spatial acclimatisation”, even those with acquired hearing impairments but interesting from the point of view of how we acclimatise, how long it takes and what affects it. For example, acclimatisation is drastically improved (both the speed of acquisition and the accuracy) with a visual reference. EG. Presenting a visual cue of the intended sound location together with the aural (binaural) cue.

You might find “This Paper” interesting, which is a relatively brief summary of some of the research as of about 2020.

G
 
Oct 12, 2023 at 6:31 AM Post #22 of 105
Because it can take many hours for your brain to acclimatise. So days, weeks or even months in some cases, depending on the individual and how concentrated those “many hours” are. Floyd Toole and others have (scientifically) investigated this phenomenon.

Can't say for sure what's going on and can't provide any evidence of physical change. I own half a dozen iem's and after several hundred hours they then sound pretty much fixed. If it was all a case of acclimatising I question how some iem's not used for long periods (and using others for hours each day) don't need many hours to re-acclimatise to, but I find they don't. One set sounded thin/harsh when new, so much that I hardly used them, only listening occasionally, but now after some more use they no longer sound unpleasant.
 
Oct 12, 2023 at 6:53 AM Post #23 of 105
Can't say for sure what's going on and can't provide any evidence of physical change. I own half a dozen iem's and after several hundred hours they then sound pretty much fixed. If it was all a case of acclimatising I question how some iem's not used for long periods (and using others for hours each day) don't need many hours to re-acclimatise to, but I find they don't. One set sounded thin/harsh when new, so much that I hardly used them, only listening occasionally, but now after some more use they no longer sound unpleasant.
Anything is possible. But as for many cases, you should refrain from drawing too firm a conclusion on something that was not well controlled. We could argue that the IEM sounded bad because when new you:
-listened too loud in search of the details and differences
-had fitting issues (broken seal, not deep enough so some resonances were at a perhaps more sensitive frequency) that would maybe roll off the bass and have you compensating by again increasing the volume level to get enough low end.
Maybe your memory exaggerates how different the sound was?
Maybe it's indeed habituation, and you can keep it a long time, like a song or how to ride a bike.
Maybe a little ear wax and dust have increased the damping effect of whatever filter is in the path (if there is any). That usually lowers the high freqs if almost clogged, or just tame the resonances if the damping value is just increased without blocking anything.
Maybe wax in your ears are the significant change over time.
Maybe you got, like I did once, an IEM that didn't like the trip to your house ( in my case, the box was so damn cold when I got it). I tried the IEM right away, and it had what I can only describe as a nasty treble buzzing sound(I described the cymbals as dropping a bunch of forks on the floor). I was ready to send them back, I tried them again the next day (last chance!) and the sound was fine...


All that and probably more could have caused your experience IMO.


Edit: because, OMG what language was that? I need to proofread all my posts.
 
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Oct 12, 2023 at 7:57 AM Post #24 of 105
If it was all a case of acclimatising I question how some iem's not used for long periods (and using others for hours each day) don't need many hours to re-acclimatise to, but I find they don't.
Even assuming you haven’t fallen prey to one of the all too common fallacies castle mentions, then again, the answer is “memory”. Once you’ve acclimatised then you’ve acclimatised, you’ve experienced it and don’t need to “re-acclimatise”.

I don’t know of any studies that have studied the duration of the acclimatisation over the course of a lifetime or even decades, such a study wouldn’t be very practical obviously. But many have shown it’s at least many months and I believe Toole did some work demonstrating it was at least a few years and some reliable evidence indicates many years. I vaguely recall a study (or article) on the effects of first experiences of anechoic chambers, which can be quite extreme/dramatic but disappear after acclimatisation and aren’t experienced again, even after more than a decade of not visiting an anechoic chamber.

G
 
Oct 12, 2023 at 11:33 AM Post #25 of 105
Similar thing happened to me, First time to Disneyland Paris, It ended with me feeling bad in the evening and being operated for appendicitis the very next day. But I went to Disneyland a few more times since and didn't get appendicitis again.
A clear case of good adaptation. :imp::imp::imp:

I'm not off-topic, as I also apply impeccable rational and logic.
 
Oct 12, 2023 at 12:03 PM Post #26 of 105
Anything is possible. But as for many cases, you should refrain from drawing too firm a conclusion on something that was not well controlled.
I'm not definitely saying the iem's changed as I'm aware our ears aren't a constant, though it has happened more than once and also for Daps.

We could argue that the IEM sounded bad because when new you:
-listened too loud in search of the details and differences
One thing I don't do is listen too loudly (though an otolaryngologist would say I definitely do), especially just to catch details - even if my ears are slightly blocked, playing too loud quickly gives me a headache/discomfort so I know to turn the volume down and wait until my ears are clear.
-had fitting issues (broken seal, not deep enough so some resonances were at a perhaps more sensitive frequency) that would maybe roll off the bass and have you compensating by again increasing the volume level to get enough low end.
Fitting issues has much to do with it and initially I thought I'd cracked it by using double flange eartips which gave a better seal. However after some more use I can use other ordinary tips.
Maybe your memory exaggerate how much different the sound was?
The sound they gave was grating, rarely do I get that from any new iem, being an experienced listener even slight differences quickly reveal themselves.
Maybe it's indeed habituation, and you can keep it a long time, like a song or how to ride a bike.
I don't think you can compare riding a bike to listening with multiple sets of earphones which have different tunings - you're having to learn how each sounds and decide wether they sound right (agreeable).
Maybe a little ear wax and dust have increased the damping effect of whatever filter is in the path (if there is any). That usually lowers the high freqs if almost clogged, or just tame the resonances if the damping value is just increased without blocking anything.
This probably happens a lot but on one occasion changing tips mid listening helped enormously.
Maybe you got, like I did once, an IEM that didn't like the trip to my house (the box was so damn cold when I got it). I tried the IEM right away, and it had what I can only describe as a nasty treble buzzing sound(I described the cymbals as dropping a bunch of forks on the floor). I was ready to send them back, I tried them again the next day (last chance!) and the sound was fine...
This is a good point but can't explain multiple playing at room temperature.
All that and probably more could have caused your experience IMO.
But it can't be said for sure that use isn't a factor even if it's a very small change.
 
Oct 12, 2023 at 12:06 PM Post #27 of 105
such a study wouldn’t be very practical obviously. But many have shown it’s at least many months and I believe Toole did some work demonstrating it was at least a few years and some reliable evidence indicates many years. I vaguely recall a study (or article) on the effects of first experiences of anechoic chambers, which can be quite extreme/dramatic but disappear after acclimatisation and aren’t experienced again, even after more than a decade of not visiting an anechoic chamber.

So materials and moving parts can never change? Do decades old headphones sound as good (or better) as when they were relatively new?
 
Oct 12, 2023 at 1:27 PM Post #28 of 105
But it can't be said for sure that use isn't a factor even if it's a very small change.
Yes and no. We obviously don't have data on all IEMs and what when how something turns out to be audibly different. But we do have several people who tried to find (as in, measure and test under some modicum of control) changes over time. My longest running test has been over 2 years with an ER4SR, where I get changes that are relevant, but once I change the filters for new ones and use the old triflange I only keep aside to use for measuring an Ety, I get results close enough to wonder if the differences that remain aren't entirely caused by slight placements and ambient noise differences. (it's hell to try and insert an IEM into a coupler twice with the absolute exact same insertion and tip deformation. The trebles at least are super hard to keep identical, for example. So a test need something big enough of with a profile odd enough to appear beyond the typical small differences we get no matter what.
I went half mad trying to do a proper test with a pair of headphones. The pads would keep changing the sound with more time spent clamped on my mini DSP E.A.R.S. So I tried to remove them every time then put them on, count 5mn and measure to hopefully remain with a stable amount of pad compression and driver distance. It was a mess and placement ruined everything I tried to measure. Again with the difficulty of placing something twice at the very same place, an issue that exist on our heads too. But somehow we usually don't notice those very real, measurable (so apparently bigger than burn in changes in my cases) and often technically audible(at least if the differences were directly A/B). It's just that people don't think about that, don't focus on it, while some are a little bit obsessed with the concept of burn in.

Anyway, After 2 hours of messing up with false good ideas for the headphone burn in test (real play time of the headphone was maybe under 5mn in total as I used short sweeps for measurements, and a square wave to help rapidly adjust the placements), I decided to remove the pads entirely and clamp the headphones onto the rig with actual clamps, just so it wouldn't move at all over time. I also remove the silicone ears to make sure those wouldn't give in over time. I didn't even keep those tests, as they revealed nothing to me. I did get changes, but I always do if I look at magnitudes small enough. It's the kind and magnitudes I also get when measuring just about anything several times at different moments of the day(ambient noise, changes in the electrical grid, time that my ADC spent turned on, Gremlins messing with my tests, etc).

It's the kind of stuff I actually wish to find, Because Of course I expect and know that a moving part will change over time. Same with may high-res stuff and night and day cable whatever. Except I did find cable impacts, usually they're simply highlighting an extremely unstable device or some IEM with ludicrous impedance curve reaching single digit impedance values somewhere. Those impacts I found, heard (under somewhat controlled conditions) and measured. And they're actually predicted by good old Ohm's law for the most part. More can happen, but Impedance does explain very many cases.
With burn in, I just got disappointed after 3 IEMs and one headphone, and I lost interest too much to really look for better equipment and testing methods. I'm at the point where I think it's possible for something to change significantly (as in, so audible, someone does notice over days), but if that actually happens, I would suggest getting rid of the IEM. I value stability, it's the first step toward fidelity.

In my example with headphones, we could argue that the few minutes of playtime to set things up were enough to have the main changes already gone. Or we could wonder if the maker didn't have them play a bunch of hours before mounting them onto headphones, because if there is a defect or a failure, it tends to happen at an early stage and testing them would probably greatly reduce the number of returns for defect/failure. We could also wonder if I suck badly at testing stuff and if the important variables were even on my radar(an idea brought up many times, even by people way smarter and better informed than me). Or we could wonder if my orientation in audio makes me go for the tested stable, gears with good objective background, so they're less likely to exhibit odd behaviors like stuff made out of chinesium, or products from a small brand with one guy tuning and making stuff by ear.
Again, just consider how many more possibilities probably exist beyond what feels like a plausible answer in your mind. The fewer the controls, the more you can probably find.

Back to Ety, I got so comfy with the idea that they were super stable, that I often use them with a known voltage into them to calibrate REW before testing something else. In principle they do change, metal has elasticity, but it's not perfect, IEMs will receive shocks(falls or whatever, I dropped my old SE215 on the ground just yesterday and whined about it for half an hour). Magnetic stuff tend to lose some of their force over time(veeeery sloooowly. And ear wax will be vaporised/atomised or whatever the correct word is to say that the vibrations from music will turn some of it into a sort of mist that is likely to go beyond a damper and into the driver itself. Temperature, atmospheric pressure and hygrometry are relevant enough for some measurements about audio having to take them into account(I don't because I'm a noob amateur with crap tools).
Things cannot remain static. And yet, it's so damn hard to demonstrate the kind of changes that would explain the legions of people, dead certain it's the transducer that changed and not them, their use habits, their excitement about new toys, or just flawed and evolving memories.
 
Oct 12, 2023 at 4:10 PM Post #29 of 105
Indeed. While a fair amount of research was done in the 1970’s/80’s, a lot more has been done more recently. This is mainly due to the hearing aid market, which is currently worth about $6 billion and is growing rapidly,
A well known iem maker started out making hearing aids.
but interesting from the point of view of how we acclimatise, how long it takes and what affects it. For example, acclimatisation is drastically improved (both the speed of acquisition and the accuracy) with a visual reference.

When I was a kid there was a tv program about dystopian societal change and the intro was a burning car slowly crashing into a farm gate accompanied by gentle piano music. It was incredibly powerful and I noted how the scene was contradictory with the violent act and soft comforting music.
 
Oct 12, 2023 at 7:03 PM Post #30 of 105
A well known iem maker started out making hearing aids.
If you mean Jabra, yes. I have a pair of their higher end IEMs and quite impressed with them, particularly the software which adjusts each side to your hearing profile.
 

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